Holtz: Good Guy or Villian?
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Skytteflickan88
Proud Spikette
Villain.
He didn't seem blinded by revenge in season 3. Disturbed, sure, but I sense he was never trully good. He was capable of feeling for Connor and saw the difference between Angel with a soul and without a soul.
I think he's simply one of those guys that saw the world in black and white; demon bad, human good. No exceptions. And those guys aren't good guys in my book.
But, we have no idea if Holtz was always like this. I think he was like this before his family died, but maybe a hard life had made him that way.
He didn't seem blinded by revenge in season 3. Disturbed, sure, but I sense he was never trully good. He was capable of feeling for Connor and saw the difference between Angel with a soul and without a soul.
I think he's simply one of those guys that saw the world in black and white; demon bad, human good. No exceptions. And those guys aren't good guys in my book.
But, we have no idea if Holtz was always like this. I think he was like this before his family died, but maybe a hard life had made him that way.
brinkster130
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I think that Holtz technically was a good guy but got blinded by rage to the extent of being quite disturbed. I mean he didn't settle with just wanting to kill Darla and Angelus he really wanted to hurt them, understandable perhaps but at the same time he was so blinded by hatred that he didn't care that Angelus was not in fact Angelus anymore, again perhaps understandable but the point is that he was so blinded by his own rage that he didn't care who he hurt in the process (including an innocent baby). Therefore I would say that he was a good guy turned into a villain.
K
kittenpoker
yes, i think this pretty much sums it up.
Dagenspear
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Dagenspear
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Yeah, but I mean his objectives weren't characteristically evil ones like gaining power for himself. It was venge-y stuff. Which is selfish and bad, but justified. He was a villain to Angel, and a good guy in his POV.
Skytteflickan88
Proud Spikette
^^It's not really justified if you're hurting innocents to get revenge.
Doing evil for fun is of course worse, but doing evil for revenge isn't really that much better.
But everyone has their different definitions of evil and villainy.
Doing evil for fun is of course worse, but doing evil for revenge isn't really that much better.
But everyone has their different definitions of evil and villainy.
brinkster130
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BuffyElevated
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patriot1123
... in a tutu. Pillock.
I don't think he was either a good guy or a villain. I think, like so many people, he was a complicated man driven by his personal demons, which happened (for him) to be formidable ones. He was blinded by the desire for revenge, but he also cared for Connor and raised him as his own. I didn't like him, and didn't want him to succeed, but I understood him.
S
Skytteflickan88
I wonder if he ever cared for Connor. He could have pretended all along. He made Connor kill him after all.
S
sisterofmercy
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brinkster130
Riley's BFF
Villain. He showed blatant disregard for human life numerous times while on his quest to kill Angel. If he was solely seeking revenge for his family he would have killed Angel when he had the chance rather than capturing Angel and torturing him with the intent of drawing out his death to make it as long and painful as possible. It's kinda hard to believe he was a good guy when he wanted to use an innocent infant to settle his vendetta.
Skytteflickan88
Proud Spikette
[MENTION=11161]patriot1123[/MENTION]
I meant that he had Connor find him dead that way, leaving him in this new world full with hatred. Let's all pretend I didn't just forget that important plot point and confuse him with Justine.
I meant that he had Connor find him dead that way, leaving him in this new world full with hatred. Let's all pretend I didn't just forget that important plot point and confuse him with Justine.
P
patriot1123
That is pretty much just as bad as making Connor kill him, isn't it?
Skytteflickan88
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Kana
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Very interesting question.
Like many have said, he started out as someone with noble intentions but it didn't end up that way.
For many of us good and evil are not merely abstract concepts. They arise from our attachments with other people, through identification. It is arguably our connections with others that informs our beliefs, namely our belief in good.
The Beginning
This is what Holtz started with. He had a family whom he loved dearly and I'm sure that was part of what informed his belief in what he was doing, that is to say killing vampires, as right. He also had his belief in God, a divine calling in his mission.
When Angelus and Darla killed his family, his main tie to humanity was broken. He seemed to shun the group of men he worked with.
JUSTINE: What's wrong with revenge? It's all some of us have left.
I honestly believe that the day his family was killed he lost all other reason. Compare this to a quote from Wesley.
WES: I've been unreasonable, because I've lost all reason.
This is especially true of Holtz.
The Pursuit of Darla and Angelus
While his torture of Angelus was justified, it uncovers Holtz shift in priorities. In the card they left when diverting Holtz attention so they could kill his family read "How can you hope to save others if you cannot save your own". This shows that his focus really was on the people he was trying to save. When he captures Angelus he doesn't dust him, straight away which would have been the smartest move as he has escaped a few times before. One assumes that everytime they did escape, they went on to slaughter other families. Every time Holtz captured them and tortured them, did he really think about that? It seems that it was no longer his primary concern.
Angelus asks Holtz what he wants when he's torturing, and he replies he doesn't want anything. His revenge is all he has left, to believe in.
One thing he says though is very interesting. He says Angelus has no soul so therefore he cannot be saved.
He also believed his daughter was creatured damned for all eternity. So for Holtz it seems the soul is important. We'll come on to the significance of Angel getting a soul shortly.
Angel With Soul
When Holtz finds out Angel has a soul, it only gives him a moments thought. Now most think that he only looks at things in black and white, but I don't believe that's quite the case...
HOLTZ: Things aren't always black and white, Justine, good and evil.
But when asked about Angel, he simply says he's evil. I honestly don't believe he thinks that, but it's convenient position to take for his revenge.
Now I mentioned that Holtz talked about his daughter being damned for all eternity, but wouldn't the same thing apply to Angel? As far as he knows, Angel was an innocent victim like his daughter, but he seemed to believe that young Sarah was condemned to be evil and in fact he even says it's in Angelus' nature to maim and kill.
For me, it's not that Holtz can't understand these things, but he merely doesn't care anymore. It's not about doing what's right but about getting his revenge. If anything, Angel having a soul is more fitting for his revenge because he can make Angel suffer emotionally in a way he never could with Angelus.
Holtz' virtually nihilistic state of mind also explains why he would possibly kill a baby just to hurt Angel or had no problems with attacking or killing AI as long as he gets what he wants.
While I do believe he loved Connor, it wasn't enough to surmount his hatred. He didn't seem to care that his actions would leave with deprived him of two fathers.
So in short? A tragic figure but certainly by most standards a villain.
Like many have said, he started out as someone with noble intentions but it didn't end up that way.
For many of us good and evil are not merely abstract concepts. They arise from our attachments with other people, through identification. It is arguably our connections with others that informs our beliefs, namely our belief in good.
The Beginning
This is what Holtz started with. He had a family whom he loved dearly and I'm sure that was part of what informed his belief in what he was doing, that is to say killing vampires, as right. He also had his belief in God, a divine calling in his mission.
When Angelus and Darla killed his family, his main tie to humanity was broken. He seemed to shun the group of men he worked with.
JUSTINE: What's wrong with revenge? It's all some of us have left.
I honestly believe that the day his family was killed he lost all other reason. Compare this to a quote from Wesley.
WES: I've been unreasonable, because I've lost all reason.
This is especially true of Holtz.
The Pursuit of Darla and Angelus
While his torture of Angelus was justified, it uncovers Holtz shift in priorities. In the card they left when diverting Holtz attention so they could kill his family read "How can you hope to save others if you cannot save your own". This shows that his focus really was on the people he was trying to save. When he captures Angelus he doesn't dust him, straight away which would have been the smartest move as he has escaped a few times before. One assumes that everytime they did escape, they went on to slaughter other families. Every time Holtz captured them and tortured them, did he really think about that? It seems that it was no longer his primary concern.
Angelus asks Holtz what he wants when he's torturing, and he replies he doesn't want anything. His revenge is all he has left, to believe in.
One thing he says though is very interesting. He says Angelus has no soul so therefore he cannot be saved.
He also believed his daughter was creatured damned for all eternity. So for Holtz it seems the soul is important. We'll come on to the significance of Angel getting a soul shortly.
Angel With Soul
When Holtz finds out Angel has a soul, it only gives him a moments thought. Now most think that he only looks at things in black and white, but I don't believe that's quite the case...
HOLTZ: Things aren't always black and white, Justine, good and evil.
But when asked about Angel, he simply says he's evil. I honestly don't believe he thinks that, but it's convenient position to take for his revenge.
Now I mentioned that Holtz talked about his daughter being damned for all eternity, but wouldn't the same thing apply to Angel? As far as he knows, Angel was an innocent victim like his daughter, but he seemed to believe that young Sarah was condemned to be evil and in fact he even says it's in Angelus' nature to maim and kill.
For me, it's not that Holtz can't understand these things, but he merely doesn't care anymore. It's not about doing what's right but about getting his revenge. If anything, Angel having a soul is more fitting for his revenge because he can make Angel suffer emotionally in a way he never could with Angelus.
Holtz' virtually nihilistic state of mind also explains why he would possibly kill a baby just to hurt Angel or had no problems with attacking or killing AI as long as he gets what he wants.
While I do believe he loved Connor, it wasn't enough to surmount his hatred. He didn't seem to care that his actions would leave with deprived him of two fathers.
So in short? A tragic figure but certainly by most standards a villain.
K
kittenpoker
awesome post! I totally agree.
white avenger
white avenger
(Before I start this, my apologies if it seems to be a bit off subject, but I just thought that the parallels between Robin Wood and Holtz are interesting, and too numerous to be a mere accident.)
Holtz was the "Angel" equivalent of Robin Wood. Both men had suffered tragic losses at the hands of monsters, and both men dedicated their entire lives, not to fighting vampires specifically, but a quest to exact vengeance on the particular vampire responsible for their grief. Granted, Holtz was a vampire hunter before Angel killed his wife and children, but I got the feeling that he saw it as more a job or a duty, the way the average police officer sees his everyday routine. Once his "job" spilled over into his personal life, it became a personal vendetta, so much so that he, like Wood, actually formed an alliance of sorts, not with vampires, but with other evil creatures, Sahjahn (sp?) in Holtz's case and the First Evil in Wood's.
Driven by their lifelong obsessions, both men became blinded to the fact that the monsters responsible for their respective losses in effect no longer existed. In the end, both men wound up recruiting an ally with a connection to the objects of their obsessions, Giles on Wood's case and Wes in Holtz's, and ultimately, both men's attempts at vengeance resulted in ill feelings and loss of trust between friends, but no real success in their primary goal.
Short version, Holtz and Wood exploited the existing doubts of Wes and Giles in an unsuccessful attempt to kill Angel and Spike, resulting in at least temporarily destroying the bonds of trust and friendship between Wes and Angel, and Buffy and Giles. We might even take the parallels further by comparing Holtz's adoption of Connor, which resulted in his trying to kill Angel to Wood's support and encouragement of Faith when she betrayed Buffy, Holtz's death to Wood's momentary (seemingly) death on the bus after the battle on the hellmouth, and Connor's eventual acceptance of Angel as a loving father in Season 5 to Faith's referral to Wood as her "ex," but that would almost certainly be stretching the similarities to the limits, if not beyond.
Holtz was the "Angel" equivalent of Robin Wood. Both men had suffered tragic losses at the hands of monsters, and both men dedicated their entire lives, not to fighting vampires specifically, but a quest to exact vengeance on the particular vampire responsible for their grief. Granted, Holtz was a vampire hunter before Angel killed his wife and children, but I got the feeling that he saw it as more a job or a duty, the way the average police officer sees his everyday routine. Once his "job" spilled over into his personal life, it became a personal vendetta, so much so that he, like Wood, actually formed an alliance of sorts, not with vampires, but with other evil creatures, Sahjahn (sp?) in Holtz's case and the First Evil in Wood's.
Driven by their lifelong obsessions, both men became blinded to the fact that the monsters responsible for their respective losses in effect no longer existed. In the end, both men wound up recruiting an ally with a connection to the objects of their obsessions, Giles on Wood's case and Wes in Holtz's, and ultimately, both men's attempts at vengeance resulted in ill feelings and loss of trust between friends, but no real success in their primary goal.
Short version, Holtz and Wood exploited the existing doubts of Wes and Giles in an unsuccessful attempt to kill Angel and Spike, resulting in at least temporarily destroying the bonds of trust and friendship between Wes and Angel, and Buffy and Giles. We might even take the parallels further by comparing Holtz's adoption of Connor, which resulted in his trying to kill Angel to Wood's support and encouragement of Faith when she betrayed Buffy, Holtz's death to Wood's momentary (seemingly) death on the bus after the battle on the hellmouth, and Connor's eventual acceptance of Angel as a loving father in Season 5 to Faith's referral to Wood as her "ex," but that would almost certainly be stretching the similarities to the limits, if not beyond.
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Gum Gnome33
Absolutely agree, great points!
I
InsaneMystic
your analysis is awesome as ever! I love your posts!