Hot Topic: Should the Scoobies have brought Buffy back from the dead after The Gift?

[white avenger]

Yeah, because inmates (Faith) in prison are never killed by other inmates. The only mistake the first made was trying to get one inmate to do the job - use some sort of gas, knock her out and kill her. As for whether the Scoobies were not sure she was reformed enough - huh? They were willing to raise someone who had been dead for months but not willing to drive to LA and check Faith out?

I agree, the method that the First Evil used in its attempt on Faith's life was downright pitiful, to say the least. The simplest thing to have done would have been to have the prison overrun by an army of Bringers, or whatever other minions it might have had available. Bear in mind, though, that, at that point, only a select few people even knew about the First Evil's existence, let alone what it was planning. Anything big and spectacular, like an army of Bringers, or a gas attack on the prison would have made national news, and alerted everyone that something big was coming.

Having another inmate kill Faith would have been the least obvious way of eliminating her. Just one con putting a shiv in another con's heart (Though why, not to mention how, they managed to get that Jambaya dagger into the prison is beyond me!)

 

[Guy]

Thanks for refering me here, GwenRaiden! 🙂

I never said it was true, only that if Willow had realized where Buffy was, then it should've affected her thinking, that's all.

That's true.

It's simple, Buffy- when she was on Earth and alive again- said that is how she felt. No 'heaven' messing with her mind (if it even was doing that), it is Buffy. not suicidal Buffy or brainwashed Buffy but traumatized Buffy.

Well, she felt complete, yes. But that has nothing to do with actually BEING complete. I feel complete when I eat pizza, but I'm not gonna spend my entire life eating pizza (sadly🙁).

I think the show pretty much says that Willow crossed a line/did a bad thing by resurrecting Buffy- dark magic is not a friend (there's always consequences) and it cost Willow and everyone else involved throughout the season.
Also triggered the Season 7 apocalypse so, yeah, bad.

A lot of these implications are simply about the show being responsible with its message - they don't want to encourage people to indulge in the "bargaining" stage of grief, so resurrection is painted in a negative light. But that doesn't mean that the act of resurrection, by itself, was wrong.

Sure I would, but I wouldn't stop somebody sacrificing themselves for the greater good- saving the day, which is what Buffy was doing.

Yes, but if you had the chance to bring that someone back to life, AFTER he saved the world, wouldn't you do it? I would. Willow didn't stop Buffy from saving Dawn and the world, she just brought Buffy back from the dead AFTER that.

Because that's what she wanted, her wishes are what matter, not Willow's.

Her wish to remain dead? Which was made in the spur of the moment, in the middle of battle, in the age of twenty? I think that's one case where ignoring Buffy's wishes would have been the right call. Buffy herself ended up being happy to be alive.

Actually they were really no worse than when Buffy was alive, they were 'fine' in the same terms they always had been. They had an equilibrium; Dawn was starting school, looked after, loved and protected, the Hellmouth had 'enough' guardians, no massive threats looming.

So, 'big picture' everyone was fine, at least as fine as they always had been. It was the specific act of bringing Buffy back that made things worse, both in S6 and 7.

They were as fine as they've always been. Which is NOT FINE. And if Buffy had the option of being happy alone in heaven or going back to help her friends fight, I'm sure that she would've chosen the latter.

(It's kind of what happens in season 8, with the whole Twilight thing...)

Heh, well okay, that could have happened, but I still respect that Angel didn't 'take it upon himself' to put his wishes/wants above Cordy's. She didn't commit suicide after all, she just volunteered to ascend.

Agreed. Cordy wasn't dead, she was just somewhere else...

Yeah, I'd agree with that; it was partly 'I can do this' arrogance on her part; not wanting to be without her friend that gave her much affirmation. But, 'close friend suffering in hell' is probably the biggest factor here.
I'm not gonna say that Willow wanted Buffy back simply because 'Buffy makes Willow happy', she did what she did out of pain, and wanting to fix that pain with magic- same old Willow.

Babies can't give consent and birth is a natural process so its not exactly the same as bringing Buffy back from the dead.
However, I'm of course glad that, ultimately, Buffy got more life to live.

It's not EXACTLY the same, but it's the same in the things that matter, IMO. Buffy couldn't give consent either, and the un-natural-ness of resurrection is not a problem.

 

[thetopher]

Yeah, this is still me:

No.
In the overall scheme of things Buffy's resurrection was incredibly damaging. It led to not only The First getting an opportunity to overrun the earth with its evil apocalyptic schemes- slaughtering hundreds upon hundreds in the process- but then we got Twilight, the end of magic, zompires plagues the re-writing of magic, new more powerful vamps.

None of this is good (in fact some of this is epicly bad) and all of it is only really possible because Buffy was brought back and then went on to do what she did.

And all because the Scoobies had to find a way to deal with, in all essence, a lame biker gang.
On the whole I was never really convinced that super-witch Willow, Spike and The Buffybot were somehow incapable of filling in for the slayer.

Basically my heart says Yes but my head says NO. eh oh.

Well, she felt complete, yes. But that has nothing to do with actually BEING complete.

She died saving the world, that's pretty much as as meaningful an ending as Buffy can ever hope for; dying averting the apocalypse is kinda the slayer gig.

A lot of these implications are simply about the show being responsible with its message - they don't want to encourage people to indulge in the "bargaining" stage of grief, so resurrection is painted in a negative light. But that doesn't mean that the act of resurrection, by itself, was wrong.

The show gives us many reasons, as well as a whole bunch of bad consequences, to show us that the Scoobies did not deal with their grief well; they denied it in fact, and reversed it because they ultimately could. Their intentions were mostly good but they could've found other ways of coping and improving their lot.

Yes, but if you had the chance to bring that someone back to life, AFTER he saved the world, wouldn't you do it?

Not if they were happier dead and I also had to contravene natural law to do so. We're basically talking about necromancy here.

Her wish to remain dead? Which was made in the spur of the moment, in the middle of battle, in the age of twenty?

Her wish to remain dead was in 'After Life'. And her assertion that was done and had felt done was said to Giles in 'Grave' over a year later. Buffy felt done.
Did she change her mind? Yes, but not for herself, for Dawn. She wanted to live to see Dawn grow up which...is not that inspiring really; living for somebody else. People should ultimately live for themselves AND others.

And in S7 she is, in some ways, even more unhappy. Same old pressures that her friends cannot understand.

They were as fine as they've always been. Which is NOT FINE.

Agreed, they were as 'fine' as they always had been. But bringing Buffy back made it EPICLY WORSE for everyone involved, especially Buffy.

 

[Guy]

Basically my heart says Yes but my head says NO. eh oh.

LOL. The Aguilera is strong with this one. 😀

She died saving the world, that's pretty much as as meaningful an ending as Buffy can ever hope for; dying averting the apocalypse is kinda the slayer gig.

It's a meaningful end? It's a meaningful action, sure, but why should it be an end, if it doesn't have to be? If Buffy finished her job as the slayer, then a true reward would be to live her life as a normal person, not to be stuck in an empty-yet-comfortable alternate dimension.

Also, Buffy isn't just a slayer, she's also a person. If 'The Gift' completed her destiny as the slayer, that doesn't mean that she had no life left to fulfill. She still had her human life to fulfill.

The show gives us many reasons, as well as a whole bunch of bad consequences, to show us that the Scoobies did not deal with their grief well; they denied it in fact, and reversed it because they ultimately could. Their intentions were mostly good but they could've found other ways of coping and improving their lot.

Exactly. The scoobies were not dealing with their grief well, and the resurrection was a bad coping mechanism, from their perspective... But from Buffy's perspective, it was necessary.

Not if they were happier dead and I also had to contravene natural law to do so. We're basically talking about necromancy here.

1) They were happier, maybe, but they were also prisoners, living a meaningless existence.

2) I still don't get what's so important about natural law. If natural law makes no sense, you should break it. And necromancy is just an insulting way of saying "healing".

Her wish to remain dead was in 'After Life'.

Which was influenced by her depression. She was bummed about losing her happines. Doesn't mean that her life wasn't worth living.

And her assertion that was done and had felt done was said to Giles in 'Grave' over a year later. Buffy felt done.

It's an existential crisis. Everyone goes through such times. It's not a reason to be DEAD.

Did she change her mind? Yes, but not for herself, for Dawn. She wanted to live to see Dawn grow up which...is not that inspiring really; living for somebody else. People should ultimately live for themselves AND others.

I think it is inspiring. It kinda reminds me of Angel's words in Epiphany:

All I wanna do is help. I wanna help because - I don't think people should suffer, as they do. Because, if there is no bigger meaning, then the smallest act of kindness - is the greatest thing in the world.

Helping/loving others is a great source of meaning in life. Someone famous (I can't remember who) once said that the difference between a child and an adult is that an adult realizes that "this isn't about me". An adult realizes that he's a part of a world of people who are not any less important than he is, and acts accordingly. An adult realizes that he's a part of a "chain", as Joss would eventually phrase it in the comics. I think it's brilliant - in 'The Gift', Buffy was willing to die for Dawn. In 'Grave', Buffy was willing to LIVE for Dawn. That's just as heroic, if not more, IMO (It's too bad that 'Grave' wasn't written & directed by Joss, though. David Fury is great, but no one writes a finale like Joss, and I think 'Grave' lost some of the power it could have had because of the lack of Joss).

And in S7 she is, in some ways, even more unhappy. Same old pressures that her friends cannot understand.

That's just life. There's always ups and downs. In 'Empty Places', it was a down. In 'Chosen', it was a definite up. And Buffy's final beautiful smile, which was in response to Dawn's "what are we gonna do now?", makes it impossible for me to think of her resurrection as bad.

Agreed, they were as 'fine' as they always had been. But bringing Buffy back made it EPICLY WORSE for everyone involved, especially Buffy.

It made it worse sometimes, and it made it better at others. As I said, ups and downs.
And it did NOT make it worse for Buffy. Being depressed is better than being dead, because depression can improve. And, of course, she eventually got out of that depression.

 

[thetopher]

It's a meaningful end? It's a meaningful action, sure, but why should it be an end, if it doesn't have to be? If Buffy finished her job as the slayer, then a true reward would be to live her life as a normal person, not to be stuck in an empty-yet-comfortable alternate dimension.

But Buffy never gets to live like a normal person, ever.
Actually, I'm wrong, she does get to live like a regular joe in S6 and ends up hating it so much she bangs Spike. But after that? First, general of world slayers Inc, Twilight, the Siphon, sister dying, and on it goes.

And so she goes back to being the slayer, and she will stop apocalypses because she is Buffy. And then it will go on until she (probably) dies in some apocalypse again.
Who knows, maybe she'll be lucky enough to see all her friends die instead of her, endure new ways of suffering herself.
Because lets make no mistake, Buffy's existence guarantees suffering for her, its her lot.

I'm not saying this to say she shouldn't exist or fight, only that it will not be glorious and rose-tinted, just be more of the same.
She will not be normal or get to be normal...unless you ignore the comics and Buffy has in fact settled down somewhere in a kibbutz. Or is now raising penguins in Guam.

Also, Buffy isn't just a slayer, she's also a person. If 'The Gift' completed her destiny as the slayer, that doesn't mean that she had no life left to fulfill. She still had her human life to fulfill.

Which will end in death, and she will go on to be 'trapped forever' in 'paradise'. That 'horrible fate awaits her at the end' lol.

But seriously, who gets to decide 'how much' life is fulfilling. Buffy's already done her part in saving it, A LOT as the tombstone says. And so she'll save it some more and her life will somehow get more meaningful?

If there is no big glorious end to all things then we know that Buffy will never 'win' that final battle, that there is no higher meaning to things, no plan, so she will never rest.
Until she dies, goes to heaven, with Joyce there (and also Faith who dies like a minute before her). Happy. Forever.

But from Buffy's perspective, it was necessary.

Again, clearly it wasn't from her view. She was happy.
We are NOT told that she was trapped in a 'lobotomy-verse'. We are categorically told that she was in heaven, completed. So, from Buffy's perspective of course she was better off where she was.

1) They were happier, maybe, but they were also prisoners, living a meaningless existence.

What is meaningless about get your reward?
I mean, its basically implied that everyone good, who dies, will go to some paradise or other. So they will all end up with 'meaningless existences' anyway.

Or maybe they will just be completed, whenever that happens to be, energy transformed from one thing into another, a different perspective no less valid than the one before- perhaps even elevated, something spiritual and one with the universe instead of simply mortal flesh.
Who's to say that what Buffy experienced was meaningless?

2) I still don't get what's so important about natural law. If natural law makes no sense, you should break it. And necromancy is just an insulting way of saying "healing".

It's not the same. Healing is natural, bringing back from the dead- no matter who- is not, it is against 'natural law' and has consequences. We have seen this and it leads to death, pain and suffering.

It's an existential crisis. Everyone goes through such times. It's not a reason to be DEAD.

I merely point out that Buffy was obviously not brainwashed by 'heaven', she had enough wherewithal to question herself and her place in the world many months later, to wonder as to why she was back. I don't think she would've thought of that if she thought 'heaven' was a brain-washy lie.

Helping/loving others is a good source of meaning in life. Someone famous (I can't remember who) once said that the difference between a child and an adult is that an adult realizes that "this isn't about me". An adult realizes that he's a part of a world of people who are not any less important than he is, and acts accordingly.

Indeed, empathy for other people is great, but living only for them- feeling obligated to live for them and struggle on- is no less a 'prison' that Buffy's paradise was. She can't escape her destiny of being the slayer, she's still trapped- as you put it- by her circumstances, their just different circumstances that AGAIN she never asked for, Willow (and the others) decided them for her.

And it did NOT make it worse for Buffy.

In the end,. no. But it did make it worse for the world imo. Think about it; the world- the entire world, was almost ended because of Buffy and Angel- again, then we had no magic, NO MAGIC, magic ended for the first time in forever- because of Buffy, she broke the goddam world. lol
And then we have the uncertainty and chaos of new magic, new vampires with extra cool powers to kill people with, and on it goes.
I don't really see Buffy making the world a better place, not anymore. It seems to lurch from one crisis to the next now.

 

[Guy]

But Buffy never gets to live like a normal person, ever.
Actually, I'm wrong, she does get to live like a regular joe in S6 and ends up hating it so much she bangs Spike. But after that? First, general of world slayers Inc, Twilight, the Siphon, sister dying, and on it goes.

And so she goes back to being the slayer, and she will stop apocalypses because she is Buffy. And then it will go on until she (probably) dies in some apocalypse again.
Who knows, maybe she'll be lucky enough to see all her friends die instead of her, endure new ways of suffering herself.
Because lets make no mistake, Buffy's existence guarantees suffering for her, its her lot.

I'm not saying this to say she shouldn't exist or fight, only that it will not be glorious and rose-tinted, just be more of the same.
She will not be normal or get to be normal...unless you ignore the comics and Buffy has in fact settled down somewhere in a kibbutz. Or is now raising penguins in Guam.

Well, if you ignore the comics, then the last scene of season 7 implies that Buffy won the ability to live a normal life - she can choose whether to live as a slayer or live a normal life, because there are dozens of slayers all around the world. She can choose whatever she wants. And if you accept the comics, then Buffy chose to live as a slayer at the end of season 7, but her story isn't over.

Either way, the point is that Buffy wasn't "complete" in 'The Gift'.

Which will end in death, and she will go on to be 'trapped forever' in 'paradise'. That 'horrible fate awaits her at the end' lol.

But seriously, who gets to decide 'how much' life is fulfilling. Buffy's already done her part in saving it, A LOT as the tombstone says. And so she'll save it some more and her life will somehow get more meaningful?

If there is no big glorious end to all things then we know that Buffy will never 'win' that final battle, that there is no higher meaning to things, no plan, so she will never rest.
Until she dies, goes to heaven, with Joyce there (and also Faith who dies like a minute before her). Happy. Forever.

1) Sure, she'll still die someday. And that's not a picnic either. But how is that an argument against resurrecting her in season 6? The simple logic is - if you can prevent death, you do it. And if Buffy doesn't want to live anymore in the age of 90, then that might be understandable, but in the age of twenty? No way. If Buffy doesn't want to live anymore at that age, you put her in suicide watch.

2) Well, we don't know if there is a heaven. And we don't know if Buffy will be with Joyce and/or Faith in it.

Again, clearly it wasn't from her view. She was happy.
We are NOT told that she was trapped in a 'lobotomy-verse'. We are categorically told that she was in heaven, completed. So, from Buffy's perspective of course she was better off where she was.

1) Buffy thought that she was done, maybe, but she was wrong. And she eventually realizes that she was wrong. There was still a lot she needed to live for.

2) Buffy never says she was in heaven, just that "I think I was in heaven". So I just go based on her description of the place, and by that description, there wasn't any reason to leave her there when she could be on earth.

What is meaningless about get your reward?
I mean, its basically implied that everyone good, who dies, will go to some paradise or other. So they will all end up with 'meaningless existences' anyway.

Or maybe they will just be completed, whenever that happens to be, energy transformed from one thing into another, a different perspective no less valid than the one before- perhaps even elevated, something spiritual and one with the universe instead of simply mortal flesh.
Who's to say that what Buffy experienced was meaningless?

It is never implied that EVERYONE will go there. Buffy went there because she died by falling through a DIMENSIONAL PORTAL. Which brought her to another dimension. I think it's safe to assume that joyce wasn't there, for example.

It's not the same. Healing is natural, bringing back from the dead- no matter who- is not, it is against 'natural law' and has consequences. We have seen this and it leads to death, pain and suffering.

I still don't understand this "natural" logic. What's so right about being "natural"? And what's so wrong about being "un-natural"? Hell, what IS natural? If the rules of the universe allow resurrection, then why isn't it natural?

I merely point out that Buffy was obviously not brainwashed by 'heaven', she had enough wherewithal to question herself and her place in the world many months later, to wonder as to why she was back. I don't think she would've thought of that if she thought 'heaven' was a brain-washy lie.

Then she just never realized that it was brainwashing, or she didn't want to admit it. But she said that she "knew" that everyone she cared about was alright, when that was clearly not the case, so she wasn't in a position to make rational choices in that "heaven". Maybe it wasn't a "brain-wash", but it still compromised her ability to choose.

Indeed, empathy for other people is great, but living only for them- feeling obligated to live for them and struggle on- is no less a 'prison' that Buffy's paradise was. She can't escape her destiny of being the slayer, she's still trapped- as you put it- by her circumstances, their just different circumstances that AGAIN she never asked for, Willow (and the others) decided them for her.

She didn't "feel obligated" to live for Dawn, she clearly felt HAPPY to live for Dawn. That's kinda the whole point of her last speech to Dawn - she isn't living reluctantly anymore, she's living happily. That's why she says it with a smile on her face.

In the end,. no. But it did make it worse for the world imo. Think about it; the world- the entire world, was almost ended because of Buffy and Angel- again, then we had no magic, NO MAGIC, magic ended for the first time in forever- because of Buffy, she broke the goddam world. lol
And then we have the uncertainty and chaos of new magic, new vampires with extra cool powers to kill people with, and on it goes.
I don't really see Buffy making the world a better place, not anymore. It seems to lurch from one crisis to the next now.

That's a pretty convoluted line of logic. First of all, no one had any way of knowing that any of these things were going to happen when Buffy was resurrected. Second of all, Buffy may have made costly mistakes after her resurrection, but she also saved countless lives, and the world, time and again. And it's not like the world would have been safe without Buffy - as Nick Fury says, "trouble always comes around". The world dealt with these threats better thanks to Buffy. If Buffy hadn't fulfilled the twilight prophecy, some other slayer would have done so (that's the thing about prophecies - they're inevitable), and that slayer might not have been so willing to reject twilight and save earth.

 

[Reinx]

As Buffy is always critical of everyone she loves....she is also always her own worst critic. Harder on herself than even the hardest she can be on the gang. Even in Heaven, do you suppose she was thinking "I could have...."

Joss is constantly subverting the status quo and pop culture. He wants us to turn our thinking over on its head and really question why the cute blonde runs up the stairs instead of heading out the front door. Buffy always had the option of running out instead of up. Or through, or really whatever way she decided to lead with fist and stake. I doubt that the world would have been better had she stayed in the grave, or worse. Because when the Buffyverse deals with the world, it's actually dealing with...well...everything. Her death, and continued life, are metaphors for all the things we tend to be afraid of and hope for, but continually upside down...because if we are reasonable about it, resurrection just seems like a bad idea, until it isn't.

She's managed to fall in love a couple more times since the scoobies brought her out. I'd say that puts a pin in it for me every time. Should they have brought her back? Who cares, I'm damn glad they did.

 

[DeadlyDuo]

Should they have brought her back? Who cares, I'm damn glad they did.

As Xander says "Me like Buffy. Buffy alive. So, me glad."

 

[black cat]

I think that Buffy should have remain dead..... She was completely no more, in my opinion, in " I fight every day no matter what " mode and I think she reach a point where no more interested in the fate of the world .... The need to make the right choice that everyone expects and the awareness of never being able to live " as a normal girl" .... Her catatonic state well is the total lack of physical energy, and especially psychic .... Being the Slayer is exhausting and it is a kind of "damn life" because whatever your choice affects the personal life or vice versa " The Slayer life/attitude"... Buffy was no more " Buffy" but a desperate soul seeking for peace and no more torment....