Happy Shiny People

[Ms.Trick]

Sooo...
W&M brought Darla back as a human to play with Angel, who makes the Trial to save Darla but can't save her because she already came back, Darla is turned into a vampire again, which drives Angel crazy and they have sex and he has an epiphany, and the Fang Gang goes to Pylea where they meet Fred, who Gunn and Wes immediately love but she chooses Gunn, Darla gets pregnant, which is possible because Angel won a life with the Trial and she kills herself so that Connor can live and Wes discovers a prophecy but he doesn't feel like talking about it to Fred and Gunn or Angel so he kidnaps Connor who ends up living in Quor-toh with Holz, Cordy becomes half-demon and then an higher being while Connors becomes so messed up that he worst-than-kills his father, who comes back thanks to Wesley and tries to find Cordy back, who ends up to appear with no memory of who she was and then remembers everything thanks to Lorne and sees the Beast in one of her vision and doesn't want to stay with Angel so she goes to Connor who is so messed up that he is glad to be chosen so they have sex and Cordy gets pregnant and evil so Jasmine can come to the world.

Damned! All of this for Jasmine? It's crazy! Really makes you realize that every single action you make might have consequences on the long term!


The whole Jasmine plot is interesting, it's a great analogy of religion and it's about the greatest good!
Are every means good to accomplish good? What's the line not to cross? Is it better to have all the world happy but enslaved and without capacity of judgement? Is absolute monotheism the solution to have world peace? How would be the world without the balance of good and evil? Isn't a world perfectly white actually gray or black?

You could really argue and think about this for hours! It's would be a great subject of philosophy!

 

[Lilah]

I can't remember Gunn's exact quote from this episode but what he says is what I stick by. All of the events to bring Jasmine into the world didn't happen because of her, they all are capable of making there own choices.

 

[caitaintdead]

I like to believe that people are capable of making their own choices. I find it quite offensive that Joss was trying to lead us to believe that so much of the 4 seasons that we had watched were just things that were meant to be. Doesn't he kind of do the same thing with Illyria? Or maybe I'm thinking of Jasmine... When it is inferred that Cordelia and Angel only met due to evil. I like to think that what Angel and Cordelia and the rest of the gang do is because they CHOOSE to do it.

I may be typing around in circles here, cause I'm a bit sick today, so... gunna end this rant.

 

[Zeppo]

I think it's like what they did in Buffy with "Normal Again," they simply offered an idea (and then took it back but added that last scene in just before the credits for debate). Having Gunn reject the idea I think makes it so we can debate this instead of being told that the last four years was all a strategy so mocha-momma could rule the world. I find it so fascinating and as much as I would like to say that Skip was telling the truth it really depletes how much I enjoy watching the show on repeats if I buy into that vision so ... I'm torn. It makes sense the PTB have influence on the world the watch but ... eh ...

I think that's why the Jasmine arc is touchy for some, it's not so black and white as the others; so she may or may not have influenced the whole show up until that point (even some elements of "Buffy") and she may or may not be bad ... I, personally, love it and think it's brilliant because, like the characters, I just don't know.

 

[caitaintdead]

I don't think we were really left with much of a choice in how to read the Jasmine arc. Gunn is a nice guy and all, but he has no clue what is going on when it comes to this kind of thing, so I have to say that his opinion is completely irrelevant.

 

[Zeppo]

I suppose. Skip could've also been making it up as well to lighten the blow on him to make it seem like he was just the messenger (and pawn, as he played a part in creating half-demon Cordy). It's probably a safe bet to say it was all manipulated, I just like that there's nothing to say either way that Skip was telling the truth. Storywise, it makes sense that it was all Jasmine's doing - could even go as far as saying she was respeonsible for Angel coming back from hell.

 

[NL197]

Gunn is one of those characters who represent the voice of the audience. That is why he was the one to say that, because we as an audience would say that.

Therefore, if his opinion is irrelevant, than so is ours.

---------- Post added at 03:06 AM ---------- Previous post was at 02:24 AM ----------

It may be simplistic, but the only thing that is complicated here, is the interpretation of Jasmine's existence and how it came to be. To throw out Gunn's opinion based on the idea that he's basically not smart enough to form it, is to also throw out the audience's opinion, because Gunn is our representation. Gunn has always been the voice of the audience, just as Xander and occasionally Cordelia were. They're the ones asking for clarification, they're the ones with doubt and confusion, pointing out who ludicrous things can be because that's what we as an audience would do. Every ensemble show has a character like that, sometimes more than one.

 

[caitaintdead]

Haha, yes I do know that there is usually a voice of the audience in most TV shows, most notably, in my opinion, in The Office (English version anyway, haven't seen the US one).

What I am saying is that Gunn does not know nearly enough about the situation to ve a viable source of information. Yes, he can question it, so can we, but he certainly can't create a new theory without any knowledge to back it up! He has seen even less of the events than we have, so why on Earth would we believe his point of view as fact?

I hope that makes sense to you.

 

[Kana]

For me it's not even about whether Gunn is the voice of the audience or not. He is able to reject the concept that Jasmine can control everything from start to finish and this is the important thing about being a champion, this is something he most likely learned from Angel.

In short, it's better to go through the whole 'game' assuming we have free will because if there is a chance that it isn't rigged from start to finish, then it's best to act because you never know when your choice is going to matter.

Incidently, Gunn was right. Unless Jasmine planned to get her powers stripped and killed by Connor, it's safe to assume she isn't controlling everything. She was at best a skilled manipulator, like say Holland Manners. However their skill in manipulation doesn't negate the intent and choices of the individual.

As Angel said, the powerful control everything but our ability to choose and it would make sense that Skip would want AI to think their choices were futile. What better way to keep them from fighting against what was coming?

 

[VisionGirl]

First off, it's bugging me so I want to clarify that Gunn's speech was not in this episode, but in Inside Out. I do rather like his speech though. I think it is sincerely what he believes.

Some would even say that Jasmine manipulated the events in Buffy season 3 in order to bring Angel back from hell, & cause the snow to fall in Amends in order to save Angel's life. Some say it was the PTB, others say W&H. I guess we'll never know for sure. The main thing is that I don't think we can take Jasmine's word as ultimate truth. I think she would lie or stretch the truth for her own gain.

I watched this last night, and God did I want to punch her!! I really like Gina Torres on Firefly, but she's so effing annoying here. All the smiling & laughing, I would hate a world like that lol. Wow, am I cynical or what? I loved the part about Fred talking to Cordelia, that was sweet. Of course, I'm going "Cordy, wake up!!". Fred buying a new sweater cracks me up, too.

Favorite quote- Gunn: Clorox, she bleaches away the hate.

 

[BuffyThoughts]

What About Stoller?

I just finished rewatching this one ... I have a question, maybe somebody can help.

Remember Mr. Stoller, the man at the restaurant who saw Jasmine for what she really was and attacked her? Later Fred visits him in the psychiatric ward where he's been put and asks what he saw.

We know why Fred saw Jasmine's true face. She was exposed to Jasmine's blood. But what about Stoller? I don't see that he was exposed to Jasmine's blood. Why was it he saw the true face when no one else did? What did I miss?

 

[Kana]

I just finished rewatching this one ... I have a question, maybe somebody can help.

Remember Mr. Stoller, the man at the restaurant who saw Jasmine for what she really was and attacked her? Later Fred visits him in the psychiatric ward where he's been put and asks what he saw.

We know why Fred saw Jasmine's true face. She was exposed to Jasmine's blood. But what about Stoller? I don't see that he was exposed to Jasmine's blood. Why was it he saw the true face when no one else did? What did I miss?

The vampire that attack her wounded her and then collided with Stoller and the vampires fingernails dig into him, therefore the blood mixes. That's what broke the spell.

 

[BuffyThoughts]

I'll have to go back and check that. Do we actually see that?

 

[TaylorSwift]

Am I the only one that thinks this Jasmine thing is horrible? To think all that happened was established to bring Jasmine into the world again...that's quite offensive and horrible for the characters (and frankly for us too)...they basically had no development, no growth..they were puppets if we wanna believe this. And I'm massively confused right now: Jasmine was inside Cordelia and made her do killing Lilah and almost killing Lorne and being all evil...right? So why is she good now? If it was her the voice of Cordelia...I'd be freaked out someone like that is worshiped. This is my first time watching, I don't know the whole thing so I don't have all the information but still...I'm really disappointed. And have I mentioned how is super-annoying all the worshiping, the tone in which they speak? Very irritating ahahah.

 

[Willow My Love]

My favorite line of that arc? "Tonight, the role of Judas Iscariot will be played by Krevlorneswath of the Deathwok Clan." Lorne does pretty well at faking it.

Why are we ignoring the fact that she ate people? Much less that she controlled everyone. The people she murdered had no will to fight her. They weren't capable of making choices, but I do believe what Gunn said in the other episode.

 

[Ojuice5001]

Jasmine is clearly striving to exemplify the archetype of the Great Mother Goddess; the mother who cares for all the creatures on Earth and makes peace among them. As for the morality of it all, I don't think the eating people should be that decisive. After all, it is completely true that this number of deaths is far less than the number of people who die from the wars, murders, diseases, and famines that would be prevented in a world ruled by Jasmine. If it's Jasmine versus the status quo, Jasmine is clearly better.

We may also grant that it's possible to have a world better than the status quo without the harms done by a benevolent dictator like Jasmine. But this kind of world--a world that combines freedom and dignity with peace and plenty -- would only be possible if humans used their free will differently, and thus we come to what most people (the heroes probably included) would consider to be the real issue: Jasmine's abolition of free will.

I myself have a value system that many of the "distinctively human virtues" like free will are highly overrated. Animals get along okay without free will; so do creatures with the psychology of the Buffverse demons; plenty of people (I consider myself to be one of them) are happy without questing or succeeding for free will and the other human virtues; and the people under Jasmine's spell are the same way. Personally, I'm the kind of guy who would be content to live in Huxley's Brave New World. But I realize that plenty of other people aren't, so we must consider their well-being.

A creature under Jasmine's enchantment is simply someone who loves Jasmine and wants to keep on staying in its blissed-out state of love. The badness of Jasmine's spell, and its real conflict with an ideology of freedom, is the fact that it is imposed on people without their consent, merely because someone looks at Jasmine. In other words, the person who was harmed is "the old man," the person who existed before he saw Jasmine and was inadvertently brainwashed. If Jasmine were to persuade people to join her big happy family, there would not be that kind of harm to the people who voluntarily joined, and it would be much harder to maintain that Jasmine is an enemy who must be stopped.

(And for that matter, Jasmine and her followers did seem to use persuasion to recruit a few people at least. That seems to be what was going on with those two laughing girls in the courtyard; one who was Jasmine's follower, and the other who was willingly finding out what was making her new friend so happy.)

So why doesn't Jasmine spread herself only to those who are willing? Partly, it's simply that she's an alien being who doesn't fully understand what free will is all about. But I think there's another reason. There are a fair number of people who would join Jasmine's group, for good reason and bad; but there are many others who would refuse, for good reasons and bad. Probably so many people would refuse that Jasmine would have trouble getting enough to eat. Her appetite probably consists in something like an imperative to absorb about ten humans every few weeks. So a small cult might not be enough to satisfy this need.

And it gets worse; in a worldwide Jasmine regime, where the sacrificial victims are randomly selected, any one person has barely more than a one-in-a-million chance of being sacrificed. Again, it's not much worse than the chances of being killed by murderous humans or preventable diseases. But if there are only a few dozen members of Jasmine's cult, then all of them can expect to die early by being sacrificed. Thus, anyone who wants a long life would refuse to join Jasmine's cult, and it would never grow to the point where it's a worldwide phenomenon that people can join without worrying that their life will be likely to end with being devoured by Jasmine.

So perhaps Jasmine's world peace is only sustainable if she controls millions of people--or if she forces people into it. Therefore, she sees a need to get to the large-scale phase of her operations quickly, and to use force to achieve that end. Meaning that actually, the "devouring people" drawback of Jasmine's plan turns out to be decisive after all. Otherwise, she could have been content with the slower progressive stance that Angel urged her to take at the end of "Peace Out."

And this also raises the question of whether Jasmine's need for devouring was diminished by Angel's breaking her spell. On the one hand, she surely needs less energy than she did before; but on the other hand, she may not have changed to that much of a degree. Did Jasmine refuse Angel's offer because she just prefers brainwashing people to doing the harder work of persuading people do what's right. Or was she thinking that after all, she's still the Devourer and still stands condemned by human morality to just as great a degree as any man-eating vampire or demon?

 

[Xin Rong]

This reminds me of a quote from stargate... the future is predertermined by the character of those that shape it... I never thought that the implication was that we were controlled by fate, I thought it showed that jasmine and co knew the choices certain people would make in certain situations so endeavoured to create those situations and thus achieve their over all goal