How canon is season 8 to you?

[zobothehobo]

I feel like a lot of the hate season 8 gets is because it's taken too seriously as cannon by a lot of people. IMO, it's a fic that's as close to cannon as we're going to get... it's cannon technically because it's organized by Joss... but it's a fic because it's not REALLY cannon. It's what COULD have happened... maybe if you will what Joss thinks would have happened IF the story had continued. Because I still view the show and overall story ending with Chosen, I really don't think season 8 was a slap in the face and I can enjoy it a lot more keeping in mind it's NOT the show I love so much. So how cannon do you consider season 8? And do you think that contributes to whether you like it or not?

 

[PrincessBuffy16]

I don't hate seeason 8, at all, and I really don't understand all the hate.. and I seriously doubt people would hate it *that* much if the same story was done on the show.. it would be interesting. Now, I don't take season 8 too seriously. Chosen is still the ending for me, but I enjoy reading season 8. Because it's fun. Because it's Buffy.

 

[Skytteflickan88]

To me, if the creator calls something canon, it's canon to me. Comparing it to fanfiction (I assume you mean fanfiction when you say "fic") is not something I consider. To me, that would be "fanon", when a fan decides what he/she thinks is canon. (No offense, you can think whatever you want, not my business).

But, since Joss said that if he makes a Buffy movie, he would ignore season 8, it's not as canon as the show (btw, that's something he should have said in the same breath he said season 8 was canon the first time around, since a lot of fans got upset when he said he'd ignore season 8 if a movie was made).

If I didn't think season 8 wasn't canon, I wouldn't dislike the parts I dislike as much. I simply wouldn't care as much. But the parts I love about season 8, I'm glad are "true", are canon, since some parts I really think adds to the characters. For example, if Dawn/Xander's relationship was non-canon, I'd think that sucks, because it's a good thing.

 

[The Unspoken]

Maybe this type of discussion keeps popping up because season 8 IS canon and a lot of people simply wish it wasn't?

 

[Washburne]

I don't get how people can deny that it's canon. I get why people don't want it to be but sorry, your wish doesn't change the meaning of the word.

With that said I don't see the comics as the exact same at the show. But it's definitely Buffy canon.

Something being canon or not hasn't got the slightest thing to do with if I enjoy something or not. I enjoy what I enjoy, canon or not. I'm more likely to look up things that are canon though.

 

[Skytteflickan88]

I don't get how people can deny that it's canon. I get why people don't want it to be but sorry, your wish doesn't change the meaning of the word.

I didn't know there was a definite meaning of the word. I assumed that's why everyone can argue what's canon or not, because there's no clear definition.

 

[Tranquillity]

It's canon to me. Joss says it is and until he says different I will view it as such.

 

[sylvanscribe]

It's crack fic. Unfortunately it is crack fic written by the people responsible for Buffy. It's canon and crack fic rolled in one, a sure sign that it's time for Joss and company to pass the royal scepter to someone else.

 

[StarSlayer]

I somewhat view it as canon only because it's through comics. For me, "Buffy the Vampire Slayer" really ended with "Chosen" because the TV show ended there. I think years from now, when people look back at BtVS, they'll remember the TV show more so than the comics because the show made Buffy popular and memorable, especially amongst fans. If some are interested in the continuation of the story, then that's where the comics come into play.

 

[AndrewCrossett]

It's 100% canon, because Joss says it is. Canon is defined by the creator, not by the readers.

 

[sosa lola]

I can't understand the idea of NOT taking S8 too seriously. Do we choose what's canon now? I mean, hey, I think Empty Places is fanfic. It never happened. Buffy was never kicked out. I'm not going to take it seriously. Or better yet, S7 as a whole is one crack fic that NEVER happened. Spike never came back. And Xander took care of Willow instead of sending her to London. Giles remained in Sunnydale and Xander and Buffy got married. That's my canon. That's what I want to happen. S7 is just fanfic, you know. I think now I can enjoy S7 because I don't take it seriously.

S8 should be taken seriously, because it's canon. Just because you hate it, you can't discount it. Or I'll discount S7. Because I hate it, too. And I think Empty Places/Touched are crackfics written by a Spuffy fan.

What does Joss' fanfic mean anyway? He's the creator. They're his own characters. It's his own story. It's disrespectable to say the show's creator is writing fanfic with his characters. What we write is fanfic. Because we're the fans. What he writes is canon.

It’s not something you or I decide. It's Joss' decision. And if he says S8 is canon. Then it is. 100% canon.

 

[Skytteflickan88]

It's not something you or I decide. It's Joss' decision. And if he says S8 is canon. Then it is. 100% canon.

But the thing is, Joss said himself that it's canon as long as he doesn't make a movie. Since he doesn't seem to think season 8 is as canon as the show, there's room for interpretation in the fandom.

I'm not saying it's not canon, I do think it is, but it's not 100 per cent canon.

To me.

 

[sosa lola]

But the thing is, Joss said himself that it's canon as long as he doesn't make a movie. Since he doesn't seem to think season 8 is as canon as the show, there's room for interpretation in the fandom.

I'm not saying it's not canon, I do think it is, but it's not 100 per cent canon.

To me.

Buffy being in Italy was canon until Joss changed it. So, how creditable are the shows? I don't think Joss would dismiss the comics at all after fans invested money, passion and spent hours discussing them. Question and Answer sessions with the editor and artist were held every month. S8 recently won an award. And Joss is excited for S9, confessing the mistakes he'd done with S8 and trying to amend them in S9.

The quote was said years ago. Joss possibly changed his mind after fans became too engaged in them.

 

[Skytteflickan88]

You got a point about the show being "adaptable" in future comics, but I think there's a difference between changing small things, like Warren's death and Buffy in Italy, and being ready to ignore a entire season.

I do hope you're right and that he thinks differently now. Not that I think we'll ever get a Buffy movie, so it's kind of pointless to worry about.

 

[Icarium]

Canon enough to make me think Joss has lost all of his talent. Oh, wait, S7 already did that. Well, let's just say S8 confirmed my suspicions. I am starting to suspect Joss can't write a half decent story arc without Greenwalt or Minear around.

S8 should be taken seriously, because it's canon. Just because you hate it, you can't discount it.

Of course you can. Whether anyone would agree is a different matter.

What does Joss' fanfic mean anyway? He's the creator. They're his own characters. It's his own story. It's disrespectable to say the show's creator is writing fanfic with his characters. What we write is fanfic. Because we're the fans. What he writes is canon.

Well, S8 has the quality of bad crack fic, so I think it's an apt description. Mind you, I think the same applies to S6-7.

 

[Abby27]

It's funny because I am imagining what if s6 was released as a comic book, how many people would fight against it being canon.

I mean, it really is up to you. I mean, we are dealing with a fictional universe and if the creator of that universe (Joss) says that s8 is canon in that universe, then by definition I would say it is. But heck, if you don't want to accept it, you don't have to! 😛 I mean, that's why we have fic crossing Fuffy and Wangel. Were those relationships canon in the show? No, but you can interpret their interactions however you want and decide what you like, and what you see potential for.

It's hard because comic books and TV are such different mediums. TV is more concrete, you have real person portraying the character, with voice inflections and subtle gestures that make that character feel alive. Now, I'm not really a comic person, so not to knock it, but to me, it's lacking that "realness." With no audio accompaniment or subtle inflections that one notices from a real person that can't be transmitted through a comic...it seem a little less....credible? Maybe just less compared to the TV show. And since season 8 is a new chapter in the Buffyverse with all the slayers, combined with a new medium in which it is released, plus them changing things from the past (Buffy in Rome and Warren) it just doesn't mesh well with what we see as canon. So, I think it's natural we want to just say, "Ehhh...no." But if you can follow it all through, the story is still all from Joss.

I hope that was beneficial to this discussion.

 

[Washburne]

Is the show fan fic or at least none canon? Joss changed his original story. Still the show pics up after the movie doesn't it? At least partially. So is the story from the Buffy movie canon or not? That many things failed with the movie doesn't change Joss's story. Can we just dismiss something that doesn't fit into what we want?

Is Serenity, the movie canon? It changed a few things from Firefly. Here it's impossible to ignore certain seasons since there is, you know, just one if that. How many things from Btvs changed since it fitted with the new story they were writing/telling? You all probably know more than a few things that didn't fit into what happened or were said in earlier episodes. Which one isn't canon if changes can't be made? No wait, small things were ok. My bad. Or? Who make the distinction between the small and big things?

Ok I had some train of thought at some point. By now I've probably just mixed some thoughts together and made no sense at all.

 

[sosa lola]

I do hope you're right and that he thinks differently now. Not that I think we'll ever get a Buffy movie, so it's kind of pointless to worry about.

He seems very excited about S9, and spologizes about what went wrong in S8. I think that shows how interested he is in the project and won't dismiss it.

I never thought about a BtVS movie that continues the story. Always knew it'll never happen. Especially now what with the actors being too old, especially the vampires.

 

[Angelic Slayer]

Personally I consider Season 8 to be 100% canon. Since Joss Whedon has been involved in its creation, planning and writing the whole way I consider it to be a continuation of the series just as legitimate as another TV season would have been. If they were to ever bring back the franchise on TV/Movie I would even hope that they would take the comics into consideration for continuity's sake.

I didn't like everything that happened in the comics, but after reading them again I can understand some of the characters' actions a little better. And I think that this is exactly how the Scoobies would have ended up a few (months? years?) after Chosen aired. The characters (for the most part) are written with dialogue spot-on with the show, and I found that the comics even read like a TV show in their story structure. Even though the Twilight stuff was a little more "sci-fi" than we're used to dealing with in the Buffyverse, I don't see any reason to discount the season as a part of the BTVS story. I guess for me, the series just reminds me *exactly* of the show I enjoyed watching all those years. So I had never even questioned that other folks might not consider it to be official "canon". The thought just never crossed my mind!


Then again if you are going to not see it as canon, you have a good way of looking at it Zobo. I can definitely understand your point in that it's one exploration in what *could* have happened to the Scooby Gang. It's not how I had looked at the show, but I can certainly see why you would regard the comics that way.

 

[Abby27]

Is the show fan fic or at least none canon? Joss changed his original story. Still the show pics up after the movie doesn't it? At least partially. So is the story from the Buffy movie canon or not? That many things failed with the movie doesn't change Joss's story. Can we just dismiss something that doesn't fit into what we want?

I think the BtVS movie is a first draft of sorts. It was a completely "revamped" (heh) for the show. And there were some significant changes to be made to make the TV show how Joss wanted it originally. In the show the gym was burned down, she was a sophomore, and vamps can't fly (contrary to the movie). The TV show was a new start - it never stated to be a continuation of the movie, even though there is a loose continuation, it was different enough where you can look at the movie and see that there are 2 separate things. Joss said, "Ok, the movie isn't how I wanted it at all. Let's start over, move her to Sunnydale and change some things." So I see the movie as a good idea of what happened, but if we are speaking in terms of canon (having the definition of canon be what Joss deems correct, and not necessarily what we are shown). Obviously, the movie was a precursor but Joss himself said he didn't accomplish what he wanted to accomplish with it so it's not necessarily the exact history for the show.

Season 8 is supposed to be a season 8. Not a revamped version of Buffy, not a "here's what could have happened" or a new world for Buffy to play in. It's not Joss saying, "We're going to change some things cause I wanna!" It is being sold as the continuation of the series as season 7 succeeded 6 and so on and so forth. And because there are so many differences between the show with seasons 1-7 and the season 8 comic, it's a hard pill to shallow for some.