Hot Topic: Does Buffy sleep with Spike because he's already "evil" and can't turn bad on her?

There was definitely some need to reject emotion because emotion leads to heartbreak. And after being brought back from eternal happiness, she of all people would want to avoid anything that has a chance of falling apart. But I don't think Spike being evil had anything to do with it. In fact, he was becoming a lot less evil before they slept together. She just assumed she wouldn't need to feel anything towards him because he was so obsessed with her. However whatever her thought process was it was terribly wrong.
 
Fool for Buffy said:
(Buffy) just assumed she wouldn't need to feel anything towards him because he was so obsessed with her.
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Quite the opposite, I think, from what she said in the song in "Once More, With Feeling," ("...It isn't real, but I just want to feel...")Buffy knew that what she felt for Spike, at least initially, wasn't love, but it was, in fact, hard, raw, passion, the kind of figurative fire that would, at least for a few moments, warm her frozen soul. It was sex without love, recreation without romance, and that was exactly what she wanted, and actually needed, at that point in her life. Certainly, it went too far, too fast, and turned into something more akin to pain than passion, but that came later.
 
Oh, that is an interesting question. I love those kind of threads.

I think, from her perspective she tried the one and only true love and it left her heartbroken. She might not even love that deep ever again, because she doesn`t want to be hurt that deeply again.

Then she tried the highschool-dating-thing. Go easy, just flirt and so on. There was not only Parker but also this other guy, who dumped her. I think his name was Scott. They were both not around long enough for her to fall in love with them. But I am sure both of them did hurt her.

And after that she tried the really nice and trustworthy guy who wanted the long-term relationship. And that didn`t work out either. And though I am not sure, if she ever really loved Riley, she was definitley heartbroken again.

She turned to Spike for many reasons. Most of them had to do with her emotional state of mind after she came back from heaven. Some had to do with a sexual attraction, that had probably been there much longer.

But I think she also turned to him, because she was convinced that she could never love him. Sleeping with him seemed to be fail-safe, because she thought he could not reach her emotionally. I would therefore say, yes, she slept with him because he was evil (or soulless) but not because he couldn`t turn bad but because she thought she wouldn`t get emotionally involved. Which turned out to be wrong in the end, because even though she could not love him as long as she was soulless, she did feel enough for him (and herself) to be hurt by the unhealthiness of their relationship.

Flow
 
I think part of it was the trust between her and Spike. As early as S5 he was trusting him over all others to care for her sister and mother. She knew she could tell him anything, do anything with him and he would not hurt her, judge her or abandon her. She was taking advantage of his feelings for her self medication. Spike was the only one she could tell the truth to about being in heaven. He was part of the gang yet not part of the gang and she felt comfortable with him. She found his crypt "cosy".
 
white avenger said:
Quite the opposite, I think, from what she said in the song in "Once More, With Feeling," ("...It isn't real, but I just want to feel...")Buffy knew that what she felt for Spike, at least initially, wasn't love, but it was, in fact, hard, raw, passion, the kind of figurative fire that would, at least for a few moments, warm her frozen soul. It was sex without love, recreation without romance, and that was exactly what she wanted, and actually needed, at that point in her life. Certainly, it went too far, too fast, and turned into something more akin to pain than passion, but that came later.
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I agree with this, by "not feel anything" I really meant "not feel love". Either way she was wrong.
 
There was something inherently destructive about giving in to the sexual attraction she was feeling, especially when it progressed so much further at the point when they could both physically hurt each other again, so it certainly wasn't that he was 'safe' as such. The attraction was there but it was dangerous, a little of how she felt about the darker side within herself too anyway. She gave in to it to feel something whilst also thinking she could protect herself emotionally. She was so numb and 'absent' from her surroundings often on her return. She wanted to feel something but also didn't want to be pressured and struggled to break through the desolation she felt at being back. It was easier to use the connection she had with Spike because it didn't matter if she hurt him, if she didn't see him as a person. This did start to change somewhat though, as others have said, she didn't stay as distant from him as she had been because that isn't really her. Although I think that what he was and the limitations she predicted to it played a big part of why she let the relationship go the way it did, I don't think those boundaries were the primary motivation for giving in to what the relationship could provide for her.

The relationship was a release and a punishment, but it did also explore a part of herself that she had previously kept locked down, had been fearful of at times. There was a freedom in allowing herself to do that too. It was a mess really as she felt so wrong on her return and was struggling to deal with the pain of being drawn out of heaven, turning away from her friends and to that darker side within herself was liberating, the relationship both a self punishment and also self expression of how confused she was and how much pain she was feeling too. This is what I tend to think of when she tells him that being in the relationship was killing her when she breaks up with him. To use him like that and to give in to the attraction was to turn further from important parts of who she was and so was destroying part of herself to do it. There is a darker side to her power and I think she does feel that connection, but she herself can't live in the shadows, separate from her friends and family like that and 'be Buffy', be happy. This is why she has to choose to escape the ground and be back in the world with Dawn at the end.
 
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No, not really. I think it was her emptiness that drove her to Spike. Sex made her feel something other than hollow, but tbh I don't think it meant much that it was Spike, other than to further her guilt. But I think that's as equally destructive as sleeping with an evil demon because there's no consequences.
 
She resented him after every make-out session, so I don't think Buffy had any intentions of sleeping with Spike. I don't think thoughts about the morning after even entered her head. She was very much in the moment and didn't think of any consequences, which is the opposite of Spike, who was probably planning their future together 🙂

The only thing that had changed from their usual kiss-and-run sessions was that he could now hurt her, and he told her she'd 'come back wrong'. I'm sure Buffy had thought this about herself and Spike was just confirming what she already believed. The violence between them seemed to ignite something within her, and the confirmation that she was 'wrong' could have made her feel emptier then ever, and here was Spike offering her sex/passion/violence, enough to fill the emptiness.

In 'Gone' when she wasn't herself, she went to Spike for sex after refusing him earlier in the episode. Maybe being told she 'came back wrong' in Smashed had the same effect and she felt free enough to allow herself what she really wanted.
 
I always saw it as she couldn't feel anything emotionally, she felt disconnected from her slayer calling and friends and family but she could feel things physically and the sex with Spike gave her the happys and made her feel alive if only for a moment. I guess la petit mort was la petite life in this case.
 
For me Buffy was trying to fill a hole in herself with Spike. It happens a lot in life: a woman or man feels something missing in themselves, something lost, and since they don't understand the nature of what they lost or are missing they strive to fill that hole. Spike filled that hole for Buffy. He was someone she felt safe to confide sensitive matters, and he helped fill the void of lack of companionship. But Buffy never defined for herself the nature of her "hole". And people who "fill holes" are usually something to be suspcious of, since true love doesn't come from filling holes but from a promise of something more. Buffy never answered for herself what she was missing from herself, the answer of which would have provided closure. When you have a hole, no person can heal it but yourself. In this sense, expecting Spike's companionship to heal it would be unfair. Holes require self-analysis and catharsis. If Buffy had healed her soul she most likely wouldn't have need of Spike afterwards, since to me Spike was obviously convenient "hole filling" material. Buffy sleeps with Spike so that she can conveniently ignore what her issues are. He's a way to avoid confrontation with her existential crisis. He's not the problem but he's not the solution.
 
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AnthonyCordova said:
For me Buffy was trying to fill a hole in herself with Spike. It happens a lot in life: a woman or man feels something missing in themselves, something lost, and since they don't understand the nature of what they lost or are missing they strive to fill that hole. Spike filled that hole for Buffy. He was someone she felt safe to confide sensitive matters, and he helped fill the void of lack of companionship. But Buffy never defined for herself the nature of her "hole". And people who "fill holes" are usually something to be suspcious of, since true love doesn't come from filling holes but from a promise of something more. Buffy never answered for herself what she was missing from herself, the answer of which would have provided closure. When you have a hole, no person can heal it but yourself. In this sense, expecting Spike's companionship to heal it would be unfair. Holes require self-analysis and catharsis. If Buffy had healed her soul she most likely wouldn't have need of Spike afterwards, since to me Spike was obviously convenient "hole filling" material. Buffy sleeps with Spike so that she can conveniently ignore what her issues are. He's a way to avoid confrontation with her existential crisis. He's not the problem but he's not the solution.[/QUOTE

Nice reading. Just a couple of points (apologies if this sounds terse - I'm going for brevity).
a) It happens a lot in life - sounds as though it's pathological and, IMO, it's not. Lack is normal in all people (perhaps not in psychopaths but I'm not going down that road). It's the sense that something is lost or lacking that motivates us (to work, to create, to consume, to enter into relationships, to seek out answers etc.). Desire (I'm presuming it's desire you're talking about) though is always misplaced. The thing we think we desire is not the true object of our desire. This is - in part - what Spike reveals to Wood.
b)Holes require self-analysis and catharsis - agree. I'd suggest the therapeutic/analytical route is the one Spike undertakes - analysis of self and other, adopting both the analyst and the analysand position etc. But - can you ever achieve full self knowledge - or knowledge of the other? Isn't this omniscience? Soul - I'm ignoring because I have yet to establish what it is and I left my Catholicism behind a long time ago). Is catharsis always complete?
c) I agree it's an existential crisis (for both of them) but, for me, existence itself is traumatic inasmuch as desire is the result of an imaginary loss which we project into the future (logic of future anterior but I'm not going there either). I'd argue that imaginary resolutions to lack result in something akin to Twilight - a premature utopianism.
d) the "void of lack" from my perspective can never be filled because lack is what drives us, lack is at the core of the subject and lack is in language. I thought Whedon acknowledged this with Deeper Well " This goes all the way through to the other side. So, I figure, there's a bloke somewhere around New Zealand standing on a bridge like this one, looking back down at us. All the way down. There's a hole in the world. Feels like we ought to have known". I'm sure he also said it was important that Spike had this line (my hearing isn't great!). Also - there is a drawing of Spike with a hole where his heart should be.
e) Buffy - has issues she still hasn't resolved (as far as I can see). The flashback at the beginning of The Body is very telling about her relationship with Joyce. We know there are problems with Hank.

I'm just asking questions - I'm not being confrontational!! I didn't introduce the unconscious Whedon did. And it's there much earlier.

Truthfully, I'm not convinced she thought he was truly evil. It was a convenient way of denying truths about herself that were unpalatable. She was angry with her friends and felt guilty about that anger because they'd done it in her best interests (the text questions this). She was striving for a completeness that only exists after death (or before life). She felt guilt and anger about the death of her mother. She also had conflicting feelings towards her mother She couldn't come to terms with her own sexual desires. What she felt was corporeal - not the spiritual "love" she felt for Angel. I always got the impression that she didn't experience's GoSpuffy's La petit mort with Riley (she used to go slaying after). Sex with Spike was good! She felt "dirty, unclean and a thing". She enjoyed S/M. These are conditions associated with the abject - they're the things we have to distance ourselves from to persuade ourselves we're better than animals (she gets angry with him when he refers to her as an animal). They're all considered taboo - we use language and religious ritual to protect ourselves from the taboo. "Slayer" reinforces these barriers - both through the ritual of slaying and the fact that it has a specific meaning. It doesn't permit ambivalence - it could mean "murder". She's always careful to pin it down. Her barriers were breaking/had broken down. She projected "dirty, unclean and a thing" onto him. Moreover, I don't think trust (or lack of it) can be entirely related to him being a vampire. I think it's predominantly MEN she doesn't trust. Her father left her, Parker left her, Giles was leaving her. Riley went. The Slayer can handle Vampires - Buffy has trouble with men.

TL😀R - I'll probably change my mind tomorrow.
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GoSpuffy said:
I always saw it as she couldn't feel anything emotionally, she felt disconnected from her slayer calling and friends and family but she could feel things physically and the sex with Spike gave her the happys and made her feel alive if only for a moment. I guess la petit mort was la petite life in this case.
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See - that's the problem with the French - not only do they not speak English they have better words for orgasm. I'm going with jouissance.
 
GoSpuffy
GoSpuffy
Great word! As a western Canadian it is possible I speak the most butchered version of French in the world. Imagine France French taught by a combo of québécois speaking and FSL teachers and spoken with a heavy English accent. Tres awful.
@TriBel that is a very thoughtful Freudian reading of the issue. I also don't think the point would be to fill her hole with something else, but to realize the nature of the Freudian void, experience what catharsis might be available in such a realization, and move on. It is correct to say that such privations come from a much earlier stage of human development and never get filled; we do what we can with them and move on. Buffy is rich in such Freudian themes; I would also compare the slayer theme of being-towards-death with Heideggerian and Freuduan themes of death instinct. The show is rich in such ideas. Anyway, thanks for the thoughtful commentary.
 
Punish herself with 'evil' because she doesn't deserve better after being rejected by 'good' (aka Heaven). Trying to fill whatever emptiness she had after her resurrection. She has no respect for him so she doesn't mind using him this way, except it's crappy on her part which is one of the reasons she leaves the 'relationship', she doesn't like the person she is with him. She can confide in him because she knows it won't get back to her friends.

One could also think that there are some Angel issues in there. Spike is everything wrong that's right about Angel and vice versa. He's also 'trained' by Angel.
 
AnthonyCordova said:
@TriBel that is a very thoughtful Freudian reading of the issue. I also don't think the point would be to fill her hole with something else, but to realize the nature of the Freudian void, experience catharsis, and move on. It is correct to say that such privations come from a much earlier stage of human development and never get filled; we do what we can with them and move on. Buffy is rich in such Freudian themes; I would also compare the slayer theme of being-towards-death with Heideggerian and Freuduan themes of death instinct. The show is rich in such ideas. Anyway, thanks for the thoughtful commentary.
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Thanks - I was worried I'd gone too far. Heidegger - I'm not a philosopher so I'm not going that far back. I'm on familiar ground with Thanatos. My natural position is towards Kristeva but at the moment I'm working with Merleau-Ponty's Visible and Invisible - there's a denigration of vision in S7 so it's coming together. Thanks again! 🙂
 
@TriBel I myself am working through AtS and Btvs from a Foucauldian perspective entailing his discussions on power and power relations. Someday it will be a paper I'll share here.
 
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