Edmund Blackadder
Scooby
He was magnificent and definitely 'Glorficus good' BUT I think he is one of the 'baddies' to see more as Angels enemy than an out and out villain.
He was magnificent and definitely 'Glorficus good' BUT I think he is one of the 'baddies' to see more as Angels enemy than an out and out villain.
But some things made no sense like how a normal well trained human with a sword can take out a dozen well trained guys with assault rifles and grenades...
white avenger
Good script writers?
E
Edmund Blackadder
I do agree with you BUT Holtz had to win. Imagine he was a Ninja - a Ninja could beat them:-)
Edmund Blackadder
Scooby
Well we never saw what actually happened, but the fact is many times we have seen single people fight against overwhelming odds and come out on top.
It isn't always about strength, its about what you do.
Veyron
Scooby
Holtz was a very, very, clever man.
He was no doubt a witch hunter in his time and if anyone knows anything about European witch hunters it's that they were some of the greediest people on the planet in their day - they'd often rob the spoils of their "witches" to fund their themselves, and I think that the watchers council was probably born out of the remnants of at least one group of witch hunters.
Either that or Wolfram and Hart initially started the council by giving them the resources (IE the books and stuff) to learn about demons, vamps, magick, etc etc before the council realised they were on the 'other' side and split from them (personal opinion here by the way, so please don't shoot me down if I'm wrong about it.)
I don't believe however that Holtz was that kind of witch hunter though, as it's been previously stated that he lived in a modest dwelling with his family, and family meant everything to the man. I agree with the statement that he was probably the best Big Bad in Angel - as he was Angel's own personal Big Bad and when he stated that his revenge would be total (or what-ever he said, I don't exactly recall the exact words) he was counting on Connor to be the instrument of that revenge by programming, if you take the metaphor, to be the instrument of that revenge. It's just a shame that he was unable to stop Connor from bonding with Angel and the crew; Connor's feelings toward them made the betrayal that should have been Holtz's revenge that much harder so the plan was changed to suit his (Holtz) purposes.
He did have to change his plans several times, again - this has been mentioned, but that's what the man was good at - manipulating others to do his bidding whilst keeping his hands relatively clean, although, as we know, he could mix it up with the best of them when he had to.
Holtz was the main man in his day, and even when brought forward two centuries, he still had the where-for-all to know how to do his job even though his surroundings had changed beyond his wildest imagination.
He was no doubt a witch hunter in his time and if anyone knows anything about European witch hunters it's that they were some of the greediest people on the planet in their day - they'd often rob the spoils of their "witches" to fund their themselves, and I think that the watchers council was probably born out of the remnants of at least one group of witch hunters.
Either that or Wolfram and Hart initially started the council by giving them the resources (IE the books and stuff) to learn about demons, vamps, magick, etc etc before the council realised they were on the 'other' side and split from them (personal opinion here by the way, so please don't shoot me down if I'm wrong about it.)
I don't believe however that Holtz was that kind of witch hunter though, as it's been previously stated that he lived in a modest dwelling with his family, and family meant everything to the man. I agree with the statement that he was probably the best Big Bad in Angel - as he was Angel's own personal Big Bad and when he stated that his revenge would be total (or what-ever he said, I don't exactly recall the exact words) he was counting on Connor to be the instrument of that revenge by programming, if you take the metaphor, to be the instrument of that revenge. It's just a shame that he was unable to stop Connor from bonding with Angel and the crew; Connor's feelings toward them made the betrayal that should have been Holtz's revenge that much harder so the plan was changed to suit his (Holtz) purposes.
He did have to change his plans several times, again - this has been mentioned, but that's what the man was good at - manipulating others to do his bidding whilst keeping his hands relatively clean, although, as we know, he could mix it up with the best of them when he had to.
Holtz was the main man in his day, and even when brought forward two centuries, he still had the where-for-all to know how to do his job even though his surroundings had changed beyond his wildest imagination.
T
T.I.P
Guest
Thing is though, this is the reason Holtz was legendary and was capable of having a vampire like Angelus run for his life. This was actually one of my favorite Holtz bits ever.
Skanky Vamp
Sniffin' the Slayer
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- Aug 12, 2008
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I could have taken Holtz for a few more seasons. I like his character; had legs enough to stand on his own and seemed to have wonderful material for enough backstory.
Edmund Blackadder
Scooby
I did like his character but I couldn't get behind him even remotely. I'm on the 'Angel isn't responsible for Angelus' bandwagon so his revenge came off as evil, I couldn't really sympathize with his loss because it doesn't justify his actions. Killing Angel is bad enough but in doing so he was willing to kill his friends and technically all the innocent people Angel helps, he's just another evil bastard to me.
AmongFriends
Townie
Holtz was a mean mean man. Given, Angel did kill his entire family and turn his daughter into a vampire but the man sure knew how to hold a grudge. I never really liked the character. When I first saw the Holtz arc, I thought his views on Angel would change once he realized that Angel had a soul but I guess that didn't matter to Holtz. Once Holtz started gathering troops, I began to lose interest. I was just kind of pissed because Team Angel couldn't really kill him because he was human. Sure, he had the whole "sympathy" because of the loss of his family thing going for him but come on, how long can one use that excuse to not kill someone. Holtz is probably the only big bad that deserved to be killed. He was human but he was threatening a Champion, trying to bring him down and essentially ruining his life up until the very end of his life. Plus, he introduced us to Justine and don't even get me started on Justine...
Airam
[No message]
LorneyTunes
I've been forking!
Vengeance be thy cause
Holtz was a great big bad , partly because he was a human driven by pain and remorse. Angeleus took his whole life , there was no way he would ever see that Angel was now the good guy. The fact that the suffering he went through made him very focused on killing vampires good or bad all he saw was evil.
I liked the fact he was kind of like Van Helsing but so much more classy. I loved his deep growly voice and his manners lol .
He was very manipulative, cunning , I was sad to see him go and for Justine to stab him , what a unworthy way to go.
Yet he served his cause which was vengeance !
I found this too funny the music lol
- Daniel Holtz in the 21st Century
Holtz was a great big bad , partly because he was a human driven by pain and remorse. Angeleus took his whole life , there was no way he would ever see that Angel was now the good guy. The fact that the suffering he went through made him very focused on killing vampires good or bad all he saw was evil.
I liked the fact he was kind of like Van Helsing but so much more classy. I loved his deep growly voice and his manners lol .
He was very manipulative, cunning , I was sad to see him go and for Justine to stab him , what a unworthy way to go.
Yet he served his cause which was vengeance !
I found this too funny the music lol
- Daniel Holtz in the 21st Century
Airam
Zen baby.
Ummm, yeah I'm really not a Holtz fan so much actually... for no deeper reason really other than he just kinda bored me and the actor that played him just wasn't really my cup of tea either I guess... I was just never very impressed with him. I could tolerate him when he interacted with the the main cast we love, but as soon as it was just him and that demon guy or him and his lackeys on screen my finger just itches to hit the fast forward button... it just doesn't hold my attention especially not on repeated viewings.
Skanky Vamp
Sniffin' the Slayer
- Joined
- Aug 12, 2008
- Messages
- 26,460
But I think we need to separate Holtz; because you honestly have pre-20th century Holtz, as well as BQ and AQ. I think after Quor'Toth his character was rather pointless for all intensive reasons. Did like the idea of Holtz building an army of slayers but it was never really followed thru with.
disturbedvanity
Five by Five
I've just finished S3, and I can say, without a doubt, that...
HOLTZ IS A BITCH!!
However, I guess that would make him a good big bad, huh? Idk, he was really interesting, and he really knew something about honor. (like when Connor was first born in the alley). And, really, he wasn't all that evil. Sure, he made Angel's job a bitch, but all he was after was Angel's death. Can anyone really blame him? Well, truly, Angel is not Angelus, but, everyone makes that mistake apparently... :/
Now, Justine on the other hand, had no right, or reason to what she did. She can ** **** ***** *. If you know what I mean. 🙂
And Wesley REALLY should've talked with AI before he ran off, but he had the right intentions.
There's my rant on AS3 Big Bads.
HOLTZ IS A BITCH!!
However, I guess that would make him a good big bad, huh? Idk, he was really interesting, and he really knew something about honor. (like when Connor was first born in the alley). And, really, he wasn't all that evil. Sure, he made Angel's job a bitch, but all he was after was Angel's death. Can anyone really blame him? Well, truly, Angel is not Angelus, but, everyone makes that mistake apparently... :/
Now, Justine on the other hand, had no right, or reason to what she did. She can ** **** ***** *. If you know what I mean. 🙂
And Wesley REALLY should've talked with AI before he ran off, but he had the right intentions.
There's my rant on AS3 Big Bads.