Gunn or Wesley - which did worse?

[bespangeled]

Not Gunn or Fred; but Cordy. He made no effort to talk to her. He just decided she couldn't be trusted; when in reality she could have been the one to point him in the right direction. Cordy was around when the Buffy will die at the hands of the Master prophecy wasn't as it seemed and she could have easily talked to Willow or Giles about it.

I just think Wes let his personal feelings get in the way of finding out all the info.

Cordy was gone with no means of contacting her. Yes, If Cordy was in any way available then the whole situation would have changed. But when she went off with Groo, Angel told her not to even let him know where she was.

But she came back to life so they know that prophecies aren't always what they seem. If Wes had reached out to his friends it's very likely someone should have remembered and pointed him in the right direction. A 5 minute talk with Cordy, Giles or Willow would have brought up that info. Wes decided not to talk to anyone about it, decided that they weren't trustworthy enough....

Which friends would have known Buffy came back to life - well, Cordy who was gone, and Angelus who may be there. Giles was in England - and I doubt his answer would be blow off the prophecy and risk Angelus attacking. Willow was in the midst of that godawful addiction metaphor and most likely wouldn't have even called back. And if she did call back - that would be a recipe for disaster.

I don't think he thought the others - Gunn, Fred, and Lorne weren't trustworthy. He was protecting them. Letting them know would have put them on Angelus's radar. There's no way they could have acted naturally even if they didn't blurt out their suspicions. It was the same reason he didn't tell them that Connor had sent Angel to the bottom of the sea. They weren't in any danger, but if they knew they would have reacted.

 

[Anointed One]

Cordy was gone with no means of contacting her. Yes, If Cordy was in any way available then the whole situation would have changed. But when she went off with Groo, Angel told her not to even let him know where she was.



Which friends would have known Buffy came back to life - well, Cordy who was gone, and Angelus who may be there. Giles was in England - and I doubt his answer would be blow off the prophecy and risk Angelus attacking. Willow was in the midst of that godawful addiction metaphor and most likely wouldn't have even called back. And if she did call back - that would be a recipe for disaster.

I don't think he thought the others - Gunn, Fred, and Lorne weren't trustworthy. He was protecting them. Letting them know would have put them on Angelus's radar. There's no way they could have acted naturally even if they didn't blurt out their suspicions. It was the same reason he didn't tell them that Connor had sent Angel to the bottom of the sea. They weren't in any danger, but if they knew they would have reacted.

Cordy could've been contacted. Remember Fred wanted to call her after it happened but Angel said no, not Wes. There was no reason why Wes couldn't have called her.

 

[Mr Trick]

I do think Wesley acted hastedly, and didn't really think things through but I do understand his actions and his intentions were good. I don't see the Gunn thing as that black and white but

Gunn's actions were worse.

Connor lived (though unknowingly at the time, and even got the normal life he deserved in the end). Fred died.

Gunn gave in to the greed and corruption offered to him by W&H thus ending Fred's life.

I think Wesley was feeling a bit "weight of the world" as a boss and was generally feeling a bit dejected and ashamed since around 'Billy', after what he did to Fred, even more so as Fred and Gunn became a couple. He buried himself in his work and became obsessed with the prophecy - he needed proof, telling Angel and co. that Angel was destined to kill his infant son is some dark and disturbing info. It was a series of unfortunate events for Wesley. Lots of "what ifs", whereas Gunn was quite aware of the consequences but greed and the need for power took over.

Wait, lets not get ahead of ourselves now. I wouldn't say that snot noised little punk deserved a normal life😛

 

[bespangeled]

Cordy could've been contacted. Remember Fred wanted to call her after it happened but Angel said no, not Wes. There was no reason why Wes couldn't have called her.

After it happened Wes wasn't there.

I assumed he couldn't call but even if he could, what would he say?

"Hey Cordy - I have a prophecy that says Angel will kill Connor, with predicted mystical events confirming it, and a manic Angel bouncing around saying his kid smells like food and calling Connor a snack. Any advice?"

I can't see her saying anything other than get the hell out and take Connor - I'll be there as soon as I can. That leads to the same result.

If Cordelia was there, she could have handled it better than Wes - but Cordy on the phone somewhere in the Caribbean isn't enough.

 

[Anointed One]

After it happened Wes wasn't there.

I assumed he couldn't call but even if he could, what would he say?

"Hey Cordy - I have a prophecy that says Angel will kill Connor, with predicted mystical events confirming it, and a manic Angel bouncing around saying his kid smells like food and calling Connor a snack. Any advice?"

I can't see her saying anything other than get the hell out and take Connor - I'll be there as soon as I can. That leads to the same result.

If Cordelia was there, she could have handled it better than Wes - but Cordy on the phone somewhere in the Caribbean isn't enough.

It might not have been enough but it would've been something. He complained about being left alone but he could've kept at least one friend. It was his choice.

 

[bespangeled]

It might not have been enough but it would've been something. He complained about being left alone but he could've kept at least one friend. It was his choice.

I never saw him as trying to come back even though Angel forgave him an episode or two later, and told him they were even. It took a major apocalypse to bring him back.

 

[Anointed One]

I never saw him as trying to come back even though Angel forgave him an episode or two later, and told him they were even. It took a major apocalypse to bring him back.

Even though he never tried to come back, he said they abandoned him. Fred also told him to stay away or Angel would kill him. At that point, he couldn't come back even if he wanted to.

 

[bespangeled]

Even though he never tried to come back, he said they abandoned him. Fred also told him to stay away or Angel would kill him.

And one episode later Angel forgave him - but Wesley just handed him the information regarding Cordelia.

 

[Anointed One]

And one episode later Angel forgave him - but Wesley just handed him the information regarding Cordelia.

Angel forgave him but Wesley didn't forgive them. I think Wes was more upset with Cordy & Gunn than he was with Angel.

 

[bespangeled]

Angel forgave him but Wesley didn't forgive them. I think Wes was more upset with Cordy & Gunn than he was at Angel.

I think Wes was upset at himself - and he was back to square one. He wasn't given time to explain and apologize, and I suspect that was something daddy did. So he took this as complete rejection and built a new life. Even after rescuing Angel he didn't come in to be hailed as the hero - he told Angel about Connor in the car, made sure he was settled and left. This was no longer his life. By not allowing him to speak they had treated him like his father had.
 
@brinkster130: I meant the season 1 death from Prophecy Girl. And Wes didn't even attempt to get advice about it - I just don't feel sorry for him for being tricked when he never put in the effort to be sure.

That's the only prophecy death I'm aware of - I imagine everyone knew about the swan dive. I can see thinking that he should have put in more effort, and the result was tragic.

How does that compare to Gunn?

 

[Anointed One]

I think Wes was upset at himself - and he was back to square one. He wasn't given time to explain and apologize, and I suspect that was something daddy did. So he took this as complete rejection and built a new life. Even after rescuing Angel he didn't come in to be hailed as the hero - he told Angel about Connor in the car, made sure he was settled and left. This was no longer his life. By not allowing him to speak they had treated him like his father had.

Well of course he was mad at himself but I'm sure he wondered why Gunn & Cordy never came to see him. Cordy was pro Angel, acting as if Angel couldn't do such a thing. It had only been a season since Angel trapped W&H in a wine cellar and let Darla & Dru slaughter them. They saw how dark Angel could get and after he fired them a bond developed between Cordy, Gunn, and Wes.

 

[gite63]

What Gunn did was so selfish and stingy... he wanted something for him, and pretend that he was just signing some papers, and that's all. In the back of his head, would someone get hurt? Would something bad happen? Well, not with him or with the ones he cared, so...

 

[Taake]

Wesley.
Gunn was just being reckless, and yes that was real stupid, and had horrible consequences that he couldn't possibly have been able to forsee.

Wesley however isolated himself from his friends and co-workers, kept important information from them because he didn't want to upset anyone/want it to be true/thought he could solve it himself. Meanwhile 'solving' it actually turns into plotting to kidnap Angel's child. If it was so important to him to keep Connor safe then he should have informed Angel of the prophecy. Angel's been known to make sacrifices. If he thought he was a danger to his son he would have made an informed decision about keeping him safe and how. But nope, Wes went behind his friends' backs and made everything worse.
There's just no excuse for kidnapping someone's child like that.

 

[gite63]

Angel's been known to make sacrifices. If he thought he was a danger to his son he would have made an informed decision about keeping him safe and how.

Yeah, I believe in that, too - if Wes had talked to Angel, Angel would want to be as far away from Connor as possible, until they could sort things out.

Gunn was just being reckless

I don't think that it was just recklessness - Gunn knew with whom he was dealing, I mean, Wolfham & Hart embodied the true Evil...

 

[bespangeled]

Wesley.
Gunn was just being reckless, and yes that was real stupid, and had horrible consequences that he couldn't possibly have been able to forsee.

That's why this thread exists. I was rewatching the Illyria arc, and Gunn admitted he knew someone would pay for his choice. He knew someone would be hurt or killed. He just didn't think it would be one of them - that it would be Fred. Until then I never even compared the two incidents.

 

[Taake]

That's why this thread exists. I was rewatching the Illyria arc, and Gunn admitted he knew someone would pay for his choice. He knew someone would be hurt or killed. He just didn't think it would be one of them - that it would be Fred. Until then I never even compared the two incidents.

While it's not ok, I still think that it's more undeerstandable/acceptable than Wesley who knowingly inflicted unspeakable anguish on one of his best friends. I think most people, not all, could make the same choice as Gunn did because the "someone will pay" is too abstract for them to truly consider it/give it as much thought as they should, that's why I say Gunn was reckless. He knew he should've thought it through but didn't and probably didn't want to risk talking himself out of it either.

Wesley did nothing but think it through however and in the end he decided (true Watcher style) that his judgement of the situation and costs and risks in it, were superior to everyone else's and that therefore he had the right to make an executive decision that would directly impact and hurt the people around him.

 

[bespangeled]

I think most people, not all, could make the same choice as Gunn did because the "someone will pay" is too abstract for them to truly consider it/give it as much thought as they should, that's why I say Gunn was reckless. He knew he should've thought it through but didn't and probably didn't want to risk talking himself out of it either.

I can agree with some of what you say about Wesley, but I won't say that he knowingly or intentionally inflicted anguish. That would be so much simpler, wouldn't it? A big bad who came along - inflicting - if that was the plan then Holtz should have taken Connor. Wesley got played, and he got played well - Sahjhan knew what would work. That doesn't in the slightest absolve Wesley for the choices he made and the reasons behind them that you pointed out, but it was Holtz (through Sahjahn) who really and knowingly inflicted the anguish. Wesley was a tool who simply reacted as predicted - so much less dignity in being so easily read and used.

That's why I say Gunn was worse. You or I might not give it as much thought as we should but we are normal people in a sane universe. Gunn let W&H program him - terrifying right there. When he began to lose his lawyer mojo he couldn't stand it - he had to have it back - he just couldn't lose the status it brought him. He was given a choice - a way to buy his mojo back - and he knew that someone else would die for his upgrade. The man is supposed to be a hero - a moral example but he chose to save his job because he thought no one he knew would get hurt. If it wasn't his friend then it didn't count.

Then he compounded his involvement by trying to hide what he had done. If Angel and Wes had known about the doctor and what Gunn had done, there may have been something they could have done - even if they hadn't this was a chance to clean a viper nest. Gunn didn't want anyone to know that he had signed Fred's death warrant. Had it been someone in the typing pool, there would have been no moral quandary, no problem and no pain.

Now, I will say that I love Gunn when he turns down Hamilton in the basement - seriously and passionately. Because he had returned to everything he had lost and was meant to be.

Both of them got played, but Gunn made the choice knowing someone would be killed.
Wesley made his choice believing he was saving Connor and Angel.

 

[Taake]

I can agree with some of what you say about Wesley, but I won't say that he knowingly or intentionally inflicted anguish.
Wesley made his choice believing he was saving Connor and Angel.

Guess we'll have to disagree.
Planning to get Connor away from Angel would obviously inflict anguish in my opinion, even if it did save them. But Angel had a right to know about it all. As the parent. It's like Giles plotting to kill Spike, it's a Watcher move, making that decision for "the greater good", thinking that others aren't capable of making those calls.

 

[Ethan Reigns]

Wesley had the prophecy in hand that Angel would kill Connor. Connor was something that had never been seen before - a child born to two vampires. But Wesley never considered the idea that Connor might have to be killed depending on what he grew up to do. Connor could just as easily have been a killer or another Billy character with the capability of impelling others to do evil. Almost everyone Wesley knew in Sunnydale had killed someone or was going to. Buffy had killed a zookeeper because it was necessary. Giles' past came back to him with Eyghon when a student he had take part in a magic experiment died. Willow hadn't killed anyone yet - but she was going to eventually kill Warren after Tara died, with Tara's death supposedly the result of Willow killing the fawn to get blood for Buffy's regeneration spell. Xander took the blame for Sweet killing some people (although Sweet was called by a talisman that Dawn had stolen). Faith had killed the deputy mayor by accident but the courier of the box of Gavrok on her own initiative and Professor Worth, who had the secret to preventing the ascension. A lot of core and secondary characters in Sunnydale had caused someone's death.

With a background of people causing death, Connor could possibly outshine them all in causing death. Wesley should have realized that Angel may have to finish off Connor if he became a threat to other people. It didn't play out that way but it easily could have.

Gunn should have known that returning his legal mojo would have resulted in some damage somewhere. But we see little sign that he knows the "thermodynamics" of magic where energy is not created or destroyed, it only changes form and sometimes appears in the form of a sacrificed life.

 

[bespangeled]

Guess we'll have to disagree.
Planning to get Connor away from Angel would obviously inflict anguish in my opinion, even if it did save them. But Angel had a right to know about it all. As the parent. It's like Giles plotting to kill Spike, it's a Watcher move, making that decision for "the greater good", thinking that others aren't capable of making those calls.

Completely agree - watcherly exec decision with horrible consequences. But if he could tell Angel then there would be no need to do anything. Trouble is, the manic vamp calling his son a snack may not have been Angel. Wes has seen Angelus and the form he saw from the happy pill acted just like that.

Intent matters for me. The fact that Gunn admitted knowing, but he had slipped so far that he didn't care if it was someone out of the clique. That matters.