High School is Hell, did Buffy lose its identity after Season 3 ?

[AlphaFoxtrot]

The term is recurring guest star. Or at least, I don't think SAG attaches any special significance to it.

I think the best comparison is Spider-Man. Dwayne MacDuffie once claimed his impetus for Static Shock was the Peter Parker he enjoyed in the 70s and 80s was now a man in his late thirties living with a supermodel in the upper west side, and he didn't believe the character to be relatable, so he created his own character, who tried to capture the teenage world. I think Buffy does work best in that world.

I think it can work for college. However, I think Season 4 was spread far too thin, way too much stuff was going on, and to also throw in a secret military facility, Faith, Adam, et al. I think they should have pulled back, and focused on college mysteries over army men.

 

[NotASlayer]

I think it can work for college. However, I think Season 4 was spread far too thin, way too much stuff was going on, and to also throw in a secret military facility, Faith, Adam, et al. I think they should have pulled back, and focused on college mysteries over army men.

Given how much in the Buffyverse revolves around secret knowledge and ancient texts, there was probably a ton of stuff they could have mined for a college setting. Yes, you could have gone the high-tech route as well, but really, possibly apart from Ted, that was a mistake for the series when it did that, because the tech was always ludicroustech.

 

[SavvyScoobie]

I actually don't think so. Recently I was watching this video about Buffy and how it holds up 30 years later, and the commentator seemed to enjoy the later seasons of Buffy. He said he related to the seasons because they were a realistic portrayal of adulthood.

I mean, what did we expect? The show is about a bunch of traumatized kids having to grow up fighting monsters and losing people to the supernatural. Not everything is going to be campy and teenage drama, etc. I notice a lot of people (myself included) tend to criticize the later seasons a lot. Its fair, do whatever you want, but maybe we just don't wanna admit that things never get easy. I hated season six, but maybe I didn't hate it because Buffy was depressed, but because it made too much sense.

I don't think Buffy lost its identity, I do think that Buffy lost its charm. Though in my opinion, it needed to happen.

 

[Anyanka Bunny Slayer]

Glory, well, given that she is Ben (shh!) and could revert to him at any time meant she was limited in what she could do.

Hang on....you're saying that Ben is Glory?!

 

[NotASlayer]

Hang on....you're saying that Ben is Glory?!

Wait, we need to talk about this. There's some kind of connection between Ben and Glory.

 

[Kendar]

"Whap!"

 

[SavvyScoobie]

Wait, we need to talk about this. There's some kind of connection between Ben and Glory.

Is everyone here very stoned?

 

[NotASlayer]

Is everyone here very stoned?

No, there is just something about Ben. And Glory.

Now, what were we talking about? 😀

 

[NoShip]

OK so the core message of Buffy was High School is hell and they used monsters as a metaphors of High school problems. 1 example is Angel/Angelus is literally the boy who does not call.
Now the problem is that ends with Season 3 and they do a Spin off about Adult issues and guys in there 20s in the city (realistically it was more 30s)

So did Buffy lose its identity after Season 3, it seems like the show never really adjusted after leaving school and then you have the spin off be about adulthood that leaves even less options ?
Joss has said he had a 5 year plan but 4 is known for great stand alones but a poor main arc and in Riley a character that was disliked.
Season 5 has a main arc though that has a lot of holes in it if you give it a moments thought and a villain introduced way to soon who quite literally sat around doing nothing for much of it.

I think it did to an extent. High School, at least in the US, is a universal rite of passage. Everybody does it.

College or University isn't. On top of that, everybody experiences college differently. So there is no more universality. Some people get the stories because they lived them. Others don't. The population becomes very splintered very quickly. And its hard to write to that. So most transitioning shows move thru college redicliously fast so they can get to the adventure or drama or romance or whatever the production team had decided the show will be.

S5 BTVS tried really hard to recapture High School BTVS without the High School. They did a good job. The Magic Box was a great meeting place. The storylines were decent to great. The overall arc was excellent (despite plot holes you could fly 747s thru). The characters settled into adulthood rather well. So, Transition Successful. Right?

Then came S6. S6's main problem was a new showrunner who decided to completely rewrite BTVS and a different way of breaking eps that clashed with everything the writers were used to. Essentially, she created a different show. Lots of viewers loved it. Lots more viewers hated it.

S7 was the attempt to "right the ship" and get BTVS back on track and it failed. Too many viewers left and never came back. Too few new viewers gave BTVS a chance. The Lead Actress was over the demands of the show and refused to extend her contract to S8.

So Buffy hobbled to the finish line and we got what we got.

 

[Btvs fan]

I think it did to an extent. High School, at least in the US, is a universal rite of passage. Everybody does it.

College or University isn't. On top of that, everybody experiences college differently. So there is no more universality. Some people get the stories because they lived them. Others don't. The population becomes very splintered very quickly. And its hard to write to that. So most transitioning shows move thru college redicliously fast so they can get to the adventure or drama or romance or whatever the production team had decided the show will be.

S5 BTVS tried really hard to recapture High School BTVS without the High School. They did a good job. The Magic Box was a great meeting place. The storylines were decent to great. The overall arc was excellent (despite plot holes you could fly 747s thru). The characters settled into adulthood rather well. So, Transition Successful. Right?

Then came S6. S6's main problem was a new showrunner who decided to completely rewrite BTVS and a different way of breaking eps that clashed with everything the writers were used to. Essentially, she created a different show. Lots of viewers loved it. Lots more viewers hated it.

S7 was the attempt to "right the ship" and get BTVS back on track and it failed. Too many viewers left and never came back. Too few new viewers gave BTVS a chance. The Lead Actress was over the demands of the show and refused to extend her contract to S8.

So Buffy hobbled to the finish line and we got what we got.

Marti wasn't the new show runner in S6. Joss was still in charge and went through the scripts and made changes like the Balcony scene in Dead Things. Yes Marti was on set more day to day but Joss was still in charge and the decision maker. I can think of 2 instances in this case where Marti was overruled 1 is Spuffy, Marti only wanted a 1 and done and that was it. It was Joss who wanted the sex in Gone and the Balcony sex (Steve Deknight said it wasn't even in the script and that Joss put it in.
Another more important is Dark Willow was meant to happen earlier in the season but because Alyson didn't want to go evil and was/is a known Joss Whedon favourite, he pushed it back.

I really recommend you listen to that Wild At Heart DVD . Joss is clearly the guy in charge on it and Marti is his dogsbody, she is not in charge

 

[Ethan Reigns]

Going back to the original question, most people don't stay in high school forever. Children continue to mature or at least with the change of circumstances that comes with university, their problems change. In "Living Conditions" we see the problems of living in a dorm that didn't exist in high school. It isn't that high school should be the only hellishly entertaining part of a person's life, this continues into university where new challenges occur. Your professors may not be as attentive as high school teachers were. You go from being at the peak of the high school social order to being a freshman again. No one asks to see your homework but you have to study on your own initiative anyway. It all costs money and you may have to take out a loan. These problems are different from high school problems but they can still be the source of drama for a television series.

BtVS didn't make use of all of these issues in university but they did concentrate on enough issues that university still continued to have hellish problems.

 

[hoponlilmama]

Marti wasn't the new show runner in S6. Joss was still in charge and went through the scripts and made changes like the Balcony scene in Dead Things. Yes Marti was on set more day to day but Joss was still in charge and the decision maker. I can think of 2 instances in this case where Marti was overruled 1 is Spuffy, Marti only wanted a 1 and done and that was it. It was Joss who wanted the sex in Gone and the Balcony sex (Steve Deknight said it wasn't even in the script and that Joss put it in.
Another more important is Dark Willow was meant to happen earlier in the season but because Alyson didn't want to go evil and was/is a known Joss Whedon favourite, he pushed it back.

I really recommend you listen to that Wild At Heart DVD . Joss is clearly the guy in charge on it and Marti is his dogsbody, she is not in charge

I think she was showrunner in s6, because his attentions were focused elsewhere on other projects. But JW still had final say over content? (the equivalent of still having your hand in the pie).

And wasn't Marti the one who had James as....unclothed as possible?

 

[Btvs fan]

I think she was showrunner in s6, because his attentions were focused elsewhere on other projects. But JW still had final say over content? (the equivalent of still having your hand in the pie).

And wasn't Marti the one who had James as....unclothed as possible?

Yep see above

She did though to be fair in S3 I noticed loads of near naked David Boreanaz and Shirtless Marc Blucas in S4 so he wasn't the only one on that score. It was the show exploiting good looking guys and they couldn't do the same with Sarah because of her no nudity clause

 

[hoponlilmama]

Yep see above

She did though to be fair in S3 I noticed loads of near naked David Boreanaz and Shirtless Marc Blucas in S4 so he wasn't the only one on that score. It was the show exploiting good looking guys and they couldn't do the same with Sarah because of her no nudity clause

The raunch and abundance of skin was very evident with James. Of course, that's down to the shift from the WB to UPN, which is why it's dialled up (as the lads from Spinal Tap say) to 11.

 

[Joan the Vampire Slayer]

Unlike many other "teen" dramas, I actually think Buffy did pretty well with transitioning from high school to beyond, despite some blunders, especially considering Joss hadn't planned the series to last beyond the fifth season.

However, I can see why some fans feel the show went "downhill" after the high school years. Still, a "bad" episode or season of Buffy is still infinitely better than most other shows.

 

[BuffyElevated]

I don't think Buffy lost itself... I think they did an amazing job of showing how life can be after high school and how different lives take different paths and how we deal with the things life throws at us.

 

[Btvs fan]

Unlike many other "teen" dramas, I actually think Buffy did pretty well with transitioning from high school to beyond, despite some blunders, especially considering Joss hadn't planned the series to last beyond the fifth season.

However, I can see why some fans feel the show went "downhill" after the high school years. Still, a "bad" episode or season of Buffy is still infinitely better than most other shows.

Im on my rewatch now and Im on S5 (Ill let you know how I feel about 6 and 7 when I get there)
I think 4 failed because of the Main arc failing but the stand alones and the first half of S4 were still great
5 so far is still enjoyable though Im not really a fan of the Joyce illness arc and Riley is really unsympathetic in his arc though I'm not sure thats what the writers were going for 🤔

 

[AlphaFoxtrot]

Well, the question has to be ... Did anyone watch "Felicity?" Time travel escapades aside, that show was written from the ground up with a college setting in mind. How deep did they go with the college experience? How many seasons did the premise carry before it just became "Friends, but in college?" Why didn't she feed the hounds? Seriously, what was up with time travel? How dare they name a character "Ben?"

I mean, there are like a thousand shows set in highschool and like a dozen set in college for a reason. Felicity ran for a full four years, presumably telling the story it wanted to. It ran on the same network during the same years. It is probably the gold standard for college series set between Gen X and Y. How did it do?

 

[NoShip]

I still cant say what the writers wanted with Riley in S5. I know WB was unhappy with the audience hate thrown his way, but, I dont remember anybody at WB demanding that Riley be written out.

Personally, I think that Riley's fate, like Spike's, was determined by the push to make BTVS the most renewable show possible going into the renewal negotiations. The audience loved Spike, so, he stayed. The audience disliked to hated Riley, so, he got moved on to Central America.

What I truly dont get is the rather assinine story that "justified"[?] Riley leaving.

 

[Btvs fan]

I still cant say what the writers wanted with Riley in S5. I know WB was unhappy with the audience hate thrown his way, but, I dont remember anybody at WB demanding that Riley be written out.

Personally, I think that Riley's fate, like Spike's, was determined by the push to make BTVS the most renewable show possible going into the renewal negotiations. The audience loved Spike, so, he stayed. The audience disliked to hated Riley, so, he got moved on to Central America.

What I truly dont get is the rather assinine story that "justified"[?] Riley leaving.

I think it was the network that forced it. It certainly wasn't the writers who all loved the Riley character. Most people read Xander speech about him being thr guy once in a life time as the writers lecturing the fans rather than Xander telling Buffy