Hitler, insane or gifted?

[JollyApe]

I know that this might be a ..delicate matter..no I don't really know what it is, but I know that a lot of people might get upset or disturbed by this, but I'd like to discuss it anyway (if the admins thinks it's against the BB's policy or something like that, just delete the thread).

I'd like to talk about Hitler. I just saw Triumph of the will and for those of you how don't know what that is, it is a very famous nazi propaganda "documentary" from 1934.

I can't seem to figure Hitler out (we talked some about him and Saddam in another thread about good and evil and now I want to talk some more) what was his deal? Was the man just extremely intelligent or was he plain insane? I mean looking at him when he held his speeches he looks completely insane at some times, but at others he seems to be so aware of what is happening around him that it's hard to accept that he would be insane. I would like a good and honest discussion here, what do you think about him?

 

[eset]

He grew up in a period when Germany was incredibly downtrodden and economically destroyed by WWI. He had fought bravely for a cause he believed in (he was a decorated war hero, after all) only to see everything he had risked his life for practically destroyed. Its not all that different from the rise of the Ku Klux Klan after the American Civil War. When people have lost everything, they'll turn to any action that they feel can give them back a sense of dignity in their own eyes as well as the world's. They'll blame anyone who's an easy target (jews, gypsies), just to keep from blaming themselves.

I personally find it very sad, both the way Germany was crushed after the first world war and the way so many people had to die before the rest of the world took notice.

 

[Frenchy Faith]

I hate to say it but Hitler was a genious, but insane in the same time.
And don't think I'm pro Hitler or anything like that, I talked enough to people who had got out from the concentration camp & I've saw so much things about the topic that I can only feel a big hatred for this man / beast.

But everyone say it, he was really clever, plus very attractive, not physically speaking but when he made his speeches.
eset is right, German people had suffered a lot from the consequences of the WW1. For sure, they hated us (French) because we took back some territories, then they were forbidden to have an army, and had such a big debt to pay to France. That was insane to ask them for so much since the country was devastated, & since we had took the part of their country that was the richer. They had no way to help that.
So when Hitler arrived, he was seen by German like a hero, really (as eset said he was already a hero for his attitude during WW1). & at first his talk was not so harsh... that's how he got so many people on his side.
He offered to give them back dignity in re-launching an army & getting their pride back. But the power get to his head & he started to want more & more. & still he managed to make huge crowd frantic & hysterical because he HAD something, he had a real charism.

The thing is that to get out of the crisis, Hitler needed to find a target. People who would be responsible for the bad situation of the country. And since jewish were often rich because they had strategic job (in banks & this is all cause of the religion, which allow jewish to make profit in bank & forbidden christians to do so -off topic). They were the perfect target.

Hitler started to blame the jewish for all that was going wrong in the country. But he did not tell what was really going on in the camps. Most Germans thought they were working camp & that's all. & it appeared fair to them that jewish had to pay & work for the country because they had (in German's opinion) made so many profit. & Hitler was the one convincing his people about it.
No one know what would have been the reaction in front of the truth. Of course some knew, but they were not numerous.

And to make all of this even stronger, Hitler had a sort of steel hand, i.e. he did not let time nor room for rebellion. He instaured so big a fear among people, & killed or imprisoned the one who tried to say something.
He controlled really everything.

So no doubt, he was gifted, with charism, with cleverness (because to make up such a thing you have to be bright, right?). But most of all, he was insane, not insane in the nut way, because he knew perfectly well what he was doing, but insane in the evil way. He had no qualms, no morale (odd thing knowing how he grew up... proves that an evil person can be brought up in a quite normal family). I was about to say he was machiavelic, but now knowing more about machiavely theory I'm not so sure... quite close I guess.

 

[eponinethen]

I wouldn't say Hitler was a genius, but he surtainly was very very intelligent and smart. And of course a good speacher. I don't think it's weird at all, at that time being a nazi or fascist wasn't unusual or wrong in the same way it is now. I hate to say this but I'm scared I would've been a nazi if I lived in Germany in the '30s and '40s (and earlier too of course). And, as you have said, after WW1, I understand how things became like they did.

But, about Hitler. I don't know that much about him as a person, except for him growing up in Austria, wanting to be an artist... Well ok I know stuff about his life and all, but I haven't really studied him as a person, since I don't believe he was that different from the people around him. Or, the difference wasn't his thoughts or ideas but how good he was, talented, smart, and yeah, he believed in what he said, that's probably the most important thing. Anyone who really believe that they are right, that their fight is the right and good one to fight, are dangerous in a way or another. He got lost in his battle, and that can happen to anyone, that can happen no matter what your thought was in the beginning, it can turn out wrong. Sure, to me nazism isn't a good idea, at all, of course, but Hitler wanted to make Germany a better place and what's wrong with that..? Yeah this is what I was talking about in the Good vs. Evil thread, I don't believe a person can be evil, I don't believe Hitler was evil since he thought he was doing the "right" thing. He was doing the right thing, from his POV. It's sad, but he wasn't alone, he wasn't the only one.

Sorry, I am no good at staying on topic but.. No I don't think Hitler was insane. I wouldn't be surprised if there was something "wrong" with him but I don't think that's necessary to become the way he was. I don't think he was exactly a genius either but.. more genius that insane.. really.

 

[elmo]

Most geniuses (sp) are crazy! Hitler knew how to make his people follow him and he had a plan to overthrow the earth - that plan almost worked I might add. He was insane in the plans that he had - and, to me at least, in his beliefs. But he was intelligent enough to get as far as he did and to carry out such a plan.

Note: By saying that Hitler was intelligent - I in no way condone any of his beliefs or actions. But I would like to say that people are entitled to their own beliefs and so was Hitler.

 

[Willow Rosenberg]

They always say there is a fine line between genius and insanity and I definitely think Hitler crossed over to the latter when he decided that genocide was "ok".

 

[eponinethen]

They always say there is a fine line between genius and insanity and I definitely think Hitler crossed over to the latter when he decided that genocide was "ok".

I can't say I disagree. But, when you really put yourself in his (and many other's at that time) position, it wasn't really genocide. Jews weren't human, there were nothing wrong what so ever in killing them. It wasn't even murder since they weren't human beings. They were less worth than animals, and most people have no problem with all killing animals, even eating them (which they didn't do with the jews). When you are into the race thinking, and don't have idea we do today about everyone being equals and all, you can't judge the same way. Of course what he did was wrong (IMO), but that's just how I see it, how we see it today, there was nothing unusual with cathegorising people into different races, at that time, although we today know there are no such think as races when it comes to human beings.. and if you do that, cathegorise, the step is not far from deciding which race is better. And is you decide that jews are not even on the list of human beings (cause they weren't), and really just a way for the Evil to destroy the world, what's so strange about killing them? Jews only existed to make everything hard for the good people, they were a disease, not human beings.
And yeah, you could say that believing in this makes Hitles insane, but that would make a lot of people insane, cause so many people believed in racism at that time. And I'm not saying thery weren't wrong, but come on, people believed the world was flat once.. how are we supposed to know what's really real and what's just theories..?

(God this is depressing.)

 

[Frenchy Faith]

I can't say I disagree. But, when you really put yourself in his (and many other's at that time) position, it wasn't really genocide. Jews weren't human, there were nothing wrong what so ever in killing them. It wasn't even murder since they weren't human beings. They were less worth than animals, and most people have no problem with all killing animals, even eating them (which they didn't do with the jews). When you are into the race thinking, and don't have idea we do today about everyone being equals and all, you can't judge the same way. Of course what he did was wrong (IMO), but that's just how I see it, how we see it today, there was nothing unusual with cathegorising people into different races, at that time, although we today know there are no such think as races when it comes to human beings.. and if you do that, cathegorise, the step is not far from deciding which race is better. And is you decide that jews are not even on the list of human beings (cause they weren't), and really just a way for the Evil to destroy the world, what's so strange about killing them? Jews only existed to make everything hard for the good people, they were a disease, not human beings.
And yeah, you could say that believing in this makes Hitles insane, but that would make a lot of people insane, cause so many people believed in racism at that time. And I'm not saying thery weren't wrong, but come on, people believed the world was flat once.. how are we supposed to know what's really real and what's just theories..?

(God this is depressing.)

Ok I know you might not want to sound so much like this but you sound WAY anti-Semite in your post. I mean, I don't think Jewish were seen as you said. That's precisely because they were seen as weatlhy HUMAN BEINGS that they were treated in such a way. In the camp, they turned into animals because of how they were treated there, but the whole process for Hitler was to turn them from the HUMANS they were into ANIMALS by giving them numbers & eradicating their names, shaving their hairs, treating them so harshly, preventing them to think.
Moreover, I repeat (as I'm convinced of it & heard many witness to tell me this) that most ppl were NOT aware of what was going on in the camps during the war. It was a big shock for everyone to discover the horror when Russians freed the first Lagers (camps).
It WAS definitly a genocide as when you have to deal with human beings, you have not the right to do everything you want. And furthermore, you have to respect every individual.
Now, if they considered not Jewish as human, then I think we might call them fools for not being able to recognize human race from other animals' race (as we know that ALL men are animals) would need some serious therapy.

Quote :
there was nothing unusual with cathegorising people into different races, at that time
Of course it was not like today, but what about the abolition of slavery? It definitely expresses the will to take a bit more into account the human race rather than doubting "races" based on skin's colors, religion and such.
I agree that there were still categories, but it did not give the right to do such a thing. Categories were between humans, not stating who were humans & who were not.

Ok I don't know if I reacted a bit too harshly but that's just such a serious topic that it sort of pissed me off. & it reminded me too that still today ppl think Concentration camps never existed & that it's all false (when you said it was no genocide) ... just can't believe ppl can think that way, with the tons of evidences that exist.
Out.

 

[eponinethen]

I said many times, in both my posts, that I of course think Hitler didn't do the right thing and that T to me this is absurd, but I do think it's very interesting how this could happen. Cause Hitler wasn't alone. He didn't force all those people to help him, they did because they thought he was doing the right thing (!), that's what's so horrible and (at least to me) interesting.

I mean, I don't think Jewish were seen as you said. That's precisely because they were seen as weatlhy HUMAN BEINGS that they were treated in such a way. In the camp, they turned into animals

It is no secret that anti-semitism was huge in the beginning of the 20th sentury. Thoughts and theories about human races were really popular and common. Yes, many jews were wealthier, true, but that's not how people saw them Many saw them as animals (or even less), many people thought they were worth nothing, otherwise more people would have complained, they wouldn't have accepted the fact that jews got less and less rights and finally were supposed to be killed. Do you know how the German people reacted to (don't know the English word but the Swedish word is "Kristallnatten", in November 1938, you probably know what night I'm talking about)..? They came out and applauded. When they saw thousends of jews being killed and tortured. And yeah, people did complain, afterwords. Do you know what they complained about? Not about the wasy the jews were treated, no they complained about what a lot of noice the Nazis had made, the people had had trouble sleeping cause of jews screaming and the sound of breaking glas. So don't tell me they were seen as human beings, just wealthier... Cause no one would have been able to look at that if they were thinking that jews were just like them, only wealthier...

Yeah, maybe they didn't know what was going on in the camps, but didn't they notice lots of jews disappearing..? To say that they didn't have a clue is just.. not true..

It WAS definitly a genocide as when you have to deal with human beings, you have not the right to do everything you want. And furthermore, you have to respect every individual.
Now, if they considered not Jewish as human, then I think we might call them fools for not being able to recognize human race from other animals' race (as we know that ALL men are animals) would need some serious therapy.

Whoa, Of Course it was genocide, I was just talking about how Hitler and the Nazis saw it.
Yeah and we know today that you can't devide humans into races... Of course they would need serious therapy...

About the races again. Sure, some things might have been better but nationalism and nazism and racism and fascism was not that unusual. It was in some ways accepted, which it isn't today. I mean Hitler was really popular (at least in the beginning).

Hehe, it's ok Frenchy, it pisses me off too, believe me...

 

[Frenchy Faith]

OK, I owe you apologies. I'm sorry, I know I tend to overreact on the topic, and I definitly misunderstood what you meant in mixing up the preterit tense & the present i.e what you think & what you told the nazis thought. I've been confronted many time to ppl who denied the horror Hitler had done, & eveything in the camp (ppl like that does exist) so I guess I got used to have too quick a reaction.
Still, I don't agree with everything you said, about how ppl saw jewish & all, but I guess we will never know what what in ppl's minds at that time.

Yeah, maybe they didn't know what was going on in the camps, but didn't they notice lots of jews disappearing..? To say that they didn't have a clue is just.. not true..

I don't think they didn't have a clue that wrong stuff were going on, I think they misbelieved what happened. They were told that jewish were put into working camp to pay back the money they had "stolen" the Germans. That was totally different, they didn't know about the systematic killing system Hitler had started. Of course some knew, but there were mainly the extremist ppl, not the masses.

& yeah I agree that Hitler was popular, & even when arriving at the end of his "reign" he was still famous for some. But the first thing in his program wasn't about jewish, it was about giving back their pride to Germans.You know that at first Hitler did not even want to kill them, he wanted to send them back to Israel. He was pro the creation of a place for jewishs, as long as it made sure they would leave Germany.
The jewishs invasion was exploited because ppl always need to find a target in crisis time, & since he needed workers, he used them. I guess it's in observing ppl hatred that he built up this "genocide", but even tho they hated them, I don't think there was a real will to kill all jewishs systematically. I think Hitler go way further than ppl really expected.

 

[eponinethen]

Appology accepted, thanks for re-reading and trying to understand what I really meant.


Of course all of them didn't know, and of course Hitler went way further than people had expected, I agree, I really do. Not at all saying they were all like Hitler, cause of course they weren't (and of course some people were thinking just like we do today). But the only thing I really tried to say was that it was very different then from today. Not many people minded the way the jews were treated (not talking about the camps but how they were treated in Germany), not many people objected. This would have been way harder to do today (not saying impossible though).

 

[elmo]

Not many people in Germany objected to the way to Jews were treated because they were scared of their dictator. It may not have been that they didn't mind only that they felt they had no choice but to follow him. They were afraid that they would be treated in the same way if they did not pretend to believe in Hitler's beliefs. I cannot begin to understand what was going on in that man's head but I do understand that to have that many people follow you - or afraid of you - you must be clever enough to know how the world works and how people's minds work.

 

[eponinethen]

But it wasn't like Hitler were the only one with those beliefs. There are many examples on people who objected, but to other things. Like the time when they objected about it cause of the noice and screamings. And there are also lots of examples about soldiers who were supposed to go in and kill jews (like in a ghetto or something), but said they didn't want to kill that many people, and they didn't have to (they weren't killed or anything). Or what about that demonstration where 6000 German women who were married to jews, wanted their husbands freed? What happened was that those men were freed, no one was punished cause of that. Or when the Nazis where trying to kill lots of mentaly ill people in Germany, and people protested and the plan was off. There have been lots of things about this, they have really looked into it and more and more people claim that the Germans were allowed to object, they knew at least some about what was going on, still very few did object. I'm not saying there weren't those who were punished cause they were against the Nazis, of course there were. I'm just saying how important it is to remember that Hitler wasn't alone. There were lots of people thinking just like him. And there were lots of people doing this cause they wanted to. It would never have worked like it did if most of the people who worked for Hitler and the Nazis didn't really want to do their job.