Hot Topic: What are the moral implications of Lorne's behavior in Life of the Party?

[Buffy Summers]

What are the moral implications of Lorne telling Angel and Eve to have sex in "Life of the Party" and them doing so (on someone else's initiative)?

 

[Skanky Vamp]

In a way Lorne brought about Fred's doom. By Lorne deciding on his own to have a W&H upgrade and not consulting the team, then witnessing the ramifications of those upgrades on the team, and the fact that Lorne was never held accountable it give justification to Gunn's actions later.

Lest we forget Lorne killed a "man" by ripping his limbs off, told Angel to have sex which, depending on Eve's ability could have unleashed Angelus. But all of those things were ignored and downplayed. The only harm that came about was not on "one of us" the excuse that Gunn uses later to justify his own upgrades and the cost of it.

At least with Willow there was some addressing the violations of Tabula Rasa; with Lorne, because he was the comic relief, it was dismissed, even though it planted the seeds for far greater tragedy. The moral implications? He robbed people of free will and had them act and behave as he saw fit. But because he "didn't know what would happen" it was okay.

 

[thetopher]

I'm surprised the term 'mind-rape' hasn't been applied to Lorne yet. Some people love that term and forcing two other people to have sex- even unintentionally- could qualify.

But then Lorne is a character who's bad points get downplayed all the time. Let's not forget that he 'sets people on their path' whether they are good or evil, champion or eater of babies, he told them what they were 'meant to do' in their life for the price of a little song. He even gave advice to W&H executives such as Lindsey.
The only people he ever banned from his club were Orpheus dealers.

Given all that its hardly surprising that- morally speaking- he had the least qualms about joined up with Evil Inc.

 

[Kana]

What are the moral implications of Lorne telling Angel and Eve to have sex in "Life of the Party" and them doing so (on someone else's initiative)?

Are you being specific to this action or his behaviour in general, because that's not clear. If it's about telling Eve and Angel to have sex, then there are very few moral implications if any. Lorne didn't know he was writing destinies, so it's unfair to blame him for it.

But then Lorne is a character who's bad points get downplayed all the time. Let's not forget that he 'sets people on their path' whether they are good or evil, champion or eater of babies, he told them what they were 'meant to do' in their life for the price of a little song.

Yeah, I don't believe Lorne is immoral in the same way some of the other characters are. My problem is whether Lorne is being genuine or not. He has often heldthe opinion that not everything is black and white. So he engenders a kind of moral or cultural relativism. Perhaps he thought that "solving everything with a sword isn't always the right way to go about things and that sometimes diplomacy can bring about a better net result.

The problem is that Lorne judging from the fact that actually joins AI and the fact that he does make judgements, implies he's actually too cowardly to act upon them. This means he comes across more like a people pleaser than a demon diplomat. The good thing is that he does seem to have more insight into this in Season 5.

 

[Buffy Summers]

Yes, him telling them to have sex.

 

[Kana]

Yes, him telling them to have sex.

In which case there are few if no moral implications at all. He didn't delibarately force them to have sex as there is no evidence he knew he could write destinies if he had his sleep removed. There are no issues with consent here. Lorne typically reads destinies but doesn't write them.

 

[gite63]

And for Angel and Eve, having had sex (under influence) wasn't a big deal. It was just... sex.

 

[Ethan Reigns]

Isn't this really the same story as "Something Blue 4ABB09" in Buffy, where Willow casts a spell that makes her words literally come true? The question is whether he knew he was actually creating a reality where his words would be followed literally or whether that was just an unfortunate circumstance. Once Lorne joined Wolfram & Hart, he still had the responsibility for who he was and the decisions he made, but this did not seem to be an explicit decision. There is no evidence that his statements to "mark your territory" or "get a room" were intended literally - in fact they would tend to disrupt the party, so I doubt he knew what effect he was having. But he was overly willing to accommodate evil, so this is the root of the problem and joining Wolfram & Hart was the decision point, so this is the real issue.

 

[Taake]

Yes, it is essentially Something Blue.

In which case there are few if no moral implications at all. He didn't delibarately force them to have sex as there is no evidence he knew he could write destinies if he had his sleep removed. There are no issues with consent here. Lorne typically reads destinies but doesn't write them.

I disagree, I'm not necessarily saying that Lorne is morally culpable, but that the situation in itself is morally questionable. If Buffy and Spike had slept together in Something Blue, or if Xander had died from being attacked by demons in that same episode, I don't necessarily think that Willow should have been blamed for it, but what she did - even unintentionally - had very real consequences. The situation is with Lorne is the same, that he didn't know it was going to happen, or that he didn't intend for it to, doesn't mean that there are no consequences to consider. It did happen and indirectly he made people do something they otherwise wouldn't have. The situation is very ethically icky if you ask me.

 

[thetopher]

Willow cast that spell and Lorne took that drug. They are- to an extent- morally culpable because they did something risky to themselves and other people were affected by the consequences.

 

[Ethan Reigns]

The action we see in that episode is that Lorne had had his sleep removed, which may have been the starting point for this "ability". There is no sign that he saw any consequences to anyone other than himself. This is similar to an X-Files show about an elite military unit that had done the same thing - eliminated sleep from their lives. After a while, in peacetime, they regretted the effect it had on them.

 

[gite63]

Yes, it is essentially Something Blue.

I disagree, I'm not necessarily saying that Lorne is morally culpable, but that the situation in itself is morally questionable. If Buffy and Spike had slept together in Something Blue, or if Xander had died from being attacked by demons in that same episode, I don't necessarily think that Willow should have been blamed for it, but what she did - even unintentionally - had very real consequences. The situation is with Lorne is the same, that he didn't know it was going to happen, or that he didn't intend for it to, doesn't mean that there are no consequences to consider. It did happen and indirectly he made people do something they otherwise wouldn't have. The situation is very ethically icky if you ask me.

Willow was being Willow - using magic to solve her sentimental problems. Lorne was exausted and looked for something to help him, a medicine of sorts.

Buffy sleeping with Spike would have had serious consequences, she would feel like she was violated; not the case with Angel and Eve, to whom sex (or having had sex with someone they are not attached to in any way) was not a big deal. Different people, different reactions.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

Angel and Eve, to whom sex (or having had sex with someone they are not attached to in any way) was not a big deal.

You really think being forced, against your will, to have sex with someone you don't like and consider your enemy would be not a big deal?

 

[gite63]

You really think being forced, against your will, to have sex with someone you don't like and consider your enemy would be not a big deal?

Did Angel seem bothered by that? I don't remember. Just like Riley - he didn't feel like he was raped by Faith.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

Did Angel seem bothered by that?.

That's because it was a comedy episode. I dont think the comedy episodes generally had a follow through.

Just like Riley - he didn't feel like he was raped by Faith

Yes he did. He expressed outrage and wished he could get his hands on her again- but not like that.

 

[thetopher]

Angel and Eve were forced against their will (unknowingly) by Lorne and then its glossed over, just like other comedy episodes- BB&B or Something Blue, but they could've made a bigger deal of it.

Riley and Faith is at least addressed in the comics and their feelings are dealt with. What Lorne did never is.
btw- @gite63 it wasn't a personal attack, just a difference of opinion.

 

[Buffy Summers]

Please cut out this karma bickering. If you think someone has personally attacked you, please report it instead of making an attack of your own.

 

[gite63]

That's because it was a comedy episode. I dont think the comedy episodes generally had a follow through.

Yes he did. He expressed outrage and wished he could get his hands on her again- but not like that.

Angel and Eve were forced against their will (unknowingly) by Lorne and then its glossed over, just like other comedy episodes- BB&B or Something Blue, but they could've made a bigger deal of it.

Riley and Faith is at least addressed in the comics and their feelings are dealt with. What Lorne did never is.

Both episodes - SB and LotP - were comedy episodes.

In the first case, Willow caused it - not her intention, but anyway she has - or I think she has to be more accountable, because she was dabbling with magic for personal reasons, a trait of hers; she did it again in TR. Lorne was stressed and need a relief, he really didn't want to harm anyone and he hadn't a record of doing this type of thing.

The consequences: in SB, nothing serious happened - like Buffy having sex with Spike - and Willow got off the hook, because there would be hell to pay otherwise (and that's why it didn't happen).

In LotP, Angel and Eve had sex - but for both of them, it had no serious, moral repercussions (and that happened on the show exactly because there wouldn't be any, not just because it was comedy). Angel was a hundreds-year-old vampire and Eve... was evil, she didn't have any moral qualms about having sex with a strange. They both didn't mind that it happened.

So, yeah, to do something that causes others to do things that they wouldn't in normal circumstances is completely wrong and immoral, but each case their own - that's why the writers avoided something serious happening in SB, but put Angel and Eve having sex.

In the comics, Faith looked for Riley to apologise, and he said that she owned an apology to Buffy, not to him.

 

[Rogueslayer]

I love Lorne and I do not blame him for what happened because he had no I'll will intentions.

However, sex was had that would not have otherwise been had if Lorne wasn't rewriting destiny's. I have a problem with it for the same reason I have a problem with faith and Riley. It lacked I formed consent, and should have been addressed, especially on a show that explores moral ambiguity. This is just my opinion and I can see and understand other points of view.

Lorne isn't perfect. He's made bad decisions and worked for the wrong type of people for the perks. I consider myself a decent person IRL but I have been a huge **** face to people in the last and will more than likely do it again in the future. I think he's a decent demon that's made some bad calls.

I do think Ethan brings up a good point about joining with wolfram and hart is the root of evil in the last season. I think that if the show hadn't ended there we may have seen more repercussions in potential episodes. It's unfortunate that we will never know.

 

[Kana]

Isn't this really the same story as "Something Blue 4ABB09" in Buffy, where Willow casts a spell that makes her words literally come true? The question is whether he knew he was actually creating a reality where his words would be followed literally or whether that was just an unfortunate circumstance. Once Lorne joined Wolfram & Hart, he still had the responsibility for who he was and the decisions he made, but this did not seem to be an explicit decision. There is no evidence that his statements to "mark your territory" or "get a room" were intended literally - in fact they would tend to disrupt the party, so I doubt he knew what effect he was having. But he was overly willing to accommodate evil, so this is the root of the problem and joining Wolfram & Hart was the decision point, so this is the real issue.

Absolutely, and this is why we need to frame the argument specifically. The episode itself is crap, but it highlights Lorne's faux moral relativism, which I agree is the larger issue.

I disagree, I'm not necessarily saying that Lorne is morally culpable, but that the situation in itself is morally questionable. If Buffy and Spike had slept together in Something Blue, or if Xander had died from being attacked by demons in that same episode, I don't necessarily think that Willow should have been blamed for it, but what she did - even unintentionally - had very real consequences.

You see I don't really think morality has a lot of meaning without moral responsibility. At best I suppose you could argue that nothing from W&H comes for free but Lorne wouldn't have any idea that it could have consequences for anyone else.

As for the consequences of said event, this would depend on how both felt about the situation. The reason this is distinct from what Faith did to Riley is because there is no real perpetrator here, so it falls more upon how traumatized Angel and Eve felt. No one disregarded anyone elses consent so if Eve and Angel were not really bothered by it, I don't think it needs to be addressed in the same way that if Xander had been killed for example.