How canon is season 8 to you?

[Icarium]

He seems very excited about S9, and spologizes about what went wrong in S8. I think that shows how interested he is in the project and won't dismiss it.

To play devil's advocate, Joss couldn't really say "Well folks, I am just milking the series for money, so deal with it". Of course he would claim to be excited about S9. To me his writing hints very clearly that he is anything but excited as he just keeps rehashing old storylines, only in a much sillier fashion. Or maybe he can't write anything better these days...

 

[GrrArghx]

It is canon. Joss says so.

However, personally, the comics don't affect me much. For some reason my brain doesn't make the correlation that this is actually our Buffy/Angelverse so I don't have really strong feelings about what happens in them.

That's not to say, I don't have feelings about them, because I do. & I'm looking forward to S9. I'm just saying they don't feel as "real" to me as the TV show but even then, I know they're canon and I don't try to say otherwise.

 

[zobothehobo]

What does Joss' fanfic mean anyway? He's the creator. They're his own characters. It's his own story. It's disrespectable to say the show's creator is writing fanfic with his characters. What we write is fanfic. Because we're the fans. What he writes is canon.

I'm not being disrespectful here. I'm not saying season 8 IS fanfic. I meant it's LIKE fanfic. Because it's not the show and it's what could or would have happened if the story continued in Joss' eyes.

S8 should be taken seriously, because it's canon. Just because you hate it, you can't discount it. Or I'll discount S7. Because I hate it, too. And I think Empty Places/Touched are crackfics written by a Spuffy fan.

I don't hate season 8 though so I'm not discounting it because I hate it. Quite the contrary... I'm one of the few fans who would dare say I love it. I have more than enjoyed season 8 and I'm WAY more than giddy for season 9. I'm not discrediting it or saying this because I don't like it. But I think because I never thought of the comics as a continuation of the show and story but rather a suggestion and exploration of what could/would have happened I enjoyed them a lot more.

 

[Skytteflickan88]

Is the show fan fic or at least none canon? Joss changed his original story. Still the show pics up after the movie doesn't it? At least partially. So is the story from the Buffy movie canon or not? That many things failed with the movie doesn't change Joss's story. Can we just dismiss something that doesn't fit into what we want?

I don't think Joss counts that movie as canon. Not in the way of "what happened in that exact scene in the movie is how it happened, 100 per cent accurate". More like the general story line is true and canon, or at least what's showned on the show (Merrick, Buffy comicng from LA, burning down the gym, etc etc).

I don't have a good source on this though, what Joss thinks of the movie.

---------- Post added at 08:39 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:25 PM ----------

To play devil's advocate, Joss couldn't really say "Well folks, I am just milking the series for money, so deal with it". Of course he would claim to be excited about S9. To me his writing hints very clearly that he is anything but excited as he just keeps rehashing old storylines, only in a much sillier fashion. Or maybe he can't write anything better these days...

I'm seeing the situation as glass half full. He says he's excited, I believe him. To me, it seems like going back to a project this way is risky. In case season 8 had been a complete failure, his career might have suffered, and he would have lost, not made money. So I think he did it because a)he thought he could succed and b)because he thought it was worth the risk.

Of course, I don't know him, and your guess is as good as mine on what goes on inside his head. I just prefer to be positive.

And I'm not seeing the old storylines you're talking about (except that the Buffy/Spike/Angel drama got a quick re-visit, and Spike lurking about). People's mayor complaint wit season 8 seems to be that it's too much new stuff, too fast.

 

[Icarium]

And I'm not seeing the old storylines you're talking about (except that the Buffy/Spike/Angel drama got a quick re-visit, and Spike lurking about).

You don't? How about Angel being possessed by Twilight? Quite reminiscent of him being without a soul and even more so of Cordelia's arc in AtS S4, right down to the birth of a new powerful being who is manipulating the events so that said birth could happen. Not to mention the many shorter possession storylines like The Pack. Angel being deceived by someone claiming to know the future and deciding he needs to take drastic actions for the greater good? Almost the same as Wesley's arc in AtS S3. Buffy and Angel have sex and this almost ends the world? Gee, I wonder where we have seen that plot line. Ditto for yet another of Xander's girlfriends dying. Dracula being shoehorned into the story in the crudest fashion possible or The Master and Warren returning only to be discarded without having done anything important also added to the feeling that Joss can't come up with anything new. At least not anything new that made sense because "the universe" having a personality was new. 🙂

 

[goodbyetonight]

I personally like to pretend it doesn't exist at this point. 🙂

 

[Skytteflickan88]

You don't? How about Angel being possessed by Twilight? Quite reminiscent of him being without a soul and even more so of Cordelia's arc in AtS S4, right down to the birth of a new powerful being who is manipulating the events so that said birth could happen. Not to mention the many shorter possession storylines like The Pack. Angel being deceived by someone claiming to know the future and deciding he needs to take drastic actions for the greater good? Almost the same as Wesley's arc in AtS S3. Buffy and Angel have sex and this almost ends the world? Gee, I wonder where we have seen that plot line. Ditto for yet another of Xander's girlfriends dying. Dracula being shoehorned into the story in the crudest fashion possible or The Master and Warren returning only to be discarded without having done anything important also added to the feeling that Joss can't come up with anything new. At least not anything new that made sense because "the universe" having a personality was new. 🙂

I agree with that some things you mentioned are history repeating itself, but other things I think are just similar, or different enough to be their own storylines. For example, Buffy & Angel having sex didn't end the world in season 2, the events after the sex lead to that. And I dislike Dracula very much but he was very useful in Wolves at the Gate, my favorite arc. I don't think that was a old storylines used at all. I actually like that old characters are brought back, if they're given a decent storyline.

The old "repeats" that bother me are The Master(his death was perfect), Warren(he should have remained dead, since the First could take his shape. Amy could have been all evil without him), Twilight manipluating the world around it (like Jasmine, making it seem like all that happened in the shows wasn't by accident) and Angel taking direction from "a greater good source" without realizing it's BS(like Wesley, who actually had a better excuse to believe in the propechy). But I think even those repeats are forgiveable.

Now, several other things on your list I don't like, but not because they're repeats.

If I had disliked season 8 more in general, maybe I'd be more inclined to agree with you. Now I just see the similarities in a different light.

 

[Spikefan31]

Not very to not at all.

 

[The Ferg]

To me, it's just kind of the next step for Buffy. Like first she had her high school seasons (S1-3), then college seasons (S4-5), then grown-up seasons (S6-7), and now... Season 8. I completely think that it's canon. It obviously is because Joss says so. However, I do find it a little hard to define Buffy (the series) as Seasons 1-8(9?). I see it more as: "Buffy the Vampire Slayer: Season 1-7 + 8." If that makes sense at all to anyone but me and my sleep-deprived mind.

 

[AndrewCrossett]

The words "canon" and "non-canon" are not simply synonyms for "I like it" and "I don't like it."

That's not what those words mean.

"Canon" means that the storyteller (in this case, Joss) considers this story part of the "reality" of his world. These are the things that "really" happened, and that will be reflected in the story in the future.

It has nothing to do with the quality of the story, or with what the reader/listener thinks of it. This is not an interactive story. Our only input is to like it, or not.

 

[InsaneMystic]

"Canon" means that the storyteller (in this case, Joss) considers this story part of the "reality" of his world. These are the things that "really" happened, and that will be reflected in the story in the future.

This.

I dearly, dearly wish S8 wasn't canon, but it irrefutably is, because Joss says so - and he's the only person in the world who can make the choice "canon or not", even though, IMO, he's not chooosing wisely anymore...

 

[Skytteflickan88]

Is there a definite meaning of the word canon? It seems like people are disagreeing on what it means.

 

[AndrewCrossett]

In the Buffyverse, "canon" means:

1. Anything written or plotted by Joss Whedon;
2. Anything written under his supervision as Executive Producer; and
3. Anything else specifically declared by him to be canon.

 

[Buffyverse Fan]

I feel like a lot of the hate season 8 gets is because it's taken too seriously as cannon by a lot of people. IMO, it's a fic that's as close to cannon as we're going to get... it's cannon technically because it's organized by Joss... but it's a fic because it's not REALLY cannon. It's what COULD have happened... maybe if you will what Joss thinks would have happened IF the story had continued. Because I still view the show and overall story ending with Chosen, I really don't think season 8 was a slap in the face and I can enjoy it a lot more keeping in mind it's NOT the show I love so much. So how cannon do you consider season 8? And do you think that contributes to whether you like it or not?

I see it as canon, don't hate it, but find it vastly less... everything.

There was always suspension of disbelief, but S8 took it too far. Real vampires becoming popular is just moronic. In a world where slight skin pigmentation differences create centuries of strife, we're supposed to believe malevolent beings who kill humans to survive would be embraced?

Then there's Angel, who was pretty much picked up from his BS3 appearance, and didn't reflect an ounce of the 5 and a half years of character growth Joss produced himself. BS8's Angel was just a terrible character, both terrible morally, and poorly written.

Aside from Xander, Faith, and Giles, none of the characters had an ounce of the heart they did on television, and then Xander became involved with Dawn which was just bizarre (I hear Nick Brendon didn't like it either).

Buffy's "experimentation" was also pretty bad imo. Joss' personal issues with homosexuality aside, Buffy as a character was borderline prejudiced when finding out about Willow dating Tara, that's one heck of a leap! (Buffy: "Judgmental? If I was anymore open-minded about the choices you two make my whole brain would fall out!")

Overall, I much preferred Angel: After the Fall. The only part that bothered me was how Wes is essentially suffering eternal damnation because of Angel's mistakes. I always pictured him resurrecting, since Joss said Wes would return if AS6 was picked up.

 

[Skytteflickan88]

In the Buffyverse, "canon" means:

1. Anything written or plotted by Joss Whedon;
2. Anything written under his supervision as Executive Producer; and
3. Anything else specifically declared by him to be canon.

No offense, but that's a definition created by consensu, one that is up to debate. A definition I partly agree on (I just go by what he has said is canon) but I was wondering if there was a independent definition, one that wasn't created by Buffy fans. That's in a dictionary or something.

People keep saying "This is canon." as if there's definite definition of it.

---------- Post added at 10:59 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:40 AM ----------

There was always suspension of disbelief, but S8 took it too far. Real vampires becoming popular is just moronic. In a world where slight skin pigmentation differences create centuries of strife, we're supposed to believe malevolent beings who kill humans to survive would be embraced?

I can actually see why this happens.

I started a thread about it here https://www.buffy-boards.com/showthread.php?p=919458#post919458

Buffy's "experimentation" was also pretty bad imo. Joss' personal issues with homosexuality aside, Buffy as a character was borderline prejudiced when finding out about Willow dating Tara, that's one heck of a leap! (Buffy: "Judgmental? If I was anymore open-minded about the choices you two make my whole brain would fall out!")

That's not fair. Buffy was freaked out ONCE, way before that scene you're quoting (which might not even be about the gayness, just Willow doing spells she can't handle), and after that has shown nothing but support and awww-feelings when it comes to Willow and Tara. For example, in late season 6, just before the bullet, she smiles when she sees Willow & Tara together. In season 7, she pokes fun at Willow over Kennedy, twice, in a very non-judgemental way, the ways friends do.

Not that I'm saying that you're saying she's a homophobe, but the "borderline prejudice" seems to have passed right away. Not saying it makes her gay because she's open-minded, just saying that there was nothing implying that she was against experimenting.

 

[xaphania]

Well, Wikipedia has an entry on canon, but wiki is not always the most reliable source.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canon_(fiction)

And of course you've got the nicely tongue-in-cheek Fandom Wank definition.

http://wiki.fandomwank.com/index.php/Canon

 

[AndrewCrossett]

The word "canon" was originally used to refer to those books that were considered an official part of the Bible. As opposed to "Apocrypha," which were books written along similar lines but not considered to be divinely inspired.

Fandom borrowed the term to refer to the stuff that was endorsed by "God"... that is, the creator of the show. In some fandoms... Star Trek and Star Wars, for example... it's hard to figure out what's canon and what isn't, because the creators themselves were willing to change stuff around without warning in order to suit whatever story they wanted to tell at any given time. In other fandoms, it's easy... Harry Potter canon is anything written by J.K. Rowling, period.

In Whedon fandom, the word describes stuff that is part of Joss's story... stuff that would be included if he himself were to sit down and write a comprehensive history of the Buffyverse. Apart from that is a) stuff written under license from Fox without any involvement from Joss, and b) fanfic. The licensed stuff is legal and official from Fox's viewpoint, but Joss seldom even bothers to read it and certainly isn't going to base his own work on it.

So when fans say "I don't consider season 8 to be canon" when they really mean "I hate season 8 and don't consider it to be reality when I think about the Buffyverse," it's a misuse of the term. It's like saying "I hate the Green Bay Packers, so I consider them not to have won the Superbowl."

But I guess if people are determined to use a word a certain way, there's really nothing that can be done to stop them, short of jumping into every thread and delivering a Canon Lecture like a finger-shaking schoolmarm. All I can control is what "canon" means when I use the word.

 

[Skytteflickan88]

In Whedon fandom, the word describes stuff that is part of Joss's story... stuff that would be included if he himself were to sit down and write a comprehensive history of the Buffyverse. Apart from that is a) stuff written under license from Fox without any involvement from Joss, and b) fanfic. The licensed stuff is legal and official from Fox's viewpoint, but Joss seldom even bothers to read it and certainly isn't going to base his own work on it.

What about c)stuff written/co-plotted/produced by Joss that he may or may not consider canon? And a option not that relevant in this discussion d)stories not written by him that have events/characters in them that are re-used in canon stories, making them maybe-canon until Joss says otherwise.

Like The Origin and Long Night's Journey.

Canon is fussy, it's all I'm saying. There's no definite meaning.

 

[AndrewCrossett]

What about c)stuff written/co-plotted/produced by Joss that he may or may not consider canon? And a option not that relevant in this discussion d)stories not written by him that have events/characters in them that are re-used in canon stories, making them maybe-canon until Joss says otherwise.

Like The Origin and Long Night's Journey.

Canon is fussy, it's all I'm saying. There's no definite meaning.

Joss is free to declare his own stuff non-canon if he wants. He wrote Long Night's Journey, but since it contradicts established canon I assume he meant it to be either non-canon, or alternate timeline. The Origin can be considered canon because a) it was based directly on Joss's own screenplay, and b) he said it was canon.

Your option d) I assume is referring mainly to Brian Lynch's Spike: Asylum and Shadow Puppets stories. Those are a gray area because they're heavily references in canon stories... it's hard to explain Betta George or the direct references to Mosaic and Beck in AtF if Spike: Asylum never happened in canon. While I don't consider it strictly canon because Joss had no hand in creating it, you can say that it's equivalent to canon because Joss is aware of it, is including it in his own story, and is pretty much guaranteed never to contradict it. In fact, that's why I include Asylum in my Whedonverse character index, which includes only canon sources.

Canon can be fussy... but in this case (season 8), it's not. Joss supervised the whole thing, wrote parts of it, and explicitly called it canon. That puts it in the "no doubt" category, the same as the TV show.

 

[Moscow Watcher]

Just wait when/if the movie without Joss will be made. That's when the deficition of canon will become REALLY fuzzy. 🙂