Healthiest Relationship

Yes to Roger and Trish Burkles. No to Faith/Wood. I don't like how a random pairing somehow morphed into a really implausable relatonship. and I certainly didn't see enough to call it healthy. Plus a early twenties ex-con and a mid-thirties school principal having anything stable/lasting is unlikely.

Add to that the fact that they broke up and haven't spoken to each other since- so it couldn't have been that amicable a 'ship.

Xander/Dawn- I say these two because their breakup was probably the most amicable/mature we've seen in the Buffyverse and they'll probably get back together. On reflection they make a good pairing despite the addition of Xander's 'anger management' issues that came out of nowhere.
 
thetopher said:
I know. A lot of these people ignore all the foul and disgusting things said by Spike to Buffy(in S6), his stalker behaviour, the violence (done by both of them to be fair but almost always brought on by Spike) and the ample evidence that he's still, y'know, a hateful, evil like snot, to go 'ooh, he's so bad/sexy. Look he's all naked!'
Not to mention Buffy's deprression and self-disgust at herself for lowering to sleeping with something that was beneath her. 🙁



I'm not really astonshised any more, more saddened and also a little nauseus by all the blinkered views of that so many have of S6 Spuffy- in every way the anti-ship, where two people make each other worse off by getting involved in a relationship.

I mean, I can at least on some level understand S7. I don't see it myself but there are some okay moments, but otherwise...*looks in vain for the disgust emoticon* 😵 (this will have to do)
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Yes, she did lower herself, but only after she pulled down his zipper. 🙂

Buffy was depressed long before the sexcapades began - and Spike was the only one she turned to. It wasn't healthy but I really find it hard to take all of Buffy's power away and paint her as the innocent victim of abuse. Buffy was not a victim - she was a full participant in every aspect of that relationship. She took full responsibility for her half of the debacle. And yes, it was about as dysfunctional as it could be, and then some.

But souled Spike never even touched her - never tried to get back with her. He had one moral compass - if Buffy says it, then it is right. That was a few steps in the right direction. I can envision them working out something reasonably healthy. Then again, I find perfectly healthy relationships boring and unreal. I prefer Wesley/Lilah to Wesley/Fred. Lilah and Wesley challenge each other, push each other. But when Wesley tells Fred he was in love with her before he met her then it's obvious he is in love with an ideal. (Either one would be sooo lucky!)
 
bespangeled said:
It wasn't healthy but I really find it hard to take all of Buffy's power away and paint her as the innocent victim of abuse.
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I completely agree. It's an interesting issue, one I've been pondering about for a while now actually - character's agency vs victim blaming. Because of the rape attempt we like to think of Buffy as a victim and OK, without a doubt she is a victim but she's not without blame. Basically, Buffy was almost raped because she is an idiot. There, I said it. She knows what Spike is - he's a monster. Among other things he tried to kill her, tried to rape her friend and yet she decides to go to bed with him and not just that, she engages in kinky activities without setting boundaries. Honestly, how did she not expect to be sexually assaulted? She's stupid.

And that's perfectly fine. She has the right to be stupid. Whenever people blame Spike on everything that happened in this pairing they take away that right, they deny the character's agency. That is not OK so don't white knight people.
 
EVIL UU said:
I completely agree. It's an interesting issue, one I've been pondering about for a while now actually - character's agency vs victim blaming. Because of the rape attempt we like to think of Buffy as a victim and OK, without a doubt she is a victim but she's not without blame. Basically, Buffy was almost raped because she is an idiot. There, I said it. She knows what Spike is - he's a monster. Among other things he tried to kill her, tried to rape her friend and yet she decides to go to bed with him and not just that, she engages in kinky activities without setting boundaries. Honestly, how did she not expect to be sexually assaulted? She's stupid.

And that's perfectly fine. She has the right to be stupid. Whenever people blame Spike on everything that happened in this pairing they take away that right, they deny the character's agency. That is not OK so don't white knight people.
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Thank you - what the hell kind of slayer gets into this kind of position with an unsouled vampire. Hey, even souled ones can surprise you and she knows that. That does not excuse Spike in any way - but context is not the same as victim blaming. Buffy was as dysfunctional as Spike in that relationship. She wanted the fire back - she was thrill seeking. I do believe Spike loved her in his own demonic way - but his main sex partner was Dru - not a model of mental health and trained by Angelus to like pain. So sex and violence blended - really a volatile recipe for disaster.
 
bespangeled said:
Yes, she did lower herself, but only after she pulled down his zipper. 🙂
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Thank you - what the hell kind of slayer gets into this kind of position with an unsouled vampire.
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What a sadness these words. Everything is permitted in order to defend their favorite character, including... as it says in English? Slut-shaming?
It wasn't healthy but I really find it hard to take all of Buffy's power away and paint her as the innocent victim of abuse. Buffy was not a victim - she was a full participant in every aspect of that relationship. She took full responsibility for her half of the debacle.
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As well as can be participant a person that filters the perception of the world, through the magnifying glass of his clinical depression, isn't it?
 
janas said:
What a sadness these words. Everything is permitted in order to defend their favorite character, including... as it says in English? Slut-shaming?

As well as can be participant a person that filters the perception of the world, through the magnifying glass of his clinical depression, isn't it?
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There's no slut shaming here - just questioning the choices Buffy made when she was suffering from depression. That is the hardest part of depression; what you do when you are not thinking clearly.
 
I think many people look at 'Seeing Red' through the prism of what happens later in S7. We see Buffy blame herself almost exclusively for what happened through all of S6- ('CWDP' she used Spike because she hated herself, etc,) she still feels a lot of self-hate for her actions, and yet Spike...not so much.
He's not really called into account for his actions. (see the scene at the end of 'Beneath Her' where even in the throes of madness its emphasised by the writers in Spike's speech that she used him.)

And Spike is trusted as if he's a completely different man (primarily by Buffy) even though he hasn't outwardly significantly changed and is shown to be mentally unstable (to put it mildly) for most of the season.
So I think that's why a lot of people slam Spike so much more in the attempted rape scenario- because the writers don't.

As for Buffy being an idiot- I agree to an extent (not that it any way justifies Spike's actions) and it certainly explains her stupid actions afterwards (attempting to leave Dawn in Spike's care? wtf. ).
Also it doesn't stop in S6, Moron-Buffy takes the wheel for a good part of S7, but it's seen as 'okay' because it's all in the name of Spuffy. 🙄🙂
 
Maybe, and I underline maybe, Angel and Nina, if it lasted more than a blink of an eyelashes it could have been a healthy relationship. Maybe. But with Buffy still in the picture, I doubt that this relationship could go on for a long time. Was doomed from the start, but while it lasted (one night?) they were a cute couple.

I don't answer to slut-thing, why talk about Spuffy, in a thread that has the word "Healthiest" in the title, is really hilarious. I will not repeat the same mistake again. Maybe in another thread, but not here.

And, yes The Burkles!
 
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MarlieTheSlayer said:
I'm shocked people participate in victim shaming. You wrongly shift blame from the guilty party onto the victim. I don't care if Buffy was "dumb", it still wasn't her fault.
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Is Buffy not responsible for her own safety then? Example. A woman jumps over the fence in a zoo. The animals kill her. Is she without blame just because she is a victim? No. It is her fault and I see no reason why she should not be blamed. In "The Real Me" Buffy grills Dawn for inviting Harmony:

Buffy: No. Not all better. I mean, it's not like Dawn hasn't grown up in this house knowing all the rules.
Buffy: Especially the biggie! Numero one-oh. "Do not invite bloodsucking dead people into our house." I mean, please. I would never have Harmony over even when she was alive.
Xander: People slip, Buffy. Your mom did. She invited in the mas-Dracula. In for coffee.
Buffy: Well, that was different. I mean, she...He would...She was lonely, and, and, and she didn't know he was a vampire. *The* vampire. Meanwhile, Dawn knew exactly what Harmony was and she rolled out the welcome mat for her.
Riley: She's just a kid.
Buffy: You know, will everybody please stop saying that? I was just a kid when I met my first vampire, but somehow, I still managed to remember the rules.
Riley: You had to. It was your job.
Buffy: No. No, it was common sense. But nobody expects even that much from Dawn, do they? No, she has to be protected and coddled from the big bad world, well you know what? We are doing nothing but turning her into a little idiot who is going to get us all killed.

Then in "The Gift":

Spike: Uh, Buffy...
Spike: If you wanna just hand them over the threshold
Buffy: Come in, Spike.

Boom. As the vampire slayer Buffy decides to trust a vampire. That's her jumping over the fence. This is why, I believe, she is not blameless.
 
thetopher said:
I know. A lot of these people ignore all the foul and disgusting things said by Spike to Buffy(in S6), his stalker behaviour, the violence (done by both of them to be fair but almost always brought on by Spike) and the ample evidence that he's still, y'know, a hateful, evil like snot, to go 'ooh, he's so bad/sexy. Look he's all naked!'
Not to mention Buffy's deprression and self-disgust at herself for lowering to sleeping with something that was beneath her. 🙁
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Agreed. Normally I don't like to just make these kinds of generalizations, but I do often get the sense that people who are in favor of this particular pairing willfully overlook the truly sick and twisted aspects of this relationship because they thought the violent sex was hot.

EVIL UU said:
Basically, Buffy was almost raped because she is an idiot.
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I can't believe you went there. While I do agree there was reciprocal abuse between the two throughout their relationship (that's why I say they are the unhealthiest relationship in the Buffyverse), nothing justifies sexual assault.

EVIL UU said:
Is Buffy not responsible for her own safety then? Example. A woman jumps over the fence in a zoo. The animals kill her. Is she without blame just because she is a victim? No. It is her fault and I see no reason why she should not be blamed.
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Think about what you are saying. A caged animal in a zoo does not have any agency. Yes, people should be careful with regards to their own personal safety, but a lack of care doesn't excuse another's choice to come and commit assault. Buffy was in her bathroom, getting ready to take a bath. I don't think it's unreasonable for people to expect some privacy and safety in that sort of a setting. Living her life in her own home does not put the fault on her.

thetopher said:
I think many people look at 'Seeing Red' through the prism of what happens later in S7. We see Buffy blame herself almost exclusively for what happened through all of S6- ('CWDP' she used Spike because she hated herself, etc,) she still feels a lot of self-hate for her actions, and yet Spike...not so much.
He's not really called into account for his actions. (see the scene at the end of 'Beneath Her' where even in the throes of madness its emphasised by the writers in Spike's speech that she used him.)

And Spike is trusted as if he's a completely different man (primarily by Buffy) even though he hasn't outwardly significantly changed and is shown to be mentally unstable (to put it mildly) for most of the season.
So I think that's why a lot of people slam Spike so much more in the attempted rape scenario- because the writers don't.
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I agree. And I know you also make it a point to say that Spike fans will defend him to the death, however irrationally, and I also just want to add that, when these seasons aired, Spike was an incredibly popular character (for the life of me, I can't figure out why Spike fans seem to think chiseled cheekbones and the occasional snark so overwhelmingly outweigh all of his negative traits). Because he was so popular, I get the sense that the writers and network were eager to paint him as sympathetically as possible. Basically, I'm saying I agree with you, and that I think part of why I really dislike this kind of blind Spike fandom is because there never seemed to be any real consequences for what he had done. In fact--Buffy goes on to continue trusting him with her sister's care, defending his actions against the other Scoobies (who at least showed an iota of indignation at his actions), and even developing feelings for her purported rapist. The blind Spike fandom didn't just insulate the character from any kind of comeuppance; it rewarded him. This is one of the things I find so troubling about his character and the way people view him. 
janas said:
I don't answer to slut-thing, why talk about Spuffy, in a thread that has the word "Healthiest" in the title, is really hilarious. I will not repeat the same mistake again. Maybe in another thread, but not here.
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You're right -- it was my mistake for bringing it up as an example of what I consider to be one of the unhealthiest relationships. As someone who thinks sexual assault should never be blamed on the victim, though, I did feel I needed to respond to some of the comments saying Buffy was at fault for the rape incident.
 
janas
janas
It's ok. I was not referring to you :)
Thing about vampires, they can't enter unless you invite them in. The moment Buffy invites Spike she gives up that safety and comfort. Buffy learns that Spike can hurt her in "Smashed" and does absolutely nothing to ensure her safety. Spike is not a person, OK? He's not even named like one. He cannot be trusted. He can walk into Buffy's bedroom, like Angelus, and kill her while she's asleep. Nothing justifies a sexual assault just like nothing justifies complete disregard for one's own safety. Buffy has all the knowledge and all the power. She can slay Spike. She can ask Willow or Tara to cast a protection spell, hell, she could probably do it on her own. Again, she does nothing.

And this is why I cannot not blame her.
 
EVIL UU said:
Basically, Buffy was almost raped because she is an idiot.
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Well I kind of agree with that but it's not just Buffy. All of the core four were turned into brain dead morons when Spike got the immunity idol shoved in his head. It just drives me nuts how much none of it makes sense.

Giles who lost the only woman he has ever loved to another vampire when his 'device' suddenly stopped working is fine with having Spike in his apartment and even watched TV with him. Xander who was never ok with Angel and went all *faster pussycat, kill kill* even on a souled Angel lets Spike live with him. Willow whose one encounter with Spike in S3 almost lead to her being raped or killed or both. When the same situation arises again she's all depressed that Spike didn't succeed (I know she was depressed because of OZ but come on). Xander and Giles just stand there like idiots when Spike said he would sick Faith on them. Once they found out he betrayed them to Adam and they still don't think something needs to be done? With Buffy it really starts in S5 at which point I just don't know wth is going on anymore. Who are these people? What kind of bizarro world am I forced to watch here?

But to stay more on topic. I would say that Fred's parents are probably the only healthy relationship on either show.
 
"Who are these people? What kind of bizarro world am I forced to watch here?"

A) Nobodys forcing anyone to watch it, and B) well Buffy has always had a healthy dollop of humor running through it's plots (at least up till season 6 where the humour started to be less prevalent) and just watching certain scenes you know they're meant to be seen in a much more humorous light then others.
 
Silverspike said:
"Who are these people? What kind of bizarro world am I forced to watch here?"

A) Nobodys forcing anyone to watch it,
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You are so right. I really should have used my amazing ability to see into the future when these Seasons first aired and should have seeen all the character/relationship assasinations, mythology destruction and Spike being the most important person in this verse coming a mile away. Because they totally set that up in the first 3 Seasons.
 
What the hell has that got to do with what I wrote? But to be honest If you don't like how the series turned out well tough really.
 
Sorry, but I cannot remain silent!!
EVIL UU said:
Thing about vampires, they can't enter unless you invite them in. The moment Buffy invites Spike she gives up that safety and comfort. Buffy learns that Spike can hurt her in "Smashed" and does absolutely nothing to ensure her safety. Spike is not a person, OK? He's not even named like one. He cannot be trusted. He can walk into Buffy's bedroom, like Angelus, and kill her while she's asleep. Nothing justifies a sexual assault just like nothing justifies complete disregard for one's own safety. Buffy has all the knowledge and all the power. She can slay Spike. She can ask Willow or Tara to cast a protection spell, hell, she could probably do it on her own. Again, she does nothing.

And this is why I cannot not blame her.
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...which translated it become:

If a woman goes home with a man she doesn't know, it is her own fault if she is raped. When women are raped, it’s often because the way they said ‘no’ was ambiguous. A woman who dresses in skimpy clothes should not be surprised if a man tries to force her to have sex. When women go around braless or wearing short skirts and tight tops, they are just asking for trouble. Women who get raped while hitchhiking get what they deserve. A woman who is stuck‐up and thinks she is too good to talk to guys on the street deserves to be taught a lesson.

And this is why I cannot not blame women who are raped. Basically, women are raped because they are idiots.

It sounds better put it so?
 
Skanky Vamp
Skanky Vamp
You forgot that even though a woman has had sexual encounters with the person before if he forces himself upon her it's rape too
@janas

I'm not here to take part in ideological debates - sorry. I'll just say this - Spike is not a man. He's a dead abomination no different than those Buffy slays every night. Buffy understands it, disregards it and then suffers because of it. Choices and consequences, OK?
 
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