Help a girl out - why Spuffy? Why Bangel? I have both love and doubts! :)

[brinkster130]

I When I watch BTVS for the first time I was rooting for Buffy and Angel. They were my favorite thing about the show and I wanted more than anything for the two of them to be happy together. When they were happy, I was happy; when they were sad, I was sad…I never once felt that strongly about Buffy and Spike. To this day, Bangel still draws out those strong feelings while Spuffy doesn’t. I enjoyed them as a couple and even found them interesting at times but I never once found myself rooting for them. I’ve always had the feeling that if Spike left for good that Buffy would be just fine….like she wouldn’t be missing anything.

Buffy and Angel are timeless. They will always love each other. They’re each other’s true happiness. They complement one another perfectly. End of Story. (Well for me at least 😛 )


Oh and where is the Briley love?
Come on, Riley is great! Caring, loyal, trusting, good looking, attentive, romantic...he was like the perfect boyfriend. 😀

 

[Carrrrgh]

Oh and where is the Briley love?
Come on, Riley is great! Caring, loyal, trusting, good looking, attentive, romantic...he was like the perfect boyfriend. 😀

Briley 🙂 oh how I love Briley. He was so the perfect boyfriend I want to clone him and put him in my room forever lol.

On topic though, Im thinking i can consider myself a multiple shipper. When I'm watching seasons 1-3 I ship Bangel hardcore but also get depressed cause I know the break up is coming. Seasons 4-5 I shipped Briley hardcore and cried when Riley left, he was so perfect. Seasons 5-7 I shipped Spuffy hardcore lol and it makes me happy that they make each other so happy in S7 and have no intentions of breaking off their cuddle sessions and intend on furthering the relationship. That's why I think I like Spike the best, he's just all about Buffy, can't get enough of her and would do anything to ensure that she and he are both happy together.

In saying that though, I'm not exclusively a Spuffy or a Bangel. I ship both (well all three) and see no problem in doing so. So why pick just one? Be a multi-shipper like me 🙂

 

[Taaroko]

More like Angel being manipulated by someone who he BELIEVES TO BE an extremely reliable source. Buffy still dies, and she does it in the act of protecting another human, her sister, Dawn. Granted, Angel didn't know that at the time, but it never ceases to amaze me that he never lost faith in the Powers after that. He threw away the chance to have a year of more or less normal life with the woman who he loved, to perhaps even have a child for her, only to see her die anyway.

It isn't manipulation if you're being told the truth. All canonical evidence points to the Oracles being legit. Just because Buffy died in "The Gift" doesn't mean that's when she would have died if the IWRY timeline had continued. She could very easily have died sooner. It could have been anywhere between the second day after Angel turned human and the day before Glory's ritual, and for any number of reasons. And her dying earlier than "The Gift" likely would have led to even worse problems, such as Sunnydale being left unprotected from Adam and/or Glory having a much clearer shot at Dawn.

All Angel knew was that remaining human would shorten the time Buffy had left. Even if the Oracles weren't legit (though, again, there's no evidence to support that), the mere possibility that what they said was true was enough. He wasn't going to gamble her life for his happiness, period.

 

[Taake]

yes, and Bangel's statutory does likewise for me...16/17 yr old girls should left alone by grown men, IMO.

Obviously we all see this differently but this line is so tired to me.
And also, is it so much better when she's 20? Spike still has got more and a few decades on her and would certainly qualify as a 'grown man' as well... not to mention s2 Spike (in the words of Spuffies themselves) being attracted to Buff from the get go... age is just a number and all guilty parties in these pairings certainly seem to agree.

 

[This Year's Girl]

And this exemplifies why I love Bangel. Spuffy is selfish; spike would never sacrifice his own pleasure for someone else. He thinks with one person in mind: spike. Some may argue that what he did in chosen was selfless; I don't think it was. It was spike doing what he wanted to do. Save the world to impress the girl he loves. He wanted to be seen as a hero in her eyes, and as he's not the one most concerned with self preservation, he did this without regard to himself. Heroic; yes. But it was done with himself in mind.

I wouldn't say Spike's love was selfless, I don't think love ever is - you always get something out from it, even if it's unanswered. However, I don't think what Spike did in Chosen was for him. Him going out with a bang really embodied what I've always loved about Spuffy: that it was a kind of love that was bigger than just one person, even bigger than the person you love.

 

[StarSlayer]

. But now, looking at the whole scope of their romance in the end of it all - for me - it is more harmful than it is helpful and (and I can't stress this enough) truly disturbing in many parts. I get uncomfortable watching their scenes together because to me the whole relationship is not only damaging to the two of them but portrays this horrible ideal that I would never want any young girl to look at and think - ''hey that's what I want. These things are okay.'' (I can hardly watch Spike scenes anymore truth be told and was quite stunned to find a friend of mine had come to these more or less exact conclusions as well)

As a Spuffy, I certainly don't want any young girl to say that when they see Buffy and Spike's relationship, specifically at certain parts in season 6. Hell no! But, for me, their story doesn't end there. I see a lot of good in their relationship, and a big chunk of that is in season 7.

 

[This Year's Girl]

I can definitely see your point here about Spuffy. I understand why season 6 would make some people uncomfortable, thought it doesn't me. I guess I'm able to overlook the harmfulness of Spuffy because it's harmful to both characters, but in the end proves to be very helpful and useful to both characters in their development. Spuffy provides an escape for Buffy in season 6, which is what she needed for a little. She needed something to help her overcome her feelings of depression and I honestly believe (and I'm sure people are going to say I'm insane, and that's fine) that being with Spike and not being her... taking out the hate she has for herself on him... everything.. made it easier for her to deal with stuff in little chunks. She also cut it off as soon as she didn't need him anymore... when it crossed the line of her needing him to escape and deal with everything slowly to her losing herself in him. And Spike won his soul. The first and only vampire in the Buffyverse to ever do so.

I think I love Spuffy so much though, to be honest, because I'm just like them. I am Spike... in nearly every way... And I'm also Buffy in seasons 6-7 and the later part of season 5. Combine those, and that's me. I'm a lot more Spike than I am Buffy and to be honest, after my first three watches, I was only a Spuffy shipper because Spike wanted it and so I wanted it for him. Some people thing the world, others feel it. Spike and I feel the world. So it was easy for me to understand and accept his crazy outlandish behavior.

This is such a nice post, Zoà«, probably the best I've read of yours. Really honest and humble. I think that's a big part of the reason why I love Spuffy too, because Spike's way of loving is really close to my own at times. It's kind of like this for me:

I can't love just a little. If he writes "yours" before his name I'm freaking euforic. Give me a carrot and I'll take your whole garden. Or try to take, but a garden is often stuck, and I end up looking really foolish standing there pulling on roots all beside myself. And then it's like I catch myself seeing he's standing there on the porch and watching me with a strained smile. And I wish I could be cool, someone who may or may not show up at his door, someone who may or may not smile. But there's nothing exciting about me, I don't have peace enough to NOT call, NOT write, NOT show up, it hurts my body if I stand back, bide my time. It hurts my mouth if I can't yell NOW that I love someone. Or, like this: I'm really someone that rolls out the red carpet and throws confetti when he meets me. I'm really someone that rents a small marching band to play outside his window. I'm really a girl with a rose in her mouth, a gerbera in her hair and a whole boquet behind her back. I'm really nothing less than anyone else. That's only what I think. That's only what I sometimes claim to seem less loving. 'Cause if you love you loose and if you loose you may never rise again (not even after 10 solid breaths) and if you don't get up you get very down and if you're very down you can never walk beside anyone, you can't be loved. It takes a lot of belief in your own height, you're own depth to really be loved. It takes flight and freedom to not get stuck. It takes guns and backs to feel safe. It takes a whole bunch of heartbreaks to be able to say: I don't care if you leave me. Or: I want you but if you leave I'll have myself. It takes a want to someones garden, to someoneelses roots and dirt and all kind of flowers. That you're able to pick, take home, put in vases, put in salad. It takes that you're able. That you're allowed. That you're brave enough to walk in and say: Here I am.

And maybe you got some of that. Maybe you didn't. It's late. 🙂

---------- Post added at 10:55 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:53 PM ----------

.

This is pretty much my problem with Spuffy. They crossed too many lines. A few years ago I really didn't mind Spuffy at all, heck I even really liked the ship (granted not more than Bangel but even so) I was a big fan.

But now, looking at the whole scope of their romance in the end of it all - for me - it is more harmful than it is helpful and (and I can't stress this enough) truly disturbing in many parts. I get uncomfortable watching their scenes together because to me the whole relationship is not only damaging to the two of them but portrays this horrible ideal that I would never want any young girl to look at and think - ''hey that's what I want. These things are okay.'' (I can hardly watch Spike scenes anymore truth be told and was quite stunned to find a friend of mine had come to these more or less exact conclusions as well)

And that's the deal breaker for me. I've been part of Spuffy like relationships and... yeah just no. I can't support something like that. Not even in fiction.

Really great post T! This is how I've been feeling too. Thanks for your great input!

 

[KellGreen]

Obviously we all see this differently but this line is so tired to me.
And also, is it so much better when she's 20? Spike still has got more and a few decades on her and would certainly qualify as a 'grown man' as well... not to mention s2 Spike (in the words of Spuffies themselves) being attracted to Buff from the get go... age is just a number and all guilty parties in these pairings certainly seem to agree.

There's so much more life experience between the relationships. I'm just saying that Spuffy was no worse for her than Bangel. She went into Bangel naive and went into Spangel with her eyes wide open IMO.

As it is written, Angel was what she needed then, Riley was what she needed at that time (even though he was way too boring for taste) and Spike what she needed then. Buffy at 20 was not the same as she was at 16. Though, I guess it really doesn't matter, since she can't be with Angel anyway.

 

[prophecygrrl]

I know what you mean about the shipping stuff! I am a Spuffy and Cangel. OTPs forever, amen, done. I love them, end of story. 😀 But lately I've been liking Bangel a bit more than I used to. I can't say that I actually ship Bangel or Briley, (I could never ship them in the long-run) but there's certain parts of both that I like.

I am a Buffy-centric Spuffy shipper. (say that five times fast!) I'm basically a Buffy-centric fan, really, but when it comes to shipping especially, I am All About Buffy. I love Spuffy because I think Spike challenges Buffy in a way that the other characters don't. As a fighter, a lover, a leader, etc. I think in the end, he just helps her deal with all the crap the universe throws at her. I love that even though he calls her out on her BS, he's basically her biggest cheerleader, and at the same time she inspires him to become a better person.

Now, there are definitely parts of Season 6 that make me very uncomfortable and after 'Seeing Red' I didn't know if I could ship them anymore. The first time I watched Season 6, I was so heavily invested in all the characters that I couldn't help feeling incredibly upset. Do you know what I mean? Watching your favorite heroine struggling under another character you love? It was awful. But the way I see it, I can ship them later on because Buffy and Spike do not remain the same people they were in Season 6. In Spike's case, he literally changes his being, and Buffy figuratively comes back to life again. In Season 7, it's no longer just about the lust and need anymore, and I see them as partners in Season 7 and after that. I really love that aspect of their relationship. I ship Spuffy mostly because I really think a mature Spike and Buffy could work out. I can't ship them as they are in Season 5 or 6, but looking at their whole character arcs? Yep. Totally. 😀

Spike is one of my favorite characters, but I do have reservations about his love pre-soul. The way he frames his life around strong women is a pretty clear pattern to me, but as much as it's loving (at least in the way Spike thinks of it), there's a level of objectification there too that just isn't healthy. The important thing to me is that he changes this, and becoming his own person (becoming a champion and fighting his own missions, I mean) is just as healthy for him as it is for the woman he loves, in this case Buffy. Again, to me, that objectification and lust isn't there anymore after Season 6. Spike pretty much says it all in his speech in 'Touched', that even though he loves Buffy and he believes in her, he isn't looking for anything from her. That's the most important change for me, that he's no longer demanding to be loved back. Buffy's free to realize her feelings on her own.

 

[Icarium]

It's just too easy and predictable. Bangel is a cliche' in the most classic sense, and I don't like cliche's. Spuffy is the love story with the plot twist, the mortal enemies who become lovers

Which is also very much a cliche. And Spike doing everything for the woman he loves is for me cheap wish-fulfilment that turned him into a character more one-dimensional than even Anya. Angel had the problem too, albeit in a not so severe form as Spike. He only got real depth after he moved to LA. At least Riley actually had a life of his own. The second they made him all about Buffy too in the beginning of S5 he was doomed to character assassination.

 

[KellGreen]

Which is also very much a cliche. And Spike doing everything for the woman he loves is for me cheap wish-fulfilment that turned him into a character more one-dimensional than even Anya. Angel had the problem too, albeit in a not so severe form as Spike. He only got real depth after he moved to LA. At least Riley actually had a life of his own. The second they made him all about Buffy too in the beginning of S5 he was doomed to character assassination.

yeah, you're right. I guess I'm not so much Spuffy as I am just Spike, and some of the things they changed about him/had him do were ridiculously annoying. So, I change my mind...Angel can have Buffy (and I'll take Spike🙂 )

 

[Kean]

Spuffies, can I just ask, because several of you have mentioned or alluded to it in this thread, are you more Spike + Whoever He Wants, than Spike + Buffy shippers?

If Spike loved someone else, would you ship them as much? Basically what I am asking is whether you are actually enamoured with the ship or dedicated to Spike?

 

[KellGreen]

Spuffies, can I just ask, because several of you have mentioned or alluded to it in this thread, are you more Spike + Whoever He Wants, than Spike + Buffy shippers?

If Spike loved someone else, would you ship them as much? Basically what I am asking is whether you are actually enamoured with the ship or dedicated to Spike?

I admit, yes I am more dedicated to Spike. Although the journey their relationship went through is great to me also. In the end, what I am most drawn to is everything Spike is willing to go through be "what she deserves." His sacrifices and torture (of both the physical and mental) he goes through for her is what gets me the most.

 

[prophecygrrl]

Spuffies, can I just ask, because several of you have mentioned or alluded to it in this thread, are you more Spike + Whoever He Wants, than Spike + Buffy shippers?

If Spike loved someone else, would you ship them as much? Basically what I am asking is whether you are actually enamoured with the ship or dedicated to Spike?

I love the ship on both sides. I'm much more interested in Buffy than Spike, but I ship Spuffy for Spuffy, not just for one character. I don't just ship Buffy/whomever she wants either though. I just ship her with Spike. And a little bit with Faith, but that's a Season 3 personal canon and a whole nother story. 😛

 

[zobothehobo]

Spuffies, can I just ask, because several of you have mentioned or alluded to it in this thread, are you more Spike + Whoever He Wants, than Spike + Buffy shippers?

If Spike loved someone else, would you ship them as much? Basically what I am asking is whether you are actually enamoured with the ship or dedicated to Spike?

For me, being so Spike-centric, yes. I love Spike and Buffy and I've grown to see how they're right for each other. They fit with each other beautiful and I've grown to see that.. but I only started to, I only tried, because Spike wanted it. Most people are going to think I'm nuts here... but when I first watched season 6, I honestly didn't see ANY shred of evidence of how he had manipulated her or he had been so terrible to her. I was hesitant to say I shipped Spuffy because she treated him so horribly in seasons 5 and 6. I saw the heart that lies within my Spikey and I wanted her to see it to. I wanted her in Crush to be overwhelmed by the sheer adorableness of that date and be with him. I wanted her to see the Spike I saw...

With each watch, it was easier and easier for me to accept Spuffy because of the way I saw that Buffy's terrible treatment to Spike lead him to become the man he was at the end of the show. To become the first and only vampire in the Buffyverse to seek out and win back his soul. To become a champion. And likewise, the horrible treatment helped Buffy become who she was at the end of the show. A fearless strong leader.

It was only recently that I saw Spike's horrible treatment to Buffy in season 6. But with seeing that... even if just a little... I can fully embrace Spuffy. In the end, both characters grew from all of the pain they caused each other (and I think it's important to point out that they cause each other pain, not one caused the other pain)and ended up what the other needed/needs. With Spike, Buffy was able to balance her slaying and her leader duties with her slaying and love. That's something she was having difficulties with the entire show. He was able to support her emotionally at the same time as he was standing beside her as a leader. And she was able to help him believe in himself after he got his soul. Both of them will still call each other out when they're wrong, which is important... but they're loyal to each other and in battle and in life, they stand beside each other.

I hate relationships with one person standing in front of the other. The whole "I will protect you 'till the end" thing is so irritating to me. I don't want someone to stand in front of me and protect me and I don't want someone I need to stand in front of and protect. I want someone to stand beside me and live life with me. That's what Spuffy does. And I love it.

Now if canonically Spike had fallen this hard in love with someone else, I'd ship them. I started with Spike's love and feeling that and not knowing why and I ended up feeling them and how they're right for each other. I would probably do that again.

 

[EvilBuffy]

Spuffies, can I just ask, because several of you have mentioned or alluded to it in this thread, are you more Spike + Whoever He Wants, than Spike + Buffy shippers?

If Spike loved someone else, would you ship them as much? Basically what I am asking is whether you are actually enamoured with the ship or dedicated to Spike?

I wouldn't ship Spike with anyone other than Buffy because I just don't see it. So I would fall in 'enamoured with the ship' category.

 

[Doppelgang]

I became a spuffy shipper primarily because I identified with the way Spike struggled with his feelings for Buffy in season 5, Crush is probably one of my favourite episodes of this storyline and also Fool for Love. In season 6 I probably shipped Xanya more than any other couple, because of OMWF, Hells Bells etc, although on rewatches I've seen alot of Spuffy moments that preempt season 7 with Spike developing more mature feelings for Buffy, such as their moment in Hells Bells. I'm not as passionate in my shipping of Spuffy in season 7, as I also like seeing the way Xanya develops in this season, but it is still good to see Spuffy develop the way that it does.

I think Bangel peaked in season 2 and 3, but I didn't ship Bangel I just liked to see how the storyline developed. I enjoyed the development of Angel's character much more in ATS. I can see why people would ship Bangel due to episodes like Becoming and Lovers Walk, The Prom, as they did have a very close, genuine relationship, and just because Spuffy came later doesn't give it precedence, though for me I prefer it as I can identify more with Spike's character development in BTVS than I can with Angel's. So it is for me more a matter of which characters I have identified with whilst watching it, rather than thinking one ship or relationship is in itself better, or more genuine than the others.

 

[white avenger]

Spuffies, can I just ask, because several of you have mentioned or alluded to it in this thread, are you more Spike + Whoever He Wants, than Spike + Buffy shippers?

If Spike loved someone else, would you ship them as much? Basically what I am asking is whether you are actually enamored with the ship or dedicated to Spike?

I think that if anyone in the entire Buffyverse deserves happiness, has actually worked for, sacrificed for, and suffered for, true love and happiness, it is Spike. If he loved someone else then I would support the relationship.

And, out of curiosity, I would ask Miss K the same question about Angel. If it turned out that he actually loved Cordy, Nina, or some other character, would you support that relationship with the same determination and loyalty that you now give to Bangel?

 

[randiann]

And, out of curiosity, I would ask Miss K the same question about Angel. If it turned out that he actually loved Cordy, Nina, or some other character, would you support that relationship with the same determination

No way. Bangel is wary worse than spuffy. Although if lindsay and angel were to fall in love.... I'm definitely on that ship!

 

[Kean]

And, out of curiosity, I would ask Miss K the same question about Angel. If it turned out that he actually loved Cordy, Nina, or some other character, would you support that relationship with the same determination and loyalty that you now give to Bangel?

No, I can't imagine I would support any other ship of Buffy's or Angel's the way I do their relationship. I mean, I love Riley, Cordy shares top billing as my favourite character with Buffy and Angel, I like Nina and I genuinely rooted for Buffy and Satsu in S8. So I don't believe I have an issue with Buffy and Angel being with other people at all. My opinion on Spuffy is very specific and not just born out of Spike not being Angel. I am actually pretty fine with Buffy and Angel being with other people. If either of them moved on and genuinely appeared to care for, love more and were happier with another than they were with each other than I think I would be happy that they were happy. However, to my estimation that has not happened. Buffy and Angel are still each other's definition of joy in my eyes. And while that remains the case, I will ship them like burning!

I suppose in a way I am the same as you. I want the absolute best for both of them. And for me, the story has shown that to be each other. If it ever tells me something differently, come back ask me again 😉

EDIT

Just to add to this, my shipping of B/A is almost separate to my fanning of Angel, or Buffy. One of my favourite things about their relationship is that they are willing to give each other up because it is the right thing to do. So, that kinda tells you where I stand.

I won't just ship Angel with anyone, nor will I ship Buffy with anyone just because they want/are with them. I have to believe in it.