Have you ever wondered what Angel would do

[InsaneMystic]

[MENTION=7585]Kean[/MENTION]... I'm not getting into this discussion again, just saying that I - unsurprisingly - agree with GG33. (I don't have the nerves for this debate anymore, but I don't want any doubt about the fact that I still very much disagree with the "attempted rape" theory.)

As for the question - of course the BHD would have intervened. Depending on the exact moment when he dropped in, Spike would possibly not have put up much of a fight, either.

I also think that Buffy would have chided him out on meddling in business that's not his afterwards, would forcefully have stopped him if he had tried to kill Spike, and would have sent him out of town quite pissedly... because I'm certain that she was keenly aware of her share of responsibility in the sitch.

 

[white avenger]

I know you and if you say you would want him to not intervene you are lying through your teeth.

I'll keep it civil if you will, Miss K, but let's leave my teeth out of this. It was my understanding that we were having a friendly debate here, discussing our different views on a hypothetical variation of a subject that we both find unpleasant, to say the least. Obviously it's gone a bit further than I ever wanted it to, so, rather than risk offending you or anyone else here any more than I apparently already have, I will retire from the discussion and leave it to you.

 

[Gum Gnome33]

If Buffy hadn't stopped him he would have forced sexual intercourse on her and it would have been rape. The fact that she stopped him makes it attempted rape.Consent can be taken away at any point during intercourse. The fact that Spike ignored Buffy's dissent and then protestations, well there is your intent.

I understand what you're saying but to my mind the fact that once he realized what he was doing, (once she kicked him off), it was so clear that he'd never meant to hurt her, and that rape was never his intent. Instead his intent was to initiate sexual intercourse the same way they both had, (to make her feel "love" for him), throughout their relationship. Buffy had come to him and forced herself on him, so if he thought that that was the way to initiate sex, combined with his reaction after realizing what he was close to doing, I just can't accept that he intended to hurt her.

Buffy couldn't have been more clear about it. She wasn't consenting, she protested vigorously and he continued to initiate a sexual act against her will.

But the same thing happened in "Gone" with the roles reversed and no one seems to bat an eyelash at that. Just because Spike eventually gave in, (primarily because he loved her so much and would rather be uncomfortable in her presence than lose her), doesn't mean it isn't a form of rape,if rape is defined in this way.

There is a stigma with rape and sexual assault in society. Because of this over 60% of all sexual assaults go unreported.

Oh I totally agree, (and this may come to a shock to some considering my position on the boards but--without getting into detail--I know that very well.) I'm just saying that a beating to near death in an alley is certainly a parallel and there was no third party intervention there; Spike kept silent about it because he didn't want to confront Buffy and risk "losing" her. At that point Spike was harmless and trying to turn his life around the best way he knew how yet he was almost killed; there was no "public" involvement, but should there have been? I don't know, either way, but I think that what was necessary in one scenario should be in the other.

But how is Angel to know that? We're talking about a conversation happening within minutes (possibly hours) of the attack. The OP asked what Angel would do, this is what I believe he would do. He would know nothing of Spike's (apparent) good deeds.

Good points. I guess I just mean that for the sake of storytelling, it would have taken a lot away from Spike's development if Angel had been the one to send him off and point out what he'd done, and not Spike himself.

 

[Skytteflickan88]

EvilWillow agrees: I dont think he was complaining about Darla raping him in his sleep. 😛

He didn't seem happy about it either.

I hated that scene when that was mentioned, it was just Cordelia making a joke about how they couldn't find Darla, they just knew she had been on top of Angel. I really think they handled tha subject of women raping men badly.

---------- Post added at 01:27 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:25 PM ----------

Yes, he was that twisted, he was lost and had given up in being good - but him and Darla always had a dysfunctional, mutually-abusive relationship. Think about it. She made him, destroyed his humanity, and made him into her killing protege. They were never equal - she loved him and he never loved her, by his own omission. Using each other for sex never seemed like a big deal to these two.

Darla basically rapes Angel in his sleep when she was hired by W&H.

I know, their "relationship" was so ****ed up. And I know that he doesn't rape a good person, it's Darla, but man, bleurgh.

 

[Kana]

He didn't seem happy about it either.

I hated that scene when that was mentioned, it was just Cordelia making a joke about how they couldn't find Darla, they just knew she had been on top of Angel. I really think they handled tha subject of women raping men badly.

.

I must admit I didn't think about it, but it's actually quite realistic. It's not just men who take the subject seriously, but also a lot of women. Cordy making a joke about it and Angel and Wesley saying nothing, is pretty much what would happen.

I do take your point though: female on male rape isn't handled well enough on cinema and television in general. I still cringe when I watch 40 Days and 40 Nights.

 

[Gum Gnome33]

I just realized I said something stupid in my previous post and just wanted to clarify what I meant:

Referring to Gone:

Just because Spike eventually gave in, (primarily because he loved her so much and would rather be uncomfortable in her presence than lose her), doesn't mean it isn't a form of rape,if rape is defined in this way.

Obviously rape is defined in this way, as [MENTION=7585]Kean[/MENTION] pointed out:

She wasn't consenting, she protested vigorously and he continued to initiate a sexual act against her will.

That's absolutely the definition and I shouldn't have said it wasn't!

What I meant to say is that when it comes to the intent of Buffy in Gone and Spike in Seeing Red, one needs to take into consideration the nature of their relationship and the precedent they had established for initiating sex in order to determine if there was any ill will there. So in "Gone," one has to either believe that Buffy intended to rape Spike (and that she, in fact, did)--if one believes that Spike intended to rape Buffy. There was aggression and lack of consent in both scenes. But there was no ill will. So...

All this is to point out, along the lines of what [MENTION=6758]white avenger[/MENTION] was saying with regard to Angel's involvement--while there is no denying that a near rape happened in Seeing Red, (and truly there was a frank sexual assault--maybe rape-- on behalf of Buffy in Gone), the question of intent is what I have issue with, (I believe it can't be called an "attempted" rape since there was no intent,) and had Angel come in he wouldn't have had any context.

If Spike had walked in on Angel draining the life out of Buffy in season 3, (and say he'd had feelings for her back then), he'd have certainly killed Angel. But again, he'd have had no context; no knowledge that Buffy had at one point consented. At that moment, she could have decided that she'd like very much not to die and no one would know. And that's what Spike would have reacted to. But it wouldn't have been fair. Angel's demon had come out and was taking advantage of Buffy at that moment; Angel was really nowhere to be found. In the same way, in the bathroom, Spike's demon was in control. Because of the context, neither vamp deserved to die regardless of the fact that what they were in the process of doing was very, very bad. I think this is what WA meant when he was referring to the issue of a third party's interpretation.

 

[white avenger]

It was my intention not to become further involved in this debate, but upon re-reading what has been said to this point, primarily my own comments, I would like to clarify something.

Previously, when I said "I can understand (Angel) dragging (Spike) away, then standing back..." my meaning was that if Angel's primary concern actually would be to protect and defend Buffy, if his love for her was, indeed, his primary concern, fighting Spike would have come a distant second to assuring that she was uninjured. Whether because of actually realizing what he had done or out of fear of what Angel might do to him once pulled away, Spike would not have continued his attack, so there would be no immediate danger from him. Buffy, however, could have been badly injured, in need of immediate attention.

If Angel could not have known the actual circumstances leading up to Spike's attack, then common logic would dictate that he would also not have known that Spike's assault was sexual in nature. Indeed, he would have almost certainly have believed that Spike was trying to drain her, in which case, as he knew quite well from personal experience, she could have been in desperate need of an immediate blood transfusion. In that case, wasting time venting his anger on Spike might very well have meant Buffy's death. By the time that he had assured that she was in no immediate danger, Buffy would have had plenty of time to make it clear to Angel that, though she might actually be grateful for his initial assistance, any retaliation or revenge would be hers, and hers alone. Hence my assertion that what happened in that bathroom was between Buffy and Spike, and none of anyone else's business.

I haven't seen this as an Angel vs Spike debate, despite what might have been interpreted from my posts, as much as it was an assertion that, while seeing to Buffy's immediate needs might be considered something that Angel would have every right, even duty, to perform, punishing Spike was not, and taking it upon himself to do so would be interfering where he was neither needed nor wanted, and Buffy, given the opportunity, would have made that very clear to him.

 

[Kean]

I just want to clarify something here, because this topic inevitably becomes charged in a way that can cause people to spark off each other. Whatever I say, whatever point I argue, however I disagree, I do so directly in relation to the topic and discussion. Not the poster. I got personal with WA when I shouldn't have, and I apologise for that. Even among friends this is the most unfriendly of topics.

What I meant to say is that when it comes to the intent of Buffy in Gone and Spike in Seeing Red, one needs to take into consideration the nature of their relationship and the precedent they had established for initiating sex in order to determine if there was any ill will there. So in "Gone," one has to either believe that Buffy intended to rape Spike (and that she, in fact, did)--if one believes that Spike intended to rape Buffy. There was aggression and lack of consent in both scenes. But there was no ill will. So...

I've seen this argument used several times, and often as a means of making Buffy and Spike "even". Like if she had raped him (a point which I emphatically disagree with) it would somehow lessen what he tried to do to her. Which of course it wouldn't, it would just mean they both did something abhorrent to each other and were equally reprehensible.

The scene in Gone and the scene in Seeing Red are like night in day. The only common factor they share is that Spike and Buffy were in them both.

"Gone"

ON SPIKE, looking chagrined. After a beat...

SPIKE
That was bloody stupid.

BUFFY (V.0.)
(playfully)
What's the matter? Ashamed to be seen with me?

He gets up. We clearly see Buffy's form under the sheet.

BUFFY (cont'd; V.0.)
C'mon. He had no idea I was here.
This is perfect.

SPIKE
Perfect for you.

BUFFY (V.0)
(beat)
Well. Picture me confused. I
thought this is what you wanted.

SPIKE
What I want...
(beat, then)
This vanishing act's right liberating
for you, in'it? Be anywhere you want.
Do anything you want.
(pointedly)
Or anyone.

BUFFY (V.0.)
What are you talking-

Spike looks at her.

SPIKE
Only reason you're here is that
You're not here.

Buffy's form sits up in bed.

BUFFY (V.0.)
What? That's -- that's not...

SPIKE
Both know it's true, Luv. So, skip
the denial. May not be able to see you,
but I can still see through you.

BUFFY (V.0.)
I didn't make this happen to me.
I didn't ask for this.

SPIKE
Not too put off by it though, are ya?

She doesn't answer.

SPIKE (cont'd)
Doesn't matter. After your chums
work out how to bring you back to
living color, you'll start stringing
me along again like some lovesick
wanker. Like all this has been just
some sweet, twisted fantasy in my
chip-addled brain...

BUFFY (V.0.)
I... I thought we were... having fun.

SPIKE
Fun's over. Just go. Get dressed,
if you can find your clothes and push off.
'Cause if I can't have all of you, I'd rather--

He stops, suddenly surprised, and looks down at his below-frame nether region.

SPIKE (cont'd)
Okay, that's cheating!

Source: Shoot Script

This is a lovers tiff. Not once does Spike reject Buffy's physical advances. Not once does he tell her no or stop. Similarly there is nothing in the stage directions to suggest that Spike his being forced into a sexual act against his will. His feelings are hurt. He wants more of a legitimate relationship and she just wants the physical side. If anything she seduces him. It's playful. Spike is into it.

This is not rape. Not even close.

"Seeing Red"

INT. BUFFY'S HOUSE - UPSTAIRS BATHROOM - NIGHT

Buffy enters in a bathrobe. She goes to the tub, grimacing at the pain in her back as she leans down to start the water.

SPIKE (O.S.)
(concerned)
You hurt?

Buffy gasps. Spike is now standing in the doorway (sans leather coat).

BUFFY
Get out.

SPIKE
We need to talk.

BUFFY
I really don't.

SPIKE
This isn't just about you -- as much
you'd like it to be.

BUFFY
You spoke. I listened. You leave.

SPIKE
(soft, sincere)
I'm sorry.

The sincerity in his voice affects Buffy despite her anger and hurt.

SPIKE (cont'd)
Not that it matters now. But I
needed you to know that.

BUFFY
Why?

SPIKE
Because I care about you.

BUFFY
Then you might want to try the not
sleeping with my friends.

SPIKE
That's not... I didn't go to Anya for
that. I was looking for a spell.

BUFFY
(anger rising)
You were going to use a spell on me?

SPIKE
It wasn't for you. I wanted
something -- anything to make this
feeling stop. I just wanted it to
stop.
(a beat, soft)
You should have let him kill me.

BUFFY
I couldn't.

SPIKE
Why?

BUFFY
You know why.

SPIKE
Because you love me.

A beat. This has gone way beyond pain and retribution. It's down to the truth now, once and for all.

BUFFY
(softly, honestly)
No. I don't.

SPIKE
Why do you keep lying
to yourself?

BUFFY
I'm not saying I don't have feelings
for you. I do. But it's not love.
I could never trust you enough for it
to become that.

SPIKE
Trust is for old marrieds, Buffy.
Great love is wild and passionate and
dangerous. It burns and consumes.

BUFFY
Until there's nothing left. That
kind of love doesn't last.

He's moving towards her, desperate, tortured.

SPIKE
I know you feel like I do. You don't
have to hide it anymore.

He moves to kiss her. She gently tries to stop him.

BUFFY
Spike --

SPIKE
Let yourself feel it...

He's becoming more forceful.

BUFFY
Stop it...

It's quickly escalated into a very real, very ugly struggle.

SPIKE
You love me...

BUFFY
Don't --

She stumbles back. She grabs onto the shower curtain, falling. The shower curtain rings pop off like gunfire as she goes down, WHACK! She gasps in pain as her back cracks against the edge of the tub, then her head as she stumbles more, dazing her.

Spike is on her, pinning her against the back of the tub, oblivious to her pain. His kisses are desperate, forceful.

SPIKE
(kissing her)
Let it go... Let yourself love me...

BUFFY
(over)
Stop it... please... stop...

He doesn't listen.

BLACK OUT.

END OF ACT TWO

Act Three
INT. BUFFY'S HOUSE - UPSTAIRS BATHROOM - NIGHT

Buffy struggles with Spike, pain shooting through her injured back. He's on top of her, desperate, hungry.

SPIKE
(kissing, touching)
I know you felt it... When I was
inside you...

BUFFY
Don't...

She manages to push him off. She scuttles for the door like a wounded animal. He catches her leg, scrambling back on top of her and pinning her wrists down.

SPIKE
You're going to let me inside you...

BUFFY
Please...

SPIKE
You'll feel it again, Buffy...

BUFFY
Spike, stop...

He tears at her robe, getting it open.

SPIKE
I'll make you feel it...

BUFFY
STOP!

She shoves him back, exploding. He flies across the room, smashing midway up the opposite wall, cracking the plaster and crashing to the floor. Buffy stands, trembling with rage, fear -- and reclaimed power.

BUFFY (cont'd)
Ask me again why I could never love
you.

Spike looks up at her, realizing how far he just crossed the line.

SPIKE
Oh god. Buffy... I didn't --

BUFFY
Because I stopped you. Something I
should have done a long time ago.

Spike can muster no response, the weight of his actions crushing down on him. Buffy stands motionless, her eyes slick with anger -- and a tinge of fear from almost being violated.

INT. THE BRONZE - NIGHT

Shooting Script

This is attempted rape.

In this scene alone Buffy told Spike No, no less than 6 times.

She begged him to stop, no less than 5 times.

She equally says ow, no less than 5 times.

There is one instance where she pleads "Please don't do this".

On SIX separate occasions she either struggles against him, reaches for the door or otherwise makes moves to leave the room and him, where Spike pulls her back, straddles her, rips her clothing and pins her arms to the floor.

The stage direction repeatedly mention words and phrases like, forceful, ugly struggle, he doesn't listen, desperate, hungry, and violated.

The difference between the two scenes, both on paper and on screen, are stark. Neither one could be mistaken for the other.

the question of intent is what I have issue with, (I believe it can't be called an "attempted" rape since there was no intent,) and had Angel come in he wouldn't have had any context.

For me, once she says no and stop it once and he remarks with things like "You're going to let me inside you", "I'll make you feel it", that is all the proof of intent I need. She said no. He ignored her dissent and continued with forcing himself on her.

 

[Gum Gnome33]

Not once does he tell her no or stop.

SPIKE
Fun's over. Just go. Get dressed,
if you can find your clothes and push off.
'Cause if I can't have all of you, I'd rather--

Just because he gives in does not mean it isn't sexual assault. It is. The absence of "no" is not "yes," and in any case, he very much says no, though not literally. There's lighthearted music playing in the background, and we're meant to believe that it's okay for Buffy to do this because Spike wants to have sex with her, deep down. That is dangerous logic. Also, if Spike were a woman and Buffy a man, (or even worse, a vampire), you can be this scene wouldn't have that lighthearted quality to it, and we'd all be freaking out. Many people, (primarily women), feel that they haven't been raped, or feel guilty with regard to assuming that it might be rape, because at some point they had consented--whether before the act began or later on. But this does not take away the lack of consent.
Another huge difference is that the scene ends here. We don't see what happens next. Perhaps Spike continues to protest. Who knows what happens for the rest of the afternoon. But it's not fair to deem it tame in comparison to the bathroom scene, (in terms of intent and culpability), simply because we do not see any more of it.

I've seen this argument used several times, and often as a means of making Buffy and Spike "even". Like if she had raped him (a point which I emphatically disagree with) it would somehow lessen what he tried to do to her.

I don't mean at all to say that because she did it to him that it lessons what he did. People use logic like that in real life and it absolutely horrifies me. My point is that one is considered nothing, and the other is. And, in my opinion, is a very dangerous logic.

Which of course it wouldn't, it would just mean they both did something abhorrent to each other and were equally reprehensible.They both did abhorrent things to each other and were equally reprehensible. That is what I mean.

And I completely agree.

The other reason I bring up the scene in Gone for the sake of comparison is to illustrate the precedent for the nature of their sexual encounters. A soulless demon who himself has been sexually assaulted by a human being might not grasp right away that what he is doing is wrong. I don't think it's fair for us to assume that he will. But his reaction once he does realize it tells me everything I need to know regarding his intent, (lack thereof), to hurt her. For him it was a means to an end and while that in no way makes it ok, it is paramount to understanding where he was coming from and for me informs what I think of him. If I saw this scene as Spike intentionally trying to rape Buffy as opposed to Spike trying to get Buffy to have consensual sex with him like she had before, (in a very similar matter with differences that are hard for a soulless demon to detect), I would not have continued to like Spike. At all. I wanted to make that clear.

Also [MENTION=7585]Kean[/MENTION] thanks for reiterating that it is the opinion we are fighting and not the person. I would like to second that!!

 

[SlayerFest]

As strange as this might seem, and it has nothing whatsoever to do with ship loyalty, I think that Buffy would have stopped Angel from doing anything, on the simple grounds that it wasn't any of his business, any more than it was Xander's, Dawn's, or anyone else's.

This isn't a Spuffy or a Bangel issue to me...because I don't really ship either one, but if Angel saw what Spike was trying to do, I would find it kind of sick if he hadn't thrown him off of her. What reason can you give me, besides the "fact" that it wasn't "anyone's business" for why Buffy would tell Angel to not help her, when she obviously needed help? And you truly believe that Buffy, while screaming for Spike to get off her, would yell, "No! Angel, I've got this!!" she felt helpless. She could barely get him off her herself because of her back. Even if Buffy was crazy enough to believe that Angel would have "no right" to help her, while Spike was clearly hurting her, it would still be pretty disgusting if Angel just shrugged and walked away or something. I am so beyond confused. There is a difference between not being there and making assumptions about what went down...but if Angel witnessed it and tried to intervene, why would that be a problem? Buffy didn't seem to have a problem with Xander being pissed about what happened, not once did she say, "That is none of your business." so why the hell would she say that to someone trying to rescue her from the situation itself, someone who was actually there and saw it all happen? I understand saying that no one had the right to speculate about what happened, but Angel, in this scenario, witnessed it.

 

[Kean]

Just because he gives in

But gives in to what? There was never a fight or persistence. Spike rants about how Buffy likes being invisible because it allows her to be with him without it being "real" and then the scene leads us to believe that Buffy initiates oral sex with him.

And if it was the other way around, with Buffy being the one ranting and Spike being the one seducing her I would feel the exact same way. They both engaged in a consented sex act. There is no case or claim for rape in this scene.

No more than there would be if a couple had a fight in bed, the husband get upset, the wife asks him to come back to bed, he remains huffy, she kisses him, they have sex.

If anything, the Gone scene shows the beginnings of make up sex.

Also [MENTION=7585]Kean[/MENTION] thanks for reiterating that it is the opinion we are fighting and not the person. I would like to second that!!

🙂