How Buffy put the ‘Christ’ back into “Christ, this show can’t stand Christianity”

Buffy Summers said:
I think here you're more likely to see negative commentary on tv about priests than positive.
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That's interesting. I think here there's more fear of offending organised religion, it does seem like there's more censorship when it comes to certain taboos. Not that I agree with censorship at all. Everyone should have freedom of speech and freedom to be offended at the same time. 😀
 
cryptwarmer said:
Do we know which faith/tradition the monks who created Dawn were?
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If it's not alright stated it's very heavily implied they were Christian along with the Knights of Byzantium (though obviously they had different feelings about how to deal with the problem). Speaking of which, the Knights of Byzantium while on the wrong side (and also the only humans Buffy kills if I recall correctly) weren't portrayed as evil as such. They were aiming for the greater good and arguably were correct in that; in the brief time the Glory's portal was opened how many innocents died? Some demons\monsters crossed over at least.

Caleb seems to be the standard perversion of something stereotypically seen as good and pure. The priest losing his faith is a trope in media these days.

I wouldn't say the show was against Christianity but I can see why some could see it as such (or against religion in general as most of the overtly religious or cult-like characters are evil). Not discussing why holy water and the cross are effective could be considered hiding from the Christian overtones but then they don't explain why wood hurts vampires so much more than other materials so I don't see it as exceptional.
Also; hi guys. Good to find people to talk to about Buffy and Angel.
 
cryptwarmer
cryptwarmer
Hi, welcome to Sunnydale!
Ethan Reigns
Ethan Reigns
Not Buffy's first kill - that was the zookeeper in "The Pack". BTW welcome!
Thank you for posting this @Buffy Summers. I love discussing articles.

Buffy Summers said:

If you’ve made it this far, I’m going to assume that you’re at least generally familiar with the subject matter ofBuffy the Vampire Slayer. The title character spends her free time fighting vampires and demons as a sort of “chosen one”, trying to prevent the opening of a portal to hell (or “a” hell). Buffy and her allies use, among other tools, crosses and holy water to defend themselves against their supernatural and evil foes, despite the fact that none of them demonstrate or subscribe to Christian faith. Buffy herself admits that she’s not certain if God even exists, and nobody seems sure why their arsenal is so effective against the undead, despite the abundance of obviously Christian symbols.
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So for purposes of this discussion, let's say that at this point in the story, Buffy is agnostic. Latter, she believe she was in Heaven, so it stand to reason she does develop faith as she ages. Thoughts?

This trend of willful neglect to the Christian influence in the show’s world takes a far more negative turn when Caleb is introduced. Caleb is the highest profile character with a significant link of Christianity (his history as a priest), we are reminded of this by his clothing (that of a Catholic Priest), and he just so happens to be a vicious sociopath and right hand of the First Evil. The show takes a sudden turn from complete neglect of the fact that Christianity is a real thing in the world, to introducing the character with the most Christian influence as a serial killer who serves the ultimate “big bad guy”.
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I think Caleb represents how Joss feels about Christianity in general, and yeah it's not good.

The sort of inconsistency required to appropriate Christian relics as symbols of power to fight evil, but to refuse to acknowledge Christianity except as a loosely referenced past to a psychopathic antagonist is a significant world-building error. It reeks of the writer allowing their own bias against Christianity to bleed into their work in a way that is inorganic to the subject matter.
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I don't know if I agree with this. It's not that God doesn't exist in the Buffyserve, it's just that he's never shown or proved.

Perhaps the writer is unaware of this, or it’s done intentionally as a way to avert controversy or to pander to an audience the writer/producer anticipates is largely non-Christian, but regardless of the reasoning, it shows a significant flaw in the development of this modern fantasy setting. Again, I don’t require that a modern fantasy setting validate Christianity, but to appropriate symbols and lore from Christian belief as symbols of power and then invalidate the faith and associate it exclusively with the bad guys is something I cry foul at.

Tune in next week for my look at Christian influence and portrayal in The Dresden Files. Maybe in two weeks. Actually, let’s just play it by ear. Don’t call us, we’ll call you.
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Source: The Work Print
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Doesn't the writer just contradict himself here?
 
No, they didn't. They are saying if you use the symbols and lore then they take issue with in the same show saying Christianity is 100% bad.
 
Joan the Vampire Slayer said:
Doesn't the writer just contradict himself here?
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I dont think so.. the point they were making was

"to appropriate symbols and lore from Christian belief as symbols of power and then invalidate the faith and associate it exclusively with the bad guys is something I cry foul at"

They were saying they dont think you HAVE to incorporate the symbols etc into the stories, but if/when you do then dont devalue it (specifically by only having the 'bad guy' be the one to have 'faith')
 
"Tarnis, 12th century. One of the founders of the monks of the order of Dagon.Their sole purpose appears to have been as protectors of the key. The key is not directly described in any known literature, but all research indicates an energy matrix vibrating at a dimensional frequency beyond normal human perception. The monks possessed the ability to transform energy, bend reality. They started work. But the Council ... has suggested ... to us that they were interrupted. Presumably by ... Glory. They obviously did manage to accomplish the task. They had to be certain the Slayer would protect it with her life. So they sent the key to her ... in human form. In the form of a sister.

That's pretty much all the information they give - and I can't see how anyone could see these guys as Christian because...no Christ. There are monks in other religions.

Welcome, Fenrir!
 
Joan the Vampire Slayer said:
So for purposes of this discussion, let's say that at this point in the story, Buffy is agnostic. Latter, she believe she was in Heaven, so it stand to reason she does develop faith as she ages. Thoughts?
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She specifically said she knew nothing about dimensions - I think heaven was used more as the opposite of a hell dimension. All I can say is that there are all sorts of afterlife scenarios in all sorts of religions. Buddhist Nirvana sounds very like what she talks about and Buddhism is a 'religion' that has no god.
 
Buffy Summers said:
Based on their appearance and the time period and location, I think it's safe to say that they are a Christian sect.
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Other than the fact that there is no belief in Christ, they are guarding a ball of energy, and brown robes are petty ubiquitous. This is not our reality, or our history. Why would all monks be consider Christian when even in our world they aren't all Christian?
 
Because in the twelfth century, it is highly unlikely that in the area of the Czech Republic you are going to find another religion's monks wearing friar's robes and having bowl cuts. Add in the anti-demon focus... I'm just saying the logical assumption is they are Christian.
 
Buffy Summers said:
Because in the twelfth century, it is highly unlikely that in the area of the Czech Republic you are going to find another religion's monks wearing friar's robes and having bowl cuts. Add in the anti-demon focus... I'm just saying the logical assumption is they are Christian.
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In our reality. But we also didn't have orbs of energy vibrating at transdimensional frequencies in our reality. Or demons, vampires, and witches who could destroy pagan temples outside midsize CA towns.

If we are simply going on clothing style, and a normal history, then should we throw in Angelus's nun fetish as anti-Christian, because that did actually have something to do with an established Christian religion?

I think we are dealing with archetypes.
 
Buffy Summers said:
Weren't we just trying to decide if the order of Dagon was Christian or not?
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Well, yeah - but the entire history given in the show makes no mention of anything related to Christ or Christianity. That was why I can't see them as Christian. They are a group that protects a mystical ball of energy!
 
bespangeled said:
That's pretty much all the information they give - and I can't see how anyone could see these guys as Christian because...no Christ. There are monks in other religions.
Welcome, Fenrir!
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Apologies for the delay in my reply.

As far as I can tell, you are correct. While I would say the fact that the monks are dressed as the archetypal Christian monk lends some credence to the theory that they are Christian there is no further evidence towards it. Glory says that one of them is a "holy man" but that's it from what I remember. Other than Glory talking about "religious types" in regards to a Knight of Byzantium in Blood Ties (season 5 episode 13) which doesn't mean a great deal. I think the main reason people think of them as Christian are due to the costume they wear as well as the Knights of Byzantium being almost certainly Christian. I'm pretty sure I assumed the monks were Christian at least partially due to the Knights of Byzantium. While my natural inclination is to think of the monks as Christian there is little evidence to suggest it.

Thanks for the welcome.

Quick question; is there a way to respond to someone who commented on your post (as in in the little box underneath it)?
 
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