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[*Maria*]

I was waching S4 the last ep. And when Angel wnet to see Conner. He Seemed so sad but happy at the same time.
CONNOR
Uh, heh heh, I get to make the toast, OK? (puts his hand on Dad's shoulder, looks at Dad) To family. (clinks glass with dad)

Angel watches from outside, smiles, then walks away.

What do you think...

Also When Fred, Wesley, Gunn, Lorne, and Angel wre at W&H gat there tours (or what ever you call them). Why did every one Except Fred (maybe Lorne) Wanted to take the deal. Why did they outher then for Connor.
Hope I'm makeing sense here...

 

[sugarkisses_xx]

I was waching S4 the last ep. And when Angel wnet to see Conner. He Seemed so sad but happy at the same time.
CONNOR
Uh, heh heh, I get to make the toast, OK? (puts his hand on Dad's shoulder, looks at Dad) To family. (clinks glass with dad)

Angel watches from outside, smiles, then walks away.

What do you think...

Also When Fred, Wesley, Gunn, Lorne, and Angel wre at W&H gat there tours (or what ever you call them). Why did every one Except Fred (maybe Lorne) Wanted to take the deal. Why did they outher then for Connor.
Hope I'm makeing sense here...

I totally agree on the subject of Connor. Of course he had mixed emotions. He wanted his son to be happy, and with his new family he could be; but at the same time, he was loosing his son. However, I never think that Angel'd keep Connor at the risk of his son being unhappy and tortured for his own pleasure. 'Not that kind of guy.

As for the tour thing, I think Fred still had her uneasy feelings towards Wolfram and Hart. I think they all did. . .but when Fred saw her science headquarters, she put down her weapon, and was ready to sign on.

 

[Blessed]

Well, Of course it was hard for Angel to "give up" his son. By giving his son a wonderful life he performed a truly selfless act. Connor would be able to live a healthier life. Angel was happy that he made Connor's dreams come true.

Fred would be hesistant to the deal because she knows a bad crowd when she sees one. She was always able to exclude herself from the baddies in society(In Quar Toth and The Jasmine Era). Unlike Gunn who was used to being part of that harsh society. Plus, he had a craving for power(knowledge). Gunn was labled the muscle and felt underestimated in the brains department. He felt W&H could bring him more Knowledge. But as we see in S5 there are consequenses to every acton. Wesley knew what W&H represented. But I bet he felt, as a well as Angel and the team, that they could aquire great resources and help their cause even more. He was too smart to just accept W&H especiallyy after seeing how Lilah was corrupted and violated. Angel, the leader, did what needed to be done at the time to make things right again. I think in the end of the day he made the right decision.

 

[FahrbotDrusilla]

Fred would be hesistant to the deal because she knows a bad crowd when she sees one.

It could also have been foreshadowing like

Gunn: we aint lawyers.
Fred: Or evil. Currently.

Fred dies as a result of working for W&H

 

[LadyLavinia]

Angel, the leader, did what needed to be done at the time to make things right again. I think in the end of the day he made the right decision.


I find this statement very frightening. Even though the Fang Gang were willing to join W&H, they never had a chance to make their decision known, because Angel made it for them. Worse, he made a deal with the SP to give his son a fake new life at the expense of his friends' memories. He used a magical shortcut to solve his personal problems.

It's not Angel's actions I find frightening - because he is a fictional character after all. It is the reaction of many of the show's fans and the media. Many of them see nothing wrong with Angel inflicting his will upon his son and friends. It tells me a lot about the human race that despite declarations about freedom and free will, humans really see nothing wrong with an individual inflicting his/her will upon another or others. Is it any wonder that slavery had lasted so long in this country and throughout the world?

 

[Willow Rosenberg]

LORNE
(singing) Could be...who knows? There's something due any day I will know right away soon as it shows (Fred walks into the lobby) It may come cannonballin' down from the sky gleaming inside... Welcome back, Fred (talking, hugs her) Hi. Hey. (starts dancing with her) Oh, well, let me tell you, when this cruise ship sets sail, I will be on the Lido deck. (chuckles) You know, I mean, it's unbelievable. Secrets of the universe, like Siegfried, evil; Roy, not so much. Oh, and balance? Very, very important. (spins Fred out, and she bumps into Wesley)

FRED
Uh, heh—ooh! Uh... guess we're all straggling back, some more straggly-like than others. Are you—?

WESLEY
Just, uh... a lot to take in.

The elevator bell rings, Gunn steps out.

FRED
You look... did they make you taller?

GUNN
I'm doing this. Hope it's not just me, but if it is, that's all right, too.

WESLEY
As much as it pains me to admit it, there's probably a great deal we could accomplish with the resources available here.

FRED
(looks at Wesley) I can't believe it. Are—are you saying we should take the deal?

ANGEL
I already took it.

It seems apparent to me that with the exception of Fred, they all expressed their desire to be a part of the deal.

 

[LadyLavinia]

It seems apparent to me that with the exception of Fred, they all expressed their desire to be a part of the deal.

And this is where the AI Team's mistakes come in. The others gave in to the temptation of W&H before Angel made the decision. Fred gave in to the temptation to stay with her friends at a place she had misgivings about.

But it is not the Gang's decision to join W&H that is the problem. It is Angel's deal with the firm that resulted in Connor's new life, the erasure of his identity and the erasure of the Gang's memories of Connor that is the problem. And which many fans and the media have no problem with.

 

[Xander]

I find this statement very frightening. Even though the Fang Gang were willing to join W&H, they never had a chance to make their decision known, because Angel made it for them.

Could it not be argued a true leader knows how his/her team would feel?

 

[Willow Rosenberg]

You honestly don't think Wesley, Gunn, Fred and Lorne wouldn't have wanted Connor to have the nice normal life he never got to have after living in a hell dimension for 18 years and being part of a major plot to destroy the world?

And when Wes regained his memory, as far as I can remember, he didn't seem all that upset with Angel for making that decision.

 

[LadyLavinia]

Cordelia,

May I remind you that Angel never bothered to ask them if they were willing to give up their memories of Connor, in order for him to have a new life? ANGEL DIDN'T ASK!

And when Wes regained his memory, as far as I can remember, he didn't seem all that upset with Angel for making that decision.


He was too busy feeling guilty and remorseful over his kidnapping of Connor.

Why are many fans so eager to condone or excuse some of Angel's worse actions as a souled vampire? Why do you go to so much trouble to make excuses?

 

[nerd4hire]

Well first of all I'm not sure anyone is "excusing" anything.

They're saying they understand why Angel, and the characters might make the decisions they made given the circumstances and the personalities of the characters.

Also: I'm not sure anything was erased. What happened was described by Wesley (I believe) as a reality shift.

When you shift realities, what happens to the old one? Does it cease to exist. It's never said that's what happens, so what you can choose to believe given the details offered is Angel made a personal decision to exist in an alternate reality.

Other people may choose a different method of getting there, but I believe they're saying the same thing. They're saying Angel's decision feels like a personal one to them. Viewers are allowed to view a show through their own interpretations. When the possibilities are open ended they can enjoy the details of the show from many different perspectives.

Lady L chooses to see Angel as an instrument of evil running around erasing everyone's memories. Good for her. She should enjoy herself. Personally, I don't see that when I watch the show.

 

[Willow Rosenberg]

What happened with Connor was in essence the same thing that happened with Dawn...So are the monks evil too because they didn't ask Buffy if she wanted a sister?? Or ask everyone who knew of Dawn's presence if they could invade their memories?

BTW Lady L, you chose to ignore my question...

You honestly don't think Wesley, Gunn, Fred and Lorne wouldn't have wanted Connor to have the nice normal life he never got to have after living in a hell dimension for 18 years and being part of a major plot to destroy the world?

It's funny how that happened 😀