Hasn't the shanshu technically BEEN fulfilled?

[Gretchen]

This has been plaguing me since I rewatched the series recently. And I really kinda did more than a half-hearted search and can't find an answer ...
The boys are pretty worked up over the prophecy and who it's meant for and yadda yadda. And Angel seems fairly convinced it's a way for redemption, etc.
But ... if a vamp with a soul becomes human ... the gist of the prophecy ... hasn't that already happened in "I will remember ..."? And Angel had the oracles fold time ... but it still happened. He knows it. And he reversed it.

 

[Kean]

No, that is a totally separate thing. Angel's blood mixed with the Mohra's, becoming human was an unintended byproduct of that. There is no greater meaning to it, it's just something that happened. Shanshu is entirely different. It is presented as a gift given once Angel has been redeemed through good deeds. It's a reward. It's destiny. It's amends. What happened in IWRY was an accident.

(However, the nature of Shanshu (whether it's of good or evil) has very much been called into question in the most recent canon. Still, good or bad, it hasn't happened yet.)

 

[Buffyverse Fan]

I thought this was going to be about After the Fall 😛

 

[Kean]

I thought this was going to be about After the Fall 😛

Haha me too. It's definitely a closer claim than IWRY.

 

[white avenger]

What happened in IWRY was an accident.

(However, the nature of Shanshu (whether it's of good or evil) has very much been called into question in the most recent canon. Still, good or bad, it hasn't happened yet.)

I never could figure out just why becoming human from the Shanshu would be any different than becoming human due to the blood of a Mohra demon. Human is human, Angel loses all of his vampiric strength, speed, and whatever, and Buffy would still have to spend as much time protecting him as she did in the execution of her job. And, no, I'm NOT forgetting that the Shanshu is supposed to be a reward for Angel helping in the Final Battle, I'm remembering that there just isn't any such thing as a "final battle" where Buffy and her friends are concerned. No matter how many Big Bads they manage to defeat, it's always a certainty that there's a Bigger Badder just over the next hill. It just never quits. There's no escaping the fact that Angel had his humanity, free and clear, and he let the Powers That Be con him into giving it up by saying that Buffy would die protecting him if he remained human. So, instead, Buffy died protecting Dawn instead. Good trade, Angel. Shrewd.

(Okay, my "I Will Remember You" rant is over for now.)

As for the Shanshu, it's my understanding that he was to receive that from the Senior Partners, which would seem to indicate that he would get it as a reward for helping THEM, and since THEM are evil, that means that Angel must be doing something evil, kinda like the whole Twilight story line, in order to get it. Come to think of it, becoming Adam to Buffy's Eve in the Twilight Universe just MIGHT have been the Shanshu, or at least as close as he's ever likely to get in the next few centuries.

Oh, I just got a wild thought. In some future Armageddon. Angel does the deed and receives the reward, but, like is so often the case, the reward isn't without its built in penalty. Instead of becoming a human, he becomes a 4 armed monkey and has to guard the Watchers' Library in Fray's time.

Joss, if you're reading this, feel free to use it in Season 10, no payment or even mention required.

 

[Robb Stark]

I never could figure out just why becoming human from the Shanshu would be any different than becoming human due to the blood of a Mohra demon. Human is human, Angel loses all of his vampiric strength, speed, and whatever, and Buffy would still have to spend as much time protecting him as she did in the execution of her job. And, no, I'm NOT forgetting that the Shanshu is supposed to be a reward for Angel helping in the Final Battle, I'm remembering that there just isn't any such thing as a "final battle" where Buffy and her friends are concerned. No matter how many Big Bads they manage to defeat, it's always a certainty that there's a Bigger Badder just over the next hill. It just never quits. There's no escaping the fact that Angel had his humanity, free and clear, and he let the Powers That Be con him into giving it up by saying that Buffy would die protecting him if he remained human. So, instead, Buffy died protecting Dawn instead. Good trade, Angel. Shrewd.

(Okay, my "I Will Remember You" rant is over for now.)

Angel's deal with the Powers that Be had nothing to do with Dawn and Glory. Not even you my friend, could pin that one on Angel. He's about as related to what happened with Glory as he would be if Buffy got his by a bus stepping off the sidewalk. Him saving her from a specific danger (which, from all accounts, he did) is not a guarantee that she'll suddenly be safe for all time, and that if she isn't it is somehow Angel's fault. That makes no sense whatsoever.

 

[Gretchen]

No, that is a totally separate thing. Angel's blood mixed with the Mohra's, becoming human was an unintended byproduct of that. There is no greater meaning to it, it's just something that happened. Shanshu is entirely different. It is presented as a gift given once Angel has been redeemed through good deeds. It's a reward. It's destiny. It's amends. What happened in IWRY was an accident.


Yes, but as it had become almost a mantra over the many seasons ... how do you know if something is an accident or fated? The shanshu is not particular to how. So many other seemingly random events that later are revealed to be orchestrated ... how does anyone know (in the Angel 'verse) that it wasn't 'it'? I don't know. That's the thing about 'accidents', many of them prove otherwise. Why could it have not been demon blood that delivers the humanity?
And why would it be so desirable when he was so ready to give it up.
I dunno if any answer will satisfy me, but it was worth a shot.

---------- Post added at 08:25 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:22 PM ----------

I never could figure out just why becoming human from the Shanshu would be any different than becoming human due to the blood of a Mohra demon. Human is human, Angel loses all of his vampiric strength, speed, and whatever, and Buffy would still have to spend as much time protecting him as she did in the execution of her job. And, no, I'm NOT forgetting that the Shanshu is supposed to be a reward for Angel helping in the Final Battle, I'm remembering that there just isn't any such thing as a "final battle" where Buffy and her friends are concerned. No matter how many Big Bads they manage to defeat, it's always a certainty that there's a Bigger Badder just over the next hill. It just never quits. There's no escaping the fact that Angel had his humanity, free and clear, and he let the Powers That Be con him into giving it up by saying that Buffy would die protecting him if he remained human. So, instead, Buffy died protecting Dawn instead. Good trade, Angel. Shrewd.

(Okay, my "I Will Remember You" rant is over for now.)

As for the Shanshu, it's my understanding that he was to receive that from the Senior Partners, which would seem to indicate that he would get it as a reward for helping THEM, and since THEM are evil, that means that Angel must be doing something evil, kinda like the whole Twilight story line, in order to get it. Come to think of it, becoming Adam to Buffy's Eve in the Twilight Universe just MIGHT have been the Shanshu, or at least as close as he's ever likely to get in the next few centuries.

Oh, I just got a wild thought. In some future Armageddon. Angel does the deed and receives the reward, but, like is so often the case, the reward isn't without its built in penalty. Instead of becoming a human, he becomes a 4 armed monkey and has to guard the Watchers' Library in Fray's time.

Joss, if you're reading this, feel free to use it in Season 10, no payment or even mention required.

Agreed. That was 50% of my argument with myself and my imaginary Joss. 😉
I don't recall though, where is specifically says in the prophecy that the humanity is restored by the senior partners. I definitely could have missed that, but I don't remember. I know that W&H HAD the prophecy, but hell, they had everything.

 

[white avenger]

Angel's deal with the Powers that Be had nothing to do with Dawn and Glory. Not even you my friend, could pin that one on Angel. He's about as related to what happened with Glory as he would be if Buffy got his by a bus stepping off the sidewalk. Him saving her from a specific danger (which, from all accounts, he did) is not a guarantee that she'll suddenly be safe for all time, and that if she isn't it is somehow Angel's fault. That makes no sense whatsoever.

I agree, Angel's deal with the Powers had nothing whatsoever to do with Glory and Dawn. But his reasoning for making the deal in the first place was that they told him that Buffy would die protecting him. On that information, in an effort to save Buffy's life, Angel gives up his humanity and his only real chance (so far) of a happy life with the woman he loves. All very noble and self sacrificing. I can't help but wonder, though, if he didn't feel just a little bit screwed when, the next year, Buffy still dies protecting a human, in this case, her sister, Dawn.

It's a common theme throughout fiction that efforts to change one's fate only result in altering minor details, but never, despite all efforts, does the end result change. Buffy's fate, inescapable, was to die protecting someone she loved, and almost certainly, the Powers knew that full well. And, they didn't exactly lie to Angel, they just led him to believe that his sacrifice would somehow change that. About the only positive thing in the ultimate outcome, as far as Angel was concerned, was that he had the satisfaction of knowing that it wasn't him she died protecting. But she was just as dead, and he had thrown away a possible year of happiness shared with her. Everyone probably has guessed by now that Bangel isn't my favorite ship in the Buffyverse, but even I can see the tragedy and irony in that.

 

[Buffyverse Fan]

I never could figure out just why becoming human from the Shanshu would be any different than becoming human due to the blood of a Mohra demon. Human is human, Angel loses all of his vampiric strength, speed, and whatever, and Buffy would still have to spend as much time protecting him as she did in the execution of her job.

No she wouldn't. A lot has changed since then. Firstly, it's debatable whether or not Buffy would even want to protect Angel now, as-of BS8. That aside, Connor & Faith could easily fill that role.

Secondly, Angel wouldn't need protection. As Kean & I mentioned, Angel was made human for a decent stretch After the Fall. He eventually figured out how to fight nearly as well being a mortal, likely having stolen some the idea from what Lindsey used on him in You're Welcome.

And, no, I'm NOT forgetting that the Shanshu is supposed to be a reward for Angel helping in the Final Battle, I'm remembering that there just isn't any such thing as a "final battle" where Buffy and her friends are concerned. No matter how many Big Bads they manage to defeat, it's always a certainty that there's a Bigger Badder just over the next hill. It just never quits.

Yes there is; see Fray.

As for the Shanshu, it's my understanding that he was to receive that from the Senior Partners, which would seem to indicate that he would get it as a reward for helping THEM, and since THEM are evil, that means that Angel must be doing something evil, kinda like the whole Twilight story line, in order to get it. Come to think of it, becoming Adam to Buffy's Eve in the Twilight Universe just MIGHT have been the Shanshu, or at least as close as he's ever likely to get in the next few centuries.

I don't recall though, where is specifically says in the prophecy that the humanity is restored by the senior partners. I definitely could have missed that, but I don't remember. I know that W&H HAD the prophecy, but hell, they had everything.

You didn't miss anything Gretchen 🙂 It's never stated or even implied that the Shanshu prophecy has anything to do with the Senior Partners...

Oh, I just got a wild thought. In some future Armageddon. Angel does the deed and receives the reward, but, like is so often the case, the reward isn't without its built in penalty. Instead of becoming a human, he becomes a 4 armed monkey and has to guard the Watchers' Library in Fray's time.

Joss, if you're reading this, feel free to use it in Season 10, no payment or even mention required.

The going theory is that Gates is Giles, but I like to think it's Andrew 🙂

 

[Kean]

Yes, but as it had become almost a mantra over the many seasons ... how do you know if something is an accident or fated? The shanshu is not particular to how. So many other seemingly random events that later are revealed to be orchestrated ... how does anyone know (in the Angel 'verse) that it wasn't 'it'? I don't know. That's the thing about 'accidents', many of them prove otherwise. Why could it have not been demon blood that delivers the humanity?
And why would it be so desirable when he was so ready to give it up.
I dunno if any answer will satisfy me, but it was worth a shot.
.

The Oracles told Angel that "you fought a Mohra demon, life goes on." They told him there was no greater purpose to him turning human other than it being something that just happened. Of course there is all the technical evidence, such as Shanshu not existing in the verse at the point of IWRY. And then in S5, if Angel had already received Shanshu how could he sign it away in order to join the Black Thorn?

Becoming human isn't the key feature of Shanshu, redemption and forgiveness are. Becoming human is simply the best way for Angel to get a clean slate. It's a way for Angel to die like a man and not have to live forever with guilt and remorse. The reward could just as easily be having the happiness clause taken out of his curse, hell it could be a trip to Disney World, either way the physical reward is nothing compared to the karmic one. When Angel became human in IWRY it was not a reward for good deeds nor saving the world. It simply something that happened in battle. If Angel had stayed human redemption and forgiveness would still be something he'd have to strive for.


Personally, I think the Ring of Amara and IWRY served to show Angel how humanity was not truly what he wanted, but rather fighting the good fight and earning forgiveness.

 

[white avenger]

Secondly, Angel wouldn't need protection. As Kean & I mentioned, Angel was made human for a decent stretch After the Fall. He eventually figured out how to fight nearly as well being a mortal, likely having stolen some the idea from what Lindsey used on him in You're Welcome.

It's been awhile since I read the "After The Fall" arc, but as I recall, Angel was so badly beaten during his time as a human that the only way that he could continue to fight was with the aid of magic provided by Ghost Wes, and when the spell was broken, he pretty much collapsed into a pile of broken bones, battered muscles, and screaming nerve endings. That doesn't seem like "fighting nearly as well" to me. That sounds like giving the ILLUSION that he was fighting like the old Angel.

I'm not saying that he couldn't eventually learn to fight, but in order to do so, he would first have to unlearn all of the tactics and skills that he took two centuries developing, because they were all based on superhuman strength, enhanced senses, and the ability to heal very rapidly. Once he managed to do that, then he would have to start learning how to fight all over again, which would be a rather lengthy process, during which time Andrew could probably beat him in a stand up fight, and Xander could have him for breakfast without ever breaking a sweat.

 

[Robb Stark]

It's been awhile since I read the "After The Fall" arc, but as I recall, Angel was so badly beaten during his time as a human that the only way that he could continue to fight was with the aid of magic provided by Ghost Wes, and when the spell was broken, he pretty much collapsed into a pile of broken bones, battered muscles, and screaming nerve endings. That doesn't seem like "fighting nearly as well" to me. That sounds like giving the ILLUSION that he was fighting like the old Angel.

I'm not saying that he couldn't eventually learn to fight, but in order to do so, he would first have to unlearn all of the tactics and skills that he took two centuries developing, because they were all based on superhuman strength, enhanced senses, and the ability to heal very rapidly. Once he managed to do that, then he would have to start learning how to fight all over again, which would be a rather lengthy process, during which time Andrew could probably beat him in a stand up fight, and Xander could have him for breakfast without ever breaking a sweat.

Well, he does pretty well without any super powers whatsoever in "After the Fall". The illusion makes it seem like he's still a vampire, but he doesn't have supernatural strength or healing abilities anymore, and he does just fine.

And come on. There is no way in hell Andrew or Xander could take Angel. No. Way. He's fighting hell-demons in ATF and doing pretty well at it.

 

[white avenger]

Well, he does pretty well without any super powers whatsoever in "After the Fall". The illusion makes it seem like he's still a vampire, but he doesn't have supernatural strength or healing abilities anymore, and he does just fine.

And come on. There is no way in hell Andrew or Xander could take Angel. No. Way. He's fighting hell-demons in ATF and doing pretty well at it.

Once again, he was able to fool the demons in Hell A primarily because of the illusion that Wes was able to generate. That's why he had to rely on all of those weapons, something that he had never had to do before, and even with them, he wasn't able to avoid what would have been at the least crippling injuries, if it weren't for Was' magic. Angel has spent the last two centuries using a fighting style that was dependent on his natural vampire abilities. Take those away, and the techniques that he has been used to employing simply won't work anymore. He's not as strong, so he's going to have to learn how to use his opponent's strength and mass against him. It's like a champion karate fighter suddenly having to adapt to fighting using only aikido techniques. He has to not only learn the new system, which is hard enough in and of itself, but he also, at the same time, has to forget everything that he had learned and become affective with in karate, because it simply can't work for him anymore. That's not a precise analogy, but it should be close enough to illustrate my point.

Angel's former style was based on a precise set of actions, reactions, and reflexes, and he was quite good at it as long as his body was capable of supporting that style. As a human, his body simply wouldn't have what it takes to fight that way anymore, and the style that his body IS capable of utilizing is something that he's never had to develop.

 

[Black Eye Guy]

It's been awhile since I read the "After The Fall" arc, but as I recall, Angel was so badly beaten during his time as a human that the only way that he could continue to fight was with the aid of magic provided by Ghost Wes, and when the spell was broken, he pretty much collapsed into a pile of broken bones, battered muscles, and screaming nerve endings. That doesn't seem like "fighting nearly as well" to me. That sounds like giving the ILLUSION that he was fighting like the old Angel.

But that was because all the injuries came back at once, so it isn't a proper example of what a human Angel would be like fighting.

I dont think the Morah blood had anything to do with Shanshu. The prophecy says that it comes after numerous trials and THE apocalypse, not an apocalypse, but it's implied it's the final one. which we know there is some version of from Fray.

And since it was something angel could sign away in season 5, and Wesley showed him a vision of it and higher power Cordelia told him to keep on fighting I think it's clear it's still in the running for Angel.

 

[EVIL UU]

Yes. I mean, prophecies are tricky creatures. They don't tell you everything. Angel doesn't understand that redemption doesn't work when you're a monster. As a vampire he's damned, no matter what he does. He had one chance to step out of the train going straight to hell and he blew it.
[MENTION=12444]Gretchen[/MENTION]

And why would it be so desirable when he was so ready to give it up.

Angel loves power more than he loves anything else. It's more important to him than Buffy, redemption, humanity, sunbathing...you name it.

 

[Kean]

Angel loves power more than he loves anything else. It's more important to him than Buffy, redemption, humanity, sunbathing...you name it.

I don't see that at all. If Angel lived for power why would he serve anyone the way he serves TPTB. Why would he willingly put himself in positions if powerlessness. Why would he ask his friends if he could work for them. Why would he destroy the Black Thorn. He had the ultimate power when he joined W&H and he gave it up. Hell, he was a God and he gave it up. Power is not what Angel aspires to, we have never seen him hold it in very high esteem. If anything Angel has been shown to find power disdainful.

 

[janas]

No she wouldn't. A lot has changed since then. Firstly, it's debatable whether or not Buffy would even want to protect Angel now, as-of BS8.

I'm not so sure about this 🙂 Have you read Buffy 9.20? There is a flashback of the season eight where we see exactly what happens in the seed chamber.

 

[Robb Stark]

[MENTION=11194]EVIL UU[/MENTION],

If Angel is so addicted to power, then why does he actively destroy the Black Thorn in S5? That doesn't mesh with what you said at all. If all he sought was power, then he would never have relinquished control of the Black Thorn and destroyed them. How do you explain that?

 

[white avenger]

I don't see that at all. If Angel lived for power why would he serve anyone the way he serves TPTB. Why would he willingly put himself in positions if powerlessness. Why would he ask his friends if he could work for them. Why would he destroy the Black Thorn. He had the ultimate power when he joined W&H and he gave it up. Hell, he was a God and he gave it up. Power is not what Angel aspires to, we have never seen him hold it in very high esteem. If anything Angel has been shown to find power disdainful.

All of those things that you mentioned could be looked upon simply as stages in Angel's climb to attain more and more power. No one can deny that by the end of Season 5, up until he was reminded rather bluntly by Cordy that he had completely lost focus on his original mission, his real reason for setting up shop in LA in the first place, that he was far, far more powerful than he had ever been before. Only after that did he begin to refocus, at least for awhile, on the fight against evil, in this case, incarnate in Wolfram & Hart and the Senior Partners. Then he lost track BIG TIME in Season 8, with disastrous results, and he that he hasn't resumed "helping the helpless" even yet, being too focused on a personal, self imposed mission to try and correct his screw up from Season 8. Can he finally regain focus once more? If he were a race horse, my money wouldn't be on him. But there is still a glimmer of hope.

Season 10 is looming over the horizon.

 

[Robb Stark]

[MENTION=6758]white avenger[/MENTION],

Which would make him guilty of getting off track, not of being a power-hungry despot as [MENTION=11194]EVIL UU[/MENTION] makes him out to be. Losing sight of your goal (and as you said, his "real mission" wasn't about power) is hardly the same thing as seeking power. Having to have someone give you a pep talk isn't a character indictment.