Help a girl out - why Spuffy? Why Bangel? I have both love and doubts! :)

[This Year's Girl]

Ok, so here’s the thing. I don’t believe in this either or deal, so I’m not really asking you to help me choose, I’m more asking you for help to fully support both teams 😉

I’ve always had a thing for Spuffy. It’s never been a matter of me believing that they belong together. It’s more a matter of me thinking the way Spike is unhappily in love with Buffy is portraited beautiful. I’m a either or girl when it comes to relationships, can’t be just a little friends or just a little in love, have to have everything NOW NOW NOW, and as that’s what the Spuffy relationship is all about for me – someone giving their all to someone else without really caring if they get something back – I can’t help to be drawn to it. In real life I think those kind of relationships can be really harmful (I know mine were when I was younger. Today it’s more a matter of me loving without giving up or hurting myself, but it wasn’t like that before), but portraited on TV I have huge weakness for it. In queer as folk UK Vincent says about his love to Stuart ”Unhappy love is the greatest love of all, ’cause it never has to die and it never has to grow old”, and in the Spuffy case I think he has a huge point. However. Lately when I’ve been rewatching the series (my first time, I only ever finished Btvs april or may last year) I can’t help to think that maybe Spuffy is TO harmful. I catch myself feeling really uncomfortable with season 6 and wish they would leave each other alone. I kind of feel that there comes a point when unhappy love can’t be romanticesed anymore, and that Spuffy might have crossed it. And that’s when I started thinking about Bangel.

When I first watched Btvs I thought Bangel was lame. My main issue was, and still is, that Angel doesn’t seem to believe in Buffy’s full capability – in some ways he wants to protect her in ways that she doesn’t need to be protected in, which makes me think that he isn’t treating her like an equal. In other cases they really are equals though – IMO opinion he really admire and respect her the way she admires and respects him. I didn’t really think about this my first watch, but doing my second now and after watching Ats I have a newfound respect for Angel. But then, of course, it also is the matter of Cangel which I LOVE and always will love. That, clearly, isn’t going to work out though for obvious reasons (You’re welcome 🙁), but I’m not sure I see Bangel being a longterm "forever" thing either. Or…. Maybe I do. I'm not sure yet.

I’m not really sure of anything. And that’s where you guys come in! 🙂 Dear Spuffies, dear Bangelers (and dear anyone else who actually had the strenght to go through this lenghty post 😀): How do you feel about my doubts? How could one see them differently/argue against/for them? Which arguments could be used to see more good in your ship?

As I said, I’m not really looking for to be ”turned”, just to support both teams. 🙂 And if this post gets any answers (I have my doubts 😉) I don’t want it to turn in to a fight. I’m mainly asking you to talk in behalf of your ’ship – not diss the other one. 🙂 If you feel the absolute need to talk against the other one as part of your argument, please do it in a respectful way. 🙂

 

[Washburne]

Support Cangel. Or Tillow. Problem solved. 😀





Oh, not the purpose. Sorry. Well then. No relationship is perfect. Not even in fiction. I think your doubts are valid and in general I don't see anything wrong in loving both. If you can appriciate both it's great. You'll always find less good or bad things in people and relationships. Do you feel the need to have one ship with a future, they'll be endgame? Then I can't help you. I go with the relationships or characters that affect me in a special way and nobody can tell me how I'm wrong. It's my feelings but they can disagree if they don't feel the same. Since I'm not a Bangel or Spuffy I can't really speak for or against any of them. Go with both as long as you no longer want that.

 

[This Year's Girl]

Support Cangel. Or Tillow. Problem solved. 😀

Oh, not the purpose. Sorry. Well then. No relationship is perfect. Not even in fiction. I think your doubts are valid and in general I don't see anything wrong in loving both. If you can appriciate both it's great. You'll always find less good or bad things in people and relationships. Do you feel the need to have one ship with a future, they'll be endgame? Then I can't help you. I go with the relationships or characters that affect me in a special way and nobody can tell me how I'm wrong. It's my feelings but they can disagree if they don't feel the same. Since I'm not a Bangel or Spuffy I can't really speak for or against any of them. Go with both as long as you no longer want that.

Oh, don't worry, I'm a total Cangeler! 🙂 :heart:

I don't think I expressed myself clearly enough. I'm not looking for one 'ship to support. How it is today I'm much more a Spuffy than a Bangel, but I'm looking to be more in to both. Lately I've been having doubts about Spuffy. For me to be able to love both I think I need discuss my doubts about Spuffy. maybe put them to rest, and see more good things about the relationship. I also need to see more good things about Bangel (which I actually think could be a ship I really like even if I don't now) and discuss my doubts about them.

Get me now? That should really be in the thread. Help, mod? 😀

 

[Ms.Trick]

I'm neither a Bangel nor a Spuffy, but if I had to chose it would be Spuffy, because I like Spike better than Angel.

The reason why I don't ship either is that, when you compare it to, I don't know, Xanya or Tillow, it's just not the same kind of love which makes you dream.

Bangel is a blind relationship to me. Buffy loves Angel more than anything in her life (never really understood why exactly), but when I look at it, I don't really see a bond between them (not like with Xanya or Tillow). There is no bond, they are just togheter, not togheter togheter. It's hard to explain 😀
And even tough they have their moments, Bangel scenes sometimes bore me.

Now, Spuffy. I think Spike would have been better for Buffy (and she could make him happy without making him lose his soul). While I got the feeling Angel was more looking for someone who loved him even tough he was a cursed broody vampire blablabla, I know Spike loved Buffy. He didn't love her because she loved him like Angel did. No, he loved her because it was Buffy. There is a more unique character to it I think. It feels like Angel could have loved anyone who loved him, while Spike didn't care about it. He loves, even tough it is not shared, he loves. Even when he sees the worst and the best, even when he is rejected, he still loves Buffy.
The problem in Spuffy comes from Buffy. She loved Angel more than anything, but with Spike it was different. I don't think she'll ever love Spike as much. But that's a detail, so I guess that if I had to chose, my nation would go to Spuffy rather than Bangel!

 

[Taake]

No relationship is perfect. Not even in fiction. I think your doubts are valid and in general I don't see anything wrong in loving both. If you can appriciate both it's great. You'll always find less good or bad things in people and relationships.

More or less what I was gonna say, so I fully agree and point to this great post 🙂



(except for the bit about Cangel *shivers* I don't have a single good word for Cangel 😉)

 

[This Year's Girl]

Yeah, I agree about both of you, but that wasn't really my point with the post... 🙂

 

[caitaintdead]

I'm like you. I see positives and negatives in both, but I prefer Spuffy because I found it to be something more interesting - something that really explored both Buffy and Spike as individuals. That's basically why I ship Spuffy over Bangel, I enjoyed watching their relationship unfold, and believe it was something that really mattered to the journey of each character. Of course that's just a personal opinion based on my experiences.

(And just to throw it out there - I still think that Spike and Angel make the perfect couple. I will always ship Spangel over Spuffy or Bangel)

 

[Kean]

When I first watched Btvs I thought Bangel was lame. My main issue was, and still is, that Angel doesn’t seem to believe in Buffy’s full capability – in some ways he wants to protect her in ways that she doesn’t need to be protected in, which makes me think that he isn’t treating her like an equal. In other cases they really are equals though – IMO opinion he really admire and respect her the way she admires and respects him. I didn’t really think about this my first watch, but doing my second now and after watching Ats I have a newfound respect for Angel. But then, of course, it also is the matter of Cangel which I LOVE and always will love. That, clearly, isn’t going to work out though for obvious reasons (You’re welcome ), but I’m not sure I see Bangel being a longterm "forever" thing either. Or…. Maybe I do. I'm not sure yet

Well from my perspective, Angel has nothing but complete trust in Buffy's capabilities, and pretty much always has. If he didn't think Buffy could handle any aspect of her life I don't think he would have left. I certainly don't believe he saw himself as some sort of protector of her. You could nearly argue it was quite the opposite.

Just look at scenes like in "Forever" when he tells her she is the strongest person he knows (and not just physically strong)". Or in "End of Days" when Buffy is fighting Caleb and Angel smugly tells him "You are so going to lose".

Angel knows what she is capable of. He loves what she is capable of.

I posted this ages ago, but it is essentially how I feel on the matter.

Buffy and Angel have this implicit, absolute trust in one another. When he rejects Twilight and the Universe's plan, he is trusting her completely. The same way he trusted her when she asked for a second front, when she told him to close his eyes, when she told him to just kiss her. It is the same trust as when he gave up his humanity (at least for the few moments that she knew what was happening), when he left Sunnydale, when she forced his lips to her neck. Alot of the time these decisions have caused unimaginable pain for both them and those around them but they keep doing it.

Every. Single. Time.

If Buffy and Angel believe in anything, it is each other.

 

[This Year's Girl]

.

Now, Spuffy. I think Spike would have been better for Buffy (and she could make him happy without making him lose his soul). While I got the feeling Angel was more looking for someone who loved him even tough he was a cursed broody vampire blablabla, I know Spike loved Buffy. He didn't love her because she loved him like Angel did. No, he loved her because it was Buffy. There is a more unique character to it I think. It feels like Angel could have loved anyone who loved him, while Spike didn't care about it. He loves, even tough it is not shared, he loves. Even when he sees the worst and the best, even when he is rejected, he still loves Buffy.
The problem in Spuffy comes from Buffy. She loved Angel more than anything, but with Spike it was different. I don't think she'll ever love Spike as much. But that's a detail, so I guess that if I had to chose, my nation would go to Spuffy rather than Bangel!

Interesting post! I agree about Spike loving Buffy regardless if she loves him, and that's why I like Spuffy. However, sometimes I feel it can borderline on creepy obession, do you agree? I don't agree about Angel loving anyone though, I think Buffy was really special for him.

---------- Post added at 03:11 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:08 PM ----------

Well from my perspective, Angel has nothing but complete trust in Buffy's capabilities, and pretty much always has. If he didn't think Buffy could handle any aspect of her life I don't think he would have left. I certainly don't believe he saw himself as some sort of protector of her. You could nearly argue it was quite the opposite.

Just look at scenes like in "Forever" when he tells her she is the strongest person he knows (and not just physically strong)". Or in "End of Days" when Buffy is fighting Caleb and Angel smugly tells him "You are so going to lose".

Angel knows what she is capable of. He loves what she is capable of.

Great points. Made me see things from a different angel and increased my bangel love! 😀 But I'm having a hard time with I will remember you - that time I really felt it was a matter of him not trusting her. No?

 

[white avenger]

My reason for supporting the Spuffy relationship are to me quite simple. I am all about the guy who sets himself an insurmountable goal, who works, develops, changes, even suffers to achieve that goal, and who, through his own efforts and determination, despite all opposition, succeeds. We get to see Spike develop from monster to informant, from informant to reluctant ally, from reluctant ally to supporter, from supporter to protector, from protector to hero, and finally, from hero to Champion. We see him fight for and earn his soul. We see him become literally the savior of the world. Yes, he does make mistakes along the way, some of which would seem almost unforgivable, but through everything, Spike always gets up one more time than he gets knocked down. He gives his loyalty, protection, and love without requiring that either be returned, and he honors his commitments even in the face of the distrust of those who should be encouraging him. He made a promise to a lady, and he honored that promise even though, to the best of his or anyone else's knowledge, he would never be held accountable for that promise. Everything that Spike becomes on the two shows, he works for, suffers for, fights for, and earns, including, I believe, the love of the aforementioned lady, Buffy.

Angel is certainly a hero, that point cannot be denied, at least through most of the 8 years of the televised shows. But,even in flashbacks provided later on, we never saw him really develop, and we never ever saw him earn his hero status, the way that we did with every character on either show, including Buffy. He just suddenly popped up, all tall, dark, mysterious, and with a tortured, tragic past, right out of a Harlequin Romance novel, just the sort of man into whose arms an adolescent girl, suddenly finding herself all alone and friendless, in about as hostile an environment as could be imagined, would melt.

It's just too easy and predictable. Bangel is a cliche' in the most classic sense, and I don't like cliche's. Spuffy is the love story with the plot twist, the mortal enemies who become lovers, the perfect example of Beauty and the Beast (though I'll fight anyone else who ever dares call my Buffy a beast!)

That's why I like Spuffy the best.

Okay, Bangels, feel free to rip all of my logic apart. Just be civil about it, please.

 

[Kean]

Great points. Made me see things from a different angel and increased my bangel love! 😀 But I'm having a hard time with I will remember you - that time I really felt it was a matter of him not trusting her. No?

I know everyone has varying opinions on IWRY, but to me it is Angel being told by an extremely reliable source that if he stays human, Buffy will die. And soon.

He begs for her life. The Oracles say no. He offers his, and the Oracles decide the terms. Angel didn't decide the swallowing of the day anymore than Buffy did. It was just what he was given. And the thing is, Buffy agrees with him. She understands and accepts his decision. The both clearly hate the decision.

I just can't be angry with him for not wanting Buffy to be dead.

Maybe it's because I think very like Angel, but if I was told that the person I love more than anything was going to die, then there is pretty much nothing that I wouldn't do to try and stop it.

 

[white avenger]

I know everyone has varying opinions on IWRY, but to me it is Angel being told by an extremely reliable source that if he stays human, Buffy will die. And soon.

More like Angel being manipulated by someone who he BELIEVES TO BE an extremely reliable source. Buffy still dies, and she does it in the act of protecting another human, her sister, Dawn. Granted, Angel didn't know that at the time, but it never ceases to amaze me that he never lost faith in the Powers after that. He threw away the chance to have a year of more or less normal life with the woman who he loved, to perhaps even have a child for her, only to see her die anyway.

 

[StarSlayer]

At the end of the day, you have to go with your own feelings toward each ship. I could give an extremely LONG post as to why Spuffy is superior over Bangel, but it's based on my strong feelings and love for the ship. If you feel something different or something better for Bangel or for another ship entirely, that's you. I can't force you or anyone to change your feelings toward a particular ship. But I can at least hope to get you and others to love or appreciate a ship as much as I do. 🙂

Lately when I’ve been rewatching the series (my first time, I only ever finished Btvs april or may last year) I can’t help to think that maybe Spuffy is TO harmful. I catch myself feeling really uncomfortable with season 6 and wish they would leave each other alone. I kind of feel that there comes a point when unhappy love can’t be romanticesed anymore, and that Spuffy might have crossed it. And that’s when I started thinking about Bangel.

There are definitely times in season 6 where Buffy and Spike's relationship takes turns for the worse. And honestly, I had my doubts about shipping them, specifically after the bathroom scene. But, Spuffy for me is about the journey. Their amazing journey together to become better people. And in order to get to that point, they had to go through some difficult situations. It makes what comes out of it (everything that we see in season 7) so much more interesting, beautiful, and real IMO. I never experienced those kinds of feelings with Bangel (especially after season 3), so for me, it's a no-brainer. It'll always be Spuffy! 🙂

When I first watched Btvs I thought Bangel was lame. My main issue was, and still is, that Angel doesn’t seem to believe in Buffy’s full capability – in some ways he wants to protect her in ways that she doesn’t need to be protected in, which makes me think that he isn’t treating her like an equal. In other cases they really are equals though – IMO opinion he really admire and respect her the way she admires and respects him. I didn’t really think about this my first watch, but doing my second now and after watching Ats I have a newfound respect for Angel. But then, of course, it also is the matter of Cangel which I LOVE and always will love. That, clearly, isn’t going to work out though for obvious reasons (You’re welcome 🙁), but I’m not sure I see Bangel being a longterm "forever" thing either. Or…. Maybe I do. I'm not sure yet.

I never thought Bangel was lame...until season 3. I don't like the people they become when they are together. Bangel alone changed my opinion about them. It had nothing to do with my love for Spuffy, which was non-existent until season 5/early season 6. I don't see the "forever love" thing with Bangel. "Chosen" made that clear for me, when Buffy said she didn't really see herself in a relationship with anyone (despite cuddling with Spike later on, lol).

Interesting post! I agree about Spike loving Buffy regardless if she loves him, and that's why I like Spuffy. However, sometimes I feel it can borderline on creepy obession, do you agree? I don't agree about Angel loving anyone though, I think Buffy was really special for him.

There is no doubt Spike had an obsession with Buffy in season 5. Of course it's a bit creepy at times. Maybe not as creepy as say when someone watches you sleep, but it's still a little creepy. However, that's Spike. When he falls in love, he gets obsessed. He's love's bitch. He obsessed over Cecily and Dru when he fell in love with them. So, it makes perfect sense to me that he would obsess over Buffy as well. And that obsession led to "Intervention." Spike learning what real love is all about. Without that obsession, that last scene wouldn't have meant as much. I wouldn't have wanted it any other way. 🙂

For me, Spike's obsession pre-Intervention is somewhat similar to the Phantom's obsession with Christine in "The Phantom of the Opera." There's hints of that gothic romance, which I absolutely love.

 

[randiann]

more like Angel being manipulated by someone who he BELIEVES TO BE an extremely reliable source. Buffy still dies and she does it in the act of protecting another human, her sister, Dawn. Granted, Angel didn't know that at the time, but it never ceases to amaze me that he never lost faith in the Powers after that. He threw away the chance to have a year of more or less normal life with the woman who he loved, to perhaps even have a child for her, only to see her die anyway

And this exemplifies why I love Bangel. Spuffy is selfish; spike would never sacrifice his own pleasure for someone else. He thinks with one person in mind: spike. Some may argue that what he did in chosen was selfless; I don't think it was. It was spike doing what he wanted to do. Save the world to impress the girl he loves. He wanted to be seen as a hero in her eyes, and as he's not the one most concerned with self preservation, he did this without regard to himself. Heroic; yes. But it was done with himself in mind.

Angel on the other hand is willing to sacrifice everything he loves for another. He literally gives up his dream to give buffy the chance at life that he knows she wouldn't have if he stayed human. He is concerned with her well being, and would literally die not to impress her, but to protect her. Bangel may be the quintessential tragic romance that we've seen before, but it is the story of true love and selfless love. The fact that these two people can love each other so completely is what attracts me to this ship. Yes it's tragic and dramatic and heart wrenching, but it is love in every essence of the word. And its love reciprocated by both parties. Spuffy lacks that. To me, spuffy is obsession, then lust, then unsteady friendship. It lacks the purity of bangel.


/ramble over.

 

[white avenger]

More like Angel being manipulated by someone who he BELIEVES TO BE an extremely reliable source. Buffy still dies, and she does it in the act of protecting another human, her sister, Dawn.

Comments on this post
Kean agrees: He couldn't have possibly have known any of that. And that's before we even consider that death was Buffy's gift. She was going to die. Human Angel or not.


Certainly, he didn't know AT THAT TIME, but how could Angel be so dense as to not figure it out after the fact? Why does he still trust and work for the Powers, and when will he EVER learn that trying to make decisions affecting the lives of others is most certainly neither his right nor his strong suit. Every time he does it, it comes back to bite him in the ass, from "I Will Remember You" through Season 5 of his own show,and Season 8, and probably on into Season 9. Angel simply does not have the right or the judgment to manipulate the lives and fates of others.

 

[Kean]

Comments on this post
Kean agrees: He couldn't have possibly have known any of that. And that's before we even consider that death was Buffy's gift. She was going to die. Human Angel or not.


Certainly, he didn't know AT THAT TIME, but how could Angel be so dense as to not figure it out after the fact? Why does he still trust and work for the Powers, and when will he EVER learn that trying to make decisions affecting the lives of others is most certainly neither his right nor his strong suit. Every time he does it, it comes back to bite him in the ass, from "I Will Remember You" through Season 5 of his own show,and Season 8, and probably on into Season 9. Angel simply does not have the right or the judgment to manipulate the lives and fates of others.

Here's a crazy thought: what if he's right? What if all this horrible stuff fallout that he has unloaded on him when he trusts the Powers is exactly what was supposed to happen. Or even what needs to happen.

As for making calls for others, Angel gets burned every time. And when he does make this decisions, he does it with the best interest of others in mind. Not his best interests.

You could make the same argument about Buffy deciding to empower all potential slayers. A pure action but poorly thought out and having chaotic consequences.

 

[white avenger]

As for making calls for others, Angel gets burned every time. And when he does make this decisions, he does it with the best interest of others in mind. Not his best interests.

And good intentions are what the road to hell is paved with. Ironic, and somewhat fitting that he finally managed to wind up there in "After The Fall." And, in typical Angel fashion, he managed to take the entire population of Los Angeles with him. All with the best intentions, of course.

And I see that I've led us completely away from the subject of this thread (with only the best of intentions, of course) Honestly, I really DO try not to do that.

 

[zobothehobo]

Lately when I’ve been rewatching the series (my first time, I only ever finished Btvs april or may last year) I can’t help to think that maybe Spuffy is TO harmful. I catch myself feeling really uncomfortable with season 6 and wish they would leave each other alone. I kind of feel that there comes a point when unhappy love can’t be romanticesed anymore, and that Spuffy might have crossed it.

I can definitely see your point here about Spuffy. I understand why season 6 would make some people uncomfortable, thought it doesn't me. I guess I'm able to overlook the harmfulness of Spuffy because it's harmful to both characters, but in the end proves to be very helpful and useful to both characters in their development. Spuffy provides an escape for Buffy in season 6, which is what she needed for a little. She needed something to help her overcome her feelings of depression and I honestly believe (and I'm sure people are going to say I'm insane, and that's fine) that being with Spike and not being her... taking out the hate she has for herself on him... everything.. made it easier for her to deal with stuff in little chunks. She also cut it off as soon as she didn't need him anymore... when it crossed the line of her needing him to escape and deal with everything slowly to her losing herself in him. And Spike won his soul. The first and only vampire in the Buffyverse to ever do so.

I think I love Spuffy so much though, to be honest, because I'm just like them. I am Spike... in nearly every way... And I'm also Buffy in seasons 6-7 and the later part of season 5. Combine those, and that's me. I'm a lot more Spike than I am Buffy and to be honest, after my first three watches, I was only a Spuffy shipper because Spike wanted it and so I wanted it for him. Some people thing the world, others feel it. Spike and I feel the world. So it was easy for me to understand and accept his crazy outlandish behavior.

 

[Taake]

This Year's Girl:
I kind of feel that there comes a point when unhappy love can't be romanticesed anymore, and that Spuffy might have crossed it

.

This is pretty much my problem with Spuffy. They crossed too many lines. A few years ago I really didn't mind Spuffy at all, heck I even really liked the ship (granted not more than Bangel but even so) I was a big fan.

But now, looking at the whole scope of their romance in the end of it all - for me - it is more harmful than it is helpful and (and I can't stress this enough) truly disturbing in many parts. I get uncomfortable watching their scenes together because to me the whole relationship is not only damaging to the two of them but portrays this horrible ideal that I would never want any young girl to look at and think - ''hey that's what I want. These things are okay.'' (I can hardly watch Spike scenes anymore truth be told and was quite stunned to find a friend of mine had come to these more or less exact conclusions as well)

And that's the deal breaker for me. I've been part of Spuffy like relationships and... yeah just no. I can't support something like that. Not even in fiction.

 

[KellGreen]

I don't think one is absolutely better than the other & preference is really about the watcher. Bangel and Spuffy are two different "languages" of love, apples and oranges, so to speak.

I think Angel was what Buffy needed as the young, "green" child she was when they met. Their love was the sweet, trusting first love, that always reminds you of the young person you were at the time. It's safe and saccharine (well, until one you loses their soul, anyway). There was no question of trust being an issue. AT FIRST. Then things went bad. It was the tragic aspect of their relationship that brought their relationship to the level of great, tragic, star-crossed lovers. Angel left because he felt he could not be what she needed.

AND THEN CAME SPIKE...
I can't help but keep in mind what Buffy says to Willow in the beginning of "Something Blue" about feeling like passion is needed in love, along with pain. Spike is the embodiment of passion and intensity. He doesn't love with innocence, all sweetly and such - he loves with every bit of himself, holding nothing back. He will give any and everything for love, except up. He isn't like Angel, and does not accept whatever hand fate has given him. He is a fighter and knows that there's always a chance. After he gets his soul, however, his love evolves to a deeper level. Spike's love for Buffy is, I believe, as he states: FOR HER. Real, deep unconditional love has little to do with the one giving it. He loves who she is, not what he gets from her ('cause, really, what DOES he GET FROM her?).

The differences in the relationships are more about the differences in those involved. Angel (souled) is stoic and broody and apologetic; Spike (with or without a soul) is intense and passionate and well aware that he is "love's b." Beyond that, he is maleable, and becomes whatever Buffy needs him to be: ally, punching bag, scapegoat, lover, protector, source of strength/encouragement, reality check, etc.

P.S: yes, I dismiss the AR as a plot device/catalyst for getting his soul/completely out of character for both involved (seriously, even at his worst, when have we ever seen him sexually violent? and since when does anyone overpower Buffy like that?), though if I don't dismiss it, his disgust at himself right afterwards is SO AMAZING when we contrast it with all of the times soul-less Angel felt equally awful for causing Buffy pain...oh, wait, that never happened...

---------- Post added at 11:12 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:09 AM ----------

.

This is pretty much my problem with Spuffy. They crossed too many lines. A few years ago I really didn't mind Spuffy at all, heck I even really liked the ship (granted not more than Bangel but even so) I was a big fan.

But now, looking at the whole scope of their romance in the end of it all - for me - it is more harmful than it is helpful and (and I can't stress this enough) truly disturbing in many parts. I get uncomfortable watching their scenes together because to me the whole relationship is not only damaging to the two of them but portrays this horrible ideal that I would never want any young girl to look at and think - ''hey that's what I want. These things are okay.'' (I can hardly watch Spike scenes anymore truth be told and was quite stunned to find a friend of mine had come to these more or less exact conclusions as well)

And that's the deal breaker for me. I've been part of Spuffy like relationships and... yeah just no. I can't support something like that. Not even in fiction.

yes, and Bangel's statutory does likewise for me...16/17 yr old girls should left alone by grown men, IMO.