Hot Topic: Should the Scoobies have brought Buffy back from the dead after The Gift?

[Buffy Summers]

Was bringing Buffy back from the dead the right thing to do?

 

[Skanky Vamp]

"Should the Scoobies have brought Buffy back from the dead after The Gift?"
No; they were messing with things they did not understand and failed to plan accordingly.

"Was bringing Buffy back from the dead the right thing to do?"
Yes; they needed the help. Sunnydale fell into a 'post-apocalyptic' state and Buffy was the only thing that could right it.

 

[thetopher]

No.
In the overall scheme of things Buffy's resurrection was incredibly damaging. It led to not only The First getting an opportunity to overrun the earth with its evil apocalyptic schemes- slaughtering hundreds upon hundreds in the process- but then we got Twilight, the end of magic, zompires plagues the re-writing of magic, new more powerful vamps.

None of this is good (in fact some of this is epicly bad) and all of it is only really possible because Buffy was brought back and then went on to do what she did.

And all because the Scoobies had to find a way to deal with, in all essence, a lame biker gang.
On the whole I was never really convinced that super-witch Willow, Spike and The Buffybot were somehow incapable of filling in for the slayer.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

On the whole I was never really convinced that super-witch Willow, Spike and The Buffybot were somehow incapable of filling in for the slayer.

They couldnt. That's why they had to use the sexbot. That's why once the sexbot was dead everyone flocked to the hellmouth to party because they knew Buffy wasn't there.

 

[thetopher]

They couldnt. That's why they had to use the sexbot.

And I remain unconvinced. Being what we're shown Willow's power level to be in Season 5/6. She had tons of abilities she never seemed to use here- telekinetic use of a stake for example.
Add to that Spike (who had, in the past, being a match for Buffy or at the very least a newly sired vamp) and the Bot and bringing Buffy back wasn't worth it- at least not in the long run.

 

[Taake]

No. If they needed a Slayer there was one chilling in prison they could've broken out if their need was so dire. A prison break seems like a lot less effort than invoking dark forces and returning the dead from the grave...

They did for selfish reasons. If they had done an iota of research they could've found out about that thingy Angel used to ascertain Cordy's presence on a higher plane and might've gotten some insight into where Buffy was, instead of just jumping the gun and assuming that she would've gone to hell. They didn't want to know where she was, because they were lost without her, and thusly brought her back for their own sake and not Buffy's sake. I never liked that they never really had to take any resoponsibility for this, that Buffy bore the burden on her own, even if they shed a few tears at the end of OMWF. Her pain was directly caused by them and she had to deal with it all on her own while they buggered on about their own petty problems.

So no, they shouldn't have.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

And I remain unconvinced. Being what we're shown Willow's power level to be in Season 5/6. She had tons of abilities she never seemed to use here- telekinetic use of a stake for example.

She had that ability since season 2 and never used it. Willow never used magic when it was an opportune time to use it.. you will be unconvinced, because within the confines of the show very little made actual sense.

It made sense for Buffy to be resurrected but not for the Scoobies to do it. It would have made sense for ANY slayer to be resurrected, but there were reasons why they werent.

 

[Mr Trick]

You might say that the answer is no, from a moral stand point, and from a creative stand point. Even accepting than the writers came up with some interesting stuff to sell the conseqences of Buffy being returned to the earth, there is another argument that to have kept her dead would have been a much bolder move and would have led to fresher possible creative stories too.

I think because of what happens with Willow's character later in the season then it makes sense than she is the one to do it. I don't agree that she had that sort of power since S2 though, like learning anything it takes time.

 

[white avenger]

In the overall scheme of things Buffy's resurrection was incredibly damaging. It led to not only The First getting an opportunity to overrun the earth with its evil apocalyptic schemes- slaughtering hundreds upon hundreds in the process- but then we got Twilight, the end of magic, zompires plagues the re-writing of magic, new more powerful vamps.

Though I pretty much agree as to the ultimate consequences of bringing Buffy back, in defense of the Scoobies, they had no idea the can of worms that they were about to open. All that they were trying to do was to rescue their friend. They weren't looking beyond that point. Yes, they should have, but they didn't. They obviously knew that, if Giles had found out about their plans beforehand, he would have stopped them, and by that simple fact, they should have known that what they were attempting was wrong and probably extremely dangerous, but they chose to ignore the fact.

And all because the Scoobies had to find a way to deal with, in all essence, a lame biker gang.
On the whole I was never really convinced that super-witch Willow, Spike and The Buffybot were somehow incapable of filling in for the slayer.

And I remain unconvinced. Being what we're shown Willow's power level to be in Season 5/6. She had tons of abilities she never seemed to use here- telekinetic use of a stake for example.
Add to that Spike (who had, in the past, being a match for Buffy or at the very least a newly sired vamp) and the Bot and bringing Buffy back wasn't worth it- at least not in the long run.

I got the feeling that the Buffy-bot was little more than a stop gap measure, more to cover up Buffy's death, in order to prevent Dawn from having to leave, than to patrol the hellmouth. It was a machine, plain and simple, and what's more, a machine used for very stressful activities that it probably never was supposed to be used for. Granted, it had what Warren and Spike considered to be Buffy's strength, and what they thought was her skill level in fighting, but she was primarily a sex toy, not an assault weapon. She couldn't have lasted very much longer, the way that they were using her.

As for Spike, as highly as I regard his fighting skills, he was, at that point, still a soulless monster who probably only stayed in Sunnydale because of his promise to Buffy to take care of Dawn. Patrolling with the Scoobies was just something to occupy his time and keep feed his craving for combat He didn't like the Scoobies, and they didn't trust him If anything ever happened to Dawn, he would have no reason whatsoever to hang around a place that almost certainly contained nothing but painful memories for him.


That leaves a super-witch, who, no matter how powerful she might be, simply couldn't have done the job alone, even with the questionable help of the other Scoobies.

No. If they needed a Slayer there was one chilling in prison they could've broken out if their need was so dire. A prison break seems like a lot less effort than invoking dark forces and returning the dead from the grave...

They did for selfish reasons.

I'm not sure that selfish would be the right word Ignorance, certainly, combined with genuine concern that their friend was suffering in some hell dimension, which makes their actions understandable, if not particularly prudent.

Also, at that point, I don't think that the Scoobies were all that convinced of Faith's rehabilitation, if they knew about it at all. Just as likely, they thought that she had confessed in order to escape the Watchers' wet team. It's quite likely, in fact, that the only thing keeping Faith alive was that the Watchers would have had too hard a job killing her while she was surrounded by prison guards. While protecting Faith wasn't very likely high on Willow's list of priorities, she, and Giles, almost certainly knew that breaking her out of prison would be pretty much signing her death warrant, which would, ultimately, leave them back in the same situation that they were already in: a bunch of slightly skilled (relatively) amateurs, trying to do the Slayer's job.

 

[Wildfly]

the act itself, not its consequences? if it was wrong then Xander was also wrong too, to bring Buffy back in Prophecy Girl.
or there is a time limit when it becomes wrong? is it OK till you can do CPR and bring someone back without brain damage? which can be 4 to about 30 minutes (!) in low temperatures?
but what if modern technology will allow reversible cryopreservation? so let's say, there'll be no time limit anymore to do CPR?
then the poor soul moves to its new place towards the nice light, (takes about 40+ days according to the Tibetan Book of the Dead as far as i remember)
makes itself comfortable in its new home, then some well-meaning clinical staff or witch drags it back. Depressing.

or the difference is that in the Gift she committed suicide and in Prophecy Girl she was killed?
So we shan't do CPR to people who commit suicide? But then how we know if they were in their right minds? Some say that people who committed suicide actually regretted it in their last minutes and were grateful when they were brought back...

 

[Skanky Vamp]

the act itself, not it's consequences? if it was wrong then Xander was also wrong too, to bring Buffy back in Prophecy Girl.
or there is a time limit when it becomes wrong?

There is a difference between doing CPR (or any type of life saving techniques paramedics use) and reviving a person versus bringing someone back to life that is in a coffin, half-rotted, buried for months with a grave and a plot.

 

[Wildfly]

There is a difference between doing CPR (or any type of life saving techniques paramedics use) and reviving a person versus bringing someone back to life that is in a coffin, half-rotted, buried for months with a grave and a plot.

The keyword here is 'a plot' 🙂
So if Buffy was in cyro all nice and frozen not a bit disgusting & rotten then if Will would have brought her back after a few months then it'd be fine?

 

[Skanky Vamp]

So if Buffy was in cyro all nice and frozen not a bit disgusting & rotten then if Will would have brought her back after a few months then it'd be fine?

If Buffy had been cyro'd it would have been the same circumstance as the paramedics mentioned previously. You've only a few minutes after the heart stops to preserve someone. The word preserve is not just in regard to the body but in ones ability to resuscitate the body; death is only pronounced once the ability to resuscitate has passed, therefore if you preserve the body soon enough they are not legally dead. So she could not have been brought back from the dead as she never would have been deemed dead.

 

[Wildfly]

If Buffy had been cyro'd it would have been the same circumstance as the paramedics mentioned previously. You've only a few minutes after the heart stops to preserve someone. The word preserve is not just in regard to the body but in ones ability to resuscitate the body; death is only pronounced once the ability to resuscitate has passed, therefore if you preserve the body soon enough they are not legally dead. So she could not have been brought back from the dead as she never would have been deemed dead.

But that's the thing, in cyro a human is totally dead and can remain so for ethernity.
Yet he is not legally dead, cos theoretically he can be
resuscitated? so his widow, i mean wife cant remarry in the meantime? Or maybe she can if she divorces him cos he isn't fulfilling his husbandry obligations or how it's called?

Also in Whedonverse we have the soul thingy. The new (resourrected) Buffy body wasnt called a clone, it was the same old Buffy because she had Buffy-soul called back. So theoretically you can always
resuscitate someone - there are no irreversible deaths in the Buffyverse, (there was a thread about it here on BB) so we nead to update legislation to fit advanced medicine/magic. 🙂

 

[Skanky Vamp]

But that's the thing, in cyro a human is totally dead and can remain so for ethernity.
Yet he is not legally dead, cos theoretically he can be
resuscitated? so his widow, i mean wife cant remarry in the meantime? Or maybe she can if she divorces him cos he isn't fulfilling his husbandry obligations or how it's called?

Well, I know if the wife if a cold fish in bed you can get a divorce. I would assume none would be colder than a frozen one. Even the cats into necrophilia let them warm up to room temperature.

 

[cryptwarmer]

They were wrong.

Mixture of ignorance, power, selfishness and grief led to bringing her back. They thought it was a solution. Easier than processing what happened and growing into the new responsibilities.

If they weren't wrong, S6 and S7 wouldn't have had to happen.

 

[HowiMetdaSlayer]

I'm not sure that selfish would be the right word Ignorance, certainly, combined with genuine concern that their friend was suffering in some hell dimension, which makes their actions understandable, if not particularly prudent.

Yeah that. ^
I think that with what happened to Angel at the end of S2 led the Scoobies to believe that the same had happened to Buffy.

 

[bespangeled]

No. If they needed a Slayer there was one chilling in prison they could've broken out if their need was so dire. A prison break seems like a lot less effort than invoking dark forces and returning the dead from the grave...

They did for selfish reasons. If they had done an iota of research they could've found out about that thingy Angel used to ascertain Cordy's presence on a higher plane and might've gotten some insight into where Buffy was, instead of just jumping the gun and assuming that she would've gone to hell. They didn't want to know where she was, because they were lost without her, and thusly brought her back for their own sake and not Buffy's sake. I never liked that they never really had to take any resoponsibility for this, that Buffy bore the burden on her own, even if they shed a few tears at the end of OMWF. Her pain was directly caused by them and she had to deal with it all on her own while they buggered on about their own petty problems.

So no, they shouldn't have.

I could not agree more! If Willow had the mojo to bring Buffy back then she definitely had the mojo to find out where Buffy was! But she wanted the adulation as much as she wanted to have a slayer to keep the hellmouth under control. Yes, she said Buffy was in hell - the Chosen One - but she never even tried to find out if Buffy really was in hell. Willow was a science geek - she knew about research vs assumptions. Magic was predicated on science, so I really think there is no excuse.

I also find it appalling that Tara was willing to take part in this when she knew it was wrong - and Anya had to know how wrong it was. One thing I will say for Xander, at least he spoke up even if he didn't have the right questions.
 

Also, at that point, I don't think that the Scoobies were all that convinced of Faith's rehabilitation, if they knew about it at all. Just as likely, they thought that she had confessed in order to escape the Watchers' wet team. It's quite likely, in fact, that the only thing keeping Faith alive was that the Watchers would have had too hard a job killing her while she was surrounded by prison guards.

Yeah, because inmates in prison are never killed by other inmates. The only mistake the first made was trying to get one inmate to do the job - use some sort of gas, knock her out and kill her. As for whether the Scoobies were not sure she was reformed enough - huh? They were willing to raise someone who had been dead for months but not willing to drive to LA and check Faith out?

So we shan't do CPR to people who commit suicide? But then how we know if they were in their right minds? Some say that people who committed suicide actually regretted it in their last minutes and were grateful when they were brought back...

CPR is not raising the dead - CPR is a medical procedure to restart a heart beat withing moments of it stopping. CPR is not comparable to using necromancy - the darkest magic - to force a decaying corpse to reanimate and dig her way out of her coffin. Any idiot would have been prepared for consequences - but the Scoobs just wanted to order pizza.

So if Buffy was in cyro all nice and frozen not a bit disgusting & rotten then if Will would have brought her back after a few months then it'd be fine?

Were she in cryo - an expensive procedure done by choice - then the assumption would be that she wanted and expected to be brought back to life.

If they weren't wrong, S6 and S7 wouldn't have had to happen.

Yup - life is seldom ideal. People screw up big time. Very few adults have the safety and happy friendships from their high school years. Holding the Scoobies in some sort of stasis to keep them acting like high school kids would have ruined the show, IMO.

 

[Wildfly]

As i understood the question is whether people should be brought back from death.
Problem is advanced technology gives us tools to stretch the once clear boundaries and there'll be more in the future.

Cyro isn't really a thing now and not reversible, it's more like a quirk of some people, not standard medical procedure. At least i dont have it included in my medical services, it was just an example 🙂

For me there is no difference between what Xander and Willow did. CPR...resourrection...
Those are technicalities.
Buffy's death was reversible in both cases, and i don't care if it is included a 'simple' CPR (tell that to people in the dark ages and they'll define CPR as most foul dark magic, as you called, necromancy) or reanimating a corpse (/making a clone) and calling the soul back, which we can define as advanced technology/magic. Same diff.

Buffy probably would have landed in heaven in both cases.

 

[bespangeled]

s i understood the question is whether people should be brought back from death.
Problem is advanced technology gives us tools to stretch the once clear boundaries and there'll be more in the future.

The OP is about whether Buffy should have been brought back to life - and the method used was black magic - both of which had a strong effect on the entire series.

Cyro isn't really a thing now and not reversible, it's more like a quirk of some people, not standard medical procedure. At least i dont have it included in my medical services, it was just an example 🙂

Cyro was something you mentioned - my understanding is that it is not actually functional yet - but this is Buffy. If Vamps can get woodies then natural laws do not prevail.

For me there is no difference between what Xander and Willow did. CPR...resourrection...
Those are technicalities.

I strongly disagree. CPR is an emergency lifesaving procedure that is done when someone's breathing or heartbeat has stopped. Black magic - and any magic that requires death and blood is considered black magic and necromancy in the show - is a dangerous channeling of dark forces which operates in defiance of natural law.

GILES
(almost yelling)
If I had been I'd have bloody well
stopped you! The Magicks you
channeled are more primal and
ferocious than you can hope to
understand, and you're lucky to
be alive, you rank, arrogant amateur.


WILLOW
You're right. The Magicks I used are
incredibly powerful. I'm incredibly powerful.
(beat)
And maybe it's not such a good idea
for you to piss me off.

Right there you can see the change in Willow. It wasn't just Buffy who was affected. In fact, Joss confirmed that bringing Buffy back was the death knell for Tara. Natural law demands an equal sacrifice - raising Buffy ensured losing Tara.

Buffy's death was reversible in both cases, and i don't care if it is included a 'simple' CPR (tell that to people in the dark ages and they'll define CPR as most foul dark magic, as you called, necromancy) or reanimating a corpse (/making a clone) and calling the soul back, which we can define as advanced technology/magic. Same diff.

Nope - see above. Within the B-verse they are very different. As was Buffy's possible 3rd death - when she flatlines after being shot but her heart immediately restarts.

Buffy probably would have landed in heaven in both cases.

Nah - she hadn't even made it to the bus the first time. 😉
 
@Wildfly: Bus? Wristcutters reference? Or the ending of Jesus Christ Supersrar?

There has to be a song about a bus to heaven somewhere - I was gonna us a plane but given some crashes, that seemed a little too close to heaven. 😀