Have you ever wondered what Angel would do
- Thread starter Joshua
- Start date
white avenger
white avenger
As strange as this might seem, and it has nothing whatsoever to do with ship loyalty, I think that Buffy would have stopped Angel from doing anything, on the simple grounds that it wasn't any of his business, any more than it was Xander's, Dawn's, or anyone else's.
Kean
Because it wasn't his business? That's the reason? I respectfully disagree.
What he would have done? My guess is beat the living crap out of him. I don't think he would have been able to focus enough to stake him. Buffy would pull him off, but not before he done some real damage. And then, if Spike hadn't already left, he would have seen him out of town with a warning to never come back.
Joan the Vampire Slayer
[No message]
white avenger
white avenger
Beating "the living crap" out of Spike might not have been nearly as easy as Angel might have imagined, as he found out in Season 5 of his own show, and even if he were actually still capable of doing it, it would have taken a lot longer than it would have taken for Buffy to have pulled him off. And as for and warning to Spike not to come back, wouldn't that fall under the same category as what Angel told Buffy in "Sanctuary" about coming to "his" town and interfering in "his" business? How is that any different than him coming back to Sunnydale and doing the exact same thing? Buffy is more than capable of defending herself, as Angel seemed well aware at the end of Season 7, when he stood back and let her handle Caleb in her own way. (Then again, Caleb was only trying to kill Buffy, not rape her) And, as for Spike being told to leave town and never come back, once more, that is Angel interfering in Buffy's business, in her town, something that he had no right whatsoever to do. Or is this another of those double standards that Angel is so fond of?
I'm not trying to excuse what Spike tried to do, and I am most certainly not looking at the topic through my Spike colored shades, but I still say that Angel would have had no business sticking his nose into Buffy's affairs unless she specifically asked him to do so, and I firmly believe that she would have been the first one to tell him so, and the result just very well might have been that Angel, not Spike, found himself thrown out of town with instructions not to come back unless invited to do so.
Aloverssoulz
Potential
Spike would have been kicked down the stairs and all around Buffy's house. Buffy would have broken it up before Angel finished him and thrown them both out before crying at the front door *goes to random scene with different characters 😛*
Gum Gnome33
"Well, yeah..."
- Joined
- Jan 10, 2011
- Messages
- 1,148
I don't think Angel would have had a chance to try to "beat up" Spike or do anything much to him because, remember, once he'd realized what he was doing he ran away, ashamed and disgusted with himself. So once Angel punched him, let's say, Spike would have come to that realization and left like he does in the episode. He might have even let Angel stake him at that point if he had one handy,(though I think his fierce desire to make amends would have inspired him to go on).
Cheese Slices
[No message]
Kana
Soulless human
- Joined
- Oct 15, 2007
- Messages
- 1,305
If Angel managed to catch Spike before he went to get a soul, on one hand it could be argued that the fight may possibly have gone Angel's way. Angel wouldn't be working on the logic of fair moral judgement (on account of as Angelus, he's arguably done worse) but working on pure rage.
It's possible that Spike would be too crippled by guilt to be the opponent he was in Season 5's Destiny. However we never could tell. If Spike were already resigned to get a soul, one could argue, he would literally walk through Angel to achieve that goal, so on second thoughts it could go either way.
It's possible that Spike would be too crippled by guilt to be the opponent he was in Season 5's Destiny. However we never could tell. If Spike were already resigned to get a soul, one could argue, he would literally walk through Angel to achieve that goal, so on second thoughts it could go either way.
Skytteflickan88
Proud Spikette
He would have killed Spike. If Buffy had thought Spike "didn't mean it" which I guess would take atleast weeks, maybe never, she might feel regret about not helping Spike.
Right after the almost rape, I tink she would be in chock for a while, or simply very unwilling to get invoved. Angel would be kiling Spike, and Buffy would probably leave. But, if she stuck around, and this was afternshe had thrown him off, and Soike wasn't fighting back(he lookedmvery taken, so he might be off his game, or simply let it happen, even though I find that a bit less likely), she might tell Angel to stop. But I doubt she'd want tomgo near Spike. But love makes you do the wacky. Maybe she would shake it off. My knowledge of rape victims is mainly from TV, news papers and a fewnfriends who have been through it. But even though Buffy had been through a lot, as we saw, she seemed to have a very human reaction to the attempted rape. She seems to have been effeicent enough and world saving in a few hours, but chances are, she wouldn't be willing or emotionally or mentally ready to save the createnthat just tried to rape her.
Angel would have won, even if Spike was at his best, because as Angel said in ats season 5, it's about who wants it the most. Also, @whiteavenger you can say it's Buffy's town all you want, but I think Buffy would have been hurt if Angel hadn't shown extreme rage. And she would have forgiven him, understanding why he did it. That she might already have loved Spike will probably make her feel bad, and maybe madmat Angel for a while, but she would soon enough understand.
Right after the almost rape, I tink she would be in chock for a while, or simply very unwilling to get invoved. Angel would be kiling Spike, and Buffy would probably leave. But, if she stuck around, and this was afternshe had thrown him off, and Soike wasn't fighting back(he lookedmvery taken, so he might be off his game, or simply let it happen, even though I find that a bit less likely), she might tell Angel to stop. But I doubt she'd want tomgo near Spike. But love makes you do the wacky. Maybe she would shake it off. My knowledge of rape victims is mainly from TV, news papers and a fewnfriends who have been through it. But even though Buffy had been through a lot, as we saw, she seemed to have a very human reaction to the attempted rape. She seems to have been effeicent enough and world saving in a few hours, but chances are, she wouldn't be willing or emotionally or mentally ready to save the createnthat just tried to rape her.
Angel would have won, even if Spike was at his best, because as Angel said in ats season 5, it's about who wants it the most. Also, @whiteavenger you can say it's Buffy's town all you want, but I think Buffy would have been hurt if Angel hadn't shown extreme rage. And she would have forgiven him, understanding why he did it. That she might already have loved Spike will probably make her feel bad, and maybe madmat Angel for a while, but she would soon enough understand.
sisterofmercy
Ray of Sunshine..
I think Spike would be dust. They may be evenly matched in strength but in the state Spike was in and considering just how angry Angel would be I think Spike would let his guard slip.
Skytteflickan88
Proud Spikette
What!?! That's aweful! I always assumed it was just sexual harrassment ending in consensual sex. Was he really that twisted that season? Do you have a source for where Minear says this?
I can't believe the writersmonce more minimizes rape. I think the way the handled tha attempted rape of Buffy in Seeing Red makes up for a lot of other badly handled assualt situations, but this is just ewww. I know the shows are meant as entertainment, not education, but still.
Goby
Brb, shipping Snoyce
I was going to say the same thing. First, the OP said "saw Spike almost raping Buffy."
Spike would be dead, and AtS Season 5 would not have been great. I'm glad he wasn't there.
I can I just ask, how do you view Smashed? Do you think their was a claim for rape in that scene? Personally, I don't at all, but I'm just wondering if you do because of any other scene in the entire verse, Spike and Buffy tearing down that house is the corresponding scene to what happened with Darla and Angel. The violence, the desperation, the aggression; it's like a mirror image. I don't think either were sexual assaults as both parties in each situation very clearly consented. Multiple times.
If Time Minear claimed that the Angel and Darla scene was supposed to be something else then I think it was irresponsible of the show to not make that clear.
Well, no. First off, I have no issue with what Angel said to Buffy in "Sanctuary" she came looking for a scalp and Angel was trying to save a soul. If it meant he had to upset Buffy to get his point across, so be it. And besides, he apologised to Buffy for the way he spoke to her and she acknowledged that he was right. This is a mute point.
At this point in time Spike didn't have a soul, if anything Angel would be showing a mercy that I honestly don't think Spike deserved, in not staking him.
And no one would agree with you more on this than Angel.
When he obeyed her wishes completely.
No this is Angel witnessing someone he loves being sexually assaulted and making a stand against the person who attacked her. Angel telling Spike to never come back has nothing to do with whose town it is or anything like that. It is about Spike being dangerous and destructive. It isn't about heroism, it isn't about old grudges and it isn't about bitterness or jealousy. It is about seeing somebody do wrong against someone you care about and you telling them it isn't going to fly. He wouldn't do it because he thought Buffy couldn't look after herself, he would do it because he couldn't not. It would be Angel having her back.
This wasn't some lovers quarrel. It was an attempted rape. There is a reason why the law has serious consequences to such a crime. It is not a private matter. It was Spike showing definitively that he was a danger the well being of not only Buffy, but every one close to her. The personal is public. This wasn't something that Spike and Buffy could, or should, settle among themselves.
If Angel is telling Spike to never leave town he is doing it to let Spike know that what he did was wrong. And that needs to be said. It was wrong. It was unacceptable and anyone who cares for Buffy can make that clear if they so choose. This isn't about doing for Buffy what she could do herself, or imposing himself on her life in inappropriate ways, it is about standing with her and giving her support.
EvilWillow
Scooby
No, not really. I kind of forgot all about Angel when I was watching season 6. 😛
I think Angel would swoop in, and attempt to be the white knight and save the princess. But I don't think Buffy would let him.
The problem is that Angel still thinks he has relevance in Buffy's life...but he really doesn't. Yes, they have met 2 times after season four, to make out, but that's really about it. I think Buffy would send him walking. I think she'd turn her back on him beofre she would let him kill spike.
Just my opinion.
I think Angel would swoop in, and attempt to be the white knight and save the princess. But I don't think Buffy would let him.
The problem is that Angel still thinks he has relevance in Buffy's life...but he really doesn't. Yes, they have met 2 times after season four, to make out, but that's really about it. I think Buffy would send him walking. I think she'd turn her back on him beofre she would let him kill spike.
Just my opinion.
white avenger
white avenger
And once more, compare this to what Angel did to Caleb in Season 7, and you see a complete contradiction. Yes, he slugged Caleb, but he didn't "beat the crap" out of him, even though Caleb's intent was to kill Buffy. He stood back and let her fight her own battles.
Either Angel accepts the fact that Buffy is a big girl now, perfectly capable of fighting her own battles, and neither wants, nor needs, his help in doing so, or he sees her as the helpless damsel in distress which we all know absolutely that she is not. It can't be both ways. Angel knows that Buffy can beat the crap out of him whenever she wants to, he believes that he can do the same to Spike, therefore he would have no doubt that Buffy would have no problem believing that Spike would present no problem for her.
I could understand him dragging Spike away, then standing back with his, "You are so gonna lose," smirk and waiting for Buffy to do what he knew that she could do. That's what she would want. But time and again, we have seen that Buffy does not like or need Angel, or anyone else, meddling in her life uninvited, and I see nothing to indicate that this situation would be any different.
We aren't talking here about a normal ex boyfriend interrupting the latest lover's attempted assault on a normal ex cheerleader, we're talking about the equivalent of superheroes. Does anyone honestly think that Wonder Woman would either need, desire, or appreciate Superman's help in handling the Red Dragon?
And as for convincing Spike that what he did was wrong, there wasn't any need for it. He knew it himself, hence the trip to Africa to obtain the soul, which was the entire reason that this episode was written in the first place.
E
EvilWillow
[No message]
In a podcast that was linked to whedonesque
http://www.nerdist.com/2011/10/nerd...eknight-tim-minear-megan-ganz-harris-wittels/
See around min 43
And there's another early Tim Minear interview http://investigatingangel.com/podcast/tim-minear-interview saying the same thing ("Angel forced himself on Darla", around min 24)
Last edited:
S
Skytteflickan88
Thank you. I'll listen to it when I'm in a better mood. Right now I'm just thinking "Bleurgh!"
Gum Gnome33
"Well, yeah..."
- Joined
- Jan 10, 2011
- Messages
- 1,148
In terms of consequences, since it's clear that there was no intent present, then add to that the fact that there was no rape, I'm fairly certain that this would not so much as come to court in the US. But even when there is rape, if there is no actual intent, (which I and many others believe was the case here), the consequences are very different. Just wanted to point that out.
Well, when Buffy beat Spike nearly to death in an alley and didn't so much as make sure he could get home before sunlight, the issue was clearly settled without the involvement of another, (or perhaps was never settled, but in any case, it was between them). That is at the very least a parallel to the bathroom scene, and arguably much worse. Do you think a third party should have been involved? Personally I'd have liked to see a conversation about it, but I think there was no need for anyone else to know/contribute anything.
Yes but remember that no one realized that as much as Spike. It completely devastated him that he could have come so close to hurting her, and he changed his life around as a result. While it'd be completely reasonable for Angel to point out the "wrongness" of his deed, I hardly think it would be necessary. Spike didn't need to be told to leave town or that his actions were despicable. Even without a soul. It's one of the most remarkable aspects of his character, and having a third party come in and have to point it out for him would take that all of that away from his redemption story.
Joan the Vampire Slayer
Carpe Spuffy!
I would have loved to see a showdown between Angel and Spike over the AR. Buffy certainly would have stopped Angel from killing Spike. That said, I don't think Angel could have done it regardless - we've seen that Spike is stronger than Angel (Destiny) but not only that, Angel loves Spike, and even though he hates him, I don't think he could kill Spike. We see him try to do this in S8, but Angel WAS under the influence of Twilight.
---------- Post added at 12:16 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:10 PM ----------
This is exactly what I think, too; Spike felt so guilty about what he'd tried to do, I bet he'd welcome punishment from Angel.
Does anyone think Angel would have killed Spike? The consensus seems to be that Angel would have beat-up Spike, and Buffy would have stopped him. This is in-character for all involved. What I wonder is if Spike would have fought back.
Boy, what a great scene that would have been. Someone write a fic, please!
---------- Post added at 12:22 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:16 PM ----------
Yes, he was that twisted, he was lost and had given up in being good - but him and Darla always had a dysfunctional, mutually-abusive relationship. Think about it. She made him, destroyed his humanity, and made him into her killing protege. They were never equal - she loved him and he never loved her, by his own omission. Using each other for sex never seemed like a big deal to these two.
Darla basically rapes Angel in his sleep when she was hired by W&H.
E
EvilWillow
I dont think he was complaining about Darla raping him in his sleep. :P
There is a major difference between Angel walking into a situation where Buffy is slaying, which is her birthright, standing back from the fight, per her request, and Angel walking into that bathroom and seeing Spike pinning Buffy to the ground and trying to tear her clothes off while Buffy is begging him to stop. No one short of Angelus would walk into that room and do nothing. Sheer instinct dictates that Angel react to that situation.
So Buffy can never need help ever in her life? Is she weak or being taken advantage of if ever she needs support? Lets be real here, the hypotetical situation we are discussing here is Angel walking in on Spike trying to rape Buffy. There is no time for a Q&A in this situation. You see someone being attacked in the manner which Buffy was being attacked, you step in. Simple as. It is absolutely ludicrous to suggest that Angel is the wrong one in this scenario.
In that scene Buffy was not the slayer being attacked by a vampire, she was a woman being sexually assaulted. Her reactions were human, not supernatural. She was terrified. She was traumatised. If it was just the slayer being attacked Spike would have been kicked across the room a Hell of a lot sooner than he was.
This whole scenario is not about Angel riding in to save the helpless girl, it is about someone seeing something wrong happening and reacting to it.
How could you possibly know that?
Do you honestly think that in the middle of that situation, what Buffy would have been worried about is that someone had to help her out? The only thing we know that Buffy did not want in that bathroom was Spike forcing himself on her. She is emphatic about that.
Buffy is a person. She was under attack in the most personal and invasive of ways. I can't imagine there was anyone's help she wouldn't have accepted in that moment.
Just do me a favour, imagine it was Angel who was trying to rape Buffy. Who had her pinned to the floor while she cried and begged him to stop. Now imagine Spike walks in; what do you think he would do? What do you think he should do? I know you and if you say you would want him to not intervene you are lying through your teeth.
Which is appalling on so many levels.
I mean absolutely no disrespect to you, or anyone else here on this board, but quite frankly that says more about the state of US judicial system than it does about what Spike nearly did in that bathroom. If Buffy hadn't stopped him he would have forced sexual intercourse on her and it would have been rape. The fact that she stopped him makes it attempted rape. Consent can be taken away at any point during intercourse. The fact that Spike ignored Buffy's dissent and then protestations, well there is your intent. Buffy couldn't have been more clear about it. She wasn't consenting, she protested vigorously and he continued to initiate a sexual act against her will.
There is a stigma with rape and sexual assault in society. Because of this over 60% of all sexual assaults go unreported. There is a culture of silence and I believe this is part of that. Why should other people know about it? To support the victim/survivor. To help them in any capacity they can. Maybe to ensure the attacker doesn't get away with it? All of the above?
But how is Angel to know that? We're talking about a conversation happening within minutes (possibly hours) of the attack. The OP asked what Angel would do, this is what I believe he would do. He would know nothing of Spike's (apparent) good deeds. All he would see is a ruthless, soulless vampire attacking people. To be honest, I find it almost negligent of Angel to not stake Spike, given what he would have known at the time. Nobody knew Spike was getting a soul until we saw it.