How did you feel about the way Riley left?

[Robb Stark]

Riley is a character who has really grown on my since I've re-watched the series. I was watching a youtube video of Riley and Buffy's breakup which I thought was really good (I included the link below) and that got me thinking a bit further about the way Riley left Buffy and the show. What did you think about it?

I was always a little indifferent to it, simply because I used to not care much for Riley, but reflecting back upon it now, I like it. Quite a bit actually. Now, I'm not saying Buffy was at fault or anything for why her and Riley fell apart, because she wasn't, but I kind of liked the message it had. That even with everything going on with her and Riley, he was a good guy. He was good for her. And ultimately, she couldn't figure that out until it was too late. I don't think it's a sexist message or anything like that (which is a criticism I've heard before and frankly, don't really understand). It was kind of a "you don't know what you've got till' it's gone" kind of feeling.

Anyways, what did you guys think?

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZTh9CLCZTT4"]uffy and [R]iley: It Ends Tonight - YouTube[/ame]

 

[EffyStonem]

Ugh, words cannot describe how much I loathe the way in which Riley leaves. In fact, the whole Buffy/Riley relationship is a bit messed up but I’ll just focus on the break up.

Riley cheats on and sexually undermines Buffy and then turns around and blames it (and all their problems) solely on her. It's all about the fact that she wasn't open with him or wouldn't coddle him while her mother was dying, not that fact that he's a misogynistic ass. I like Riley, but he has internalised some really poisonous and misogynistic crap. Then he gives her an ultimatum (I loathe ultimatums, they are one of the worst kinds of power plays) and she, rightfully, has had enough of his tantrums and walks away.

Enter Xander (in what I consider one of his lowest moments) who basically shames Buffy into believing that everything that went wrong in her and Riley’s relationship was entirely her fault – and what’s worse is she swallows all that crap and goes running after Riley, leaving her spine back with Xander. It’s gross and really undermines Buffy as a feminist icon – running after a guy who is threatened by your strength, who blames everything on you and who sexually undermines you? Not good.

The sexism/misogyny (for me) is that Riley was sexually undermining Buffy by receving suck-jobs from vampires and he then turns around and blames her for his actions (much like an abuser blames their victim "You made me hit you, if you loved me more I wouldn't do this etc."), before issuing her with an ultimatum, which allows him to leave guilt-free while Buffy shoulders guilt that she never should have had. Buffy is forced to believe that it was solely her actions that caused her boyfriend to treat her badly, a mind frame many abuse victims end up with. She is shamed for “not being what Riley needs” and pushed into believing that she alone is to blame for everything that went wrong in her and Riley’s relationship.

 

[Blaze]

EffyStonem pretty much already said everything I wanted to say. Riley was a fool. There's so many instances where he displays everything I hate in a guy. I was glad he finally left.

 

[YummySushiPJs]

Ultimatums are rarely the correct thing to do, I can't say I approve of Riley issuing Buffy with that but at the end of the day it boils down to what Xander says and it is true...

If you really love someone and they are about to leave, forget everything that's been said and done, if you love them and want them to stay then tell them! do you really sit back and let them go because you don't like ultimatums? What kind of logic is that?

 

[Blaze]

Ultimatums are rarely the correct thing to do, I can't say I approve of Riley issuing Buffy with that but at the end of the day it boils down to what Xander says and it is true...

If you really love someone and they are about to leave, forget everything that's been said and done, if you love them and want them to stay then tell them! do you really sit back and let them go because you don't like ultimatums? What kind of logic is that?

Actually, I've been in that exact situation, the person I loved most in the world gave me an ultimatum and I didn't take it. Ultimatums suck on so may levels, it's not as simple as letting them leave or not. I do regret it, but I still understand why I did it. And remember that Buffy didn't just sit back, she just reacted too late. The only reason that I disagree with Xander is because Riley was a major jerk at that point. He cheated on Buffy, Buffy should have been the one doing the ultimatum, not him.

 

[Kean]

It took me awhile to get there but I really love Riley. I think going to vampires to feed off him was wreckless thing to do but I don't find it misogynistic and I find no fault in him needing more from his relationship from Buffy. Nor do I find any fault in Buffy for not being able to give that to him. The reality of the situation is that Buffy and Riley weren't a good match for each other. Neither of them could love the other they way they needed to be loved. It wasn't from a lack of trying or effort, they just didn't fit.

When I think about Buffy and Riley in S5 I feel unending sympathy for them both. Buffy was going through a huge amount of stuff and she didn't have a partner she felt she could lean on to help her through it. For the first time we start to see the strain of her life show on Buffy's face. I always think of her crying at the sink. Rather than being an aid to her, Buffy found herself "handling" Riley, as another ball she had to juggle in her life. Whatever it is that she needed, he couldn't give, no matter how much he wanted to.

For Riley it is no better. Everything he has ever known to be true was destroyed in S4. His career, his friends, his mentor, his values... all went up in flames with The Initiative. His life had fallen apart and he had no path or support. He needed someone to share all of that with, someone to support him, someone he could support. He needed a purpose beyond lackey #4. He is driven man, he is willing and he is able but I think he lost himself in S5 and that led him to do some really stupid things like paying to be bitten.

I have no issue with Buffy and Riley breaking up. I especially don't have any issues with their reasons because I think they were two people who wanted and needed very different things. They cared about each other, deeply, and still do, but they were never endgame.

What I do have issue with is Xander's speech. Buffy and Riley had made their choices (choices that we know now were the right ones for them) and he no place telling Buffy that she should love this man. The relationship wasn't working for neither Buffy nor Riley. If Buffy wasn't in love with him after a year and a half, she wasn't going to be. I didn't appreciate Xander undermining Buffy's feelings and telling her that she treated Riley harshly. Buffy believed she gave Riley everything she could and I believe her. That not being enough doesn't mean Buffy was wrong or unkind to him, she just wasn't the person for him. I would have preferred if we had been left with Buffy and Riley come to their natural conclusion to that, rather than Xander butting in.

 

[Robb Stark]

Ugh, words cannot describe how much I loathe the way in which Riley leaves. In fact, the whole Buffy/Riley relationship is a bit messed up but I’ll just focus on the break up.

Riley cheats on and sexually undermines Buffy and then turns around and blames it (and all their problems) solely on her. It's all about the fact that she wasn't open with him or wouldn't coddle him while her mother was dying, not that fact that he's a misogynistic ass. I like Riley, but he has internalised some really poisonous and misogynistic crap. Then he gives her an ultimatum (I loathe ultimatums, they are one of the worst kinds of power plays) and she, rightfully, has had enough of his tantrums and walks away.

Enter Xander (in what I consider one of his lowest moments) who basically shames Buffy into believing that everything that went wrong in her and Riley’s relationship was entirely her fault – and what’s worse is she swallows all that crap and goes running after Riley, leaving her spine back with Xander. It’s gross and really undermines Buffy as a feminist icon – running after a guy who is threatened by your strength, who blames everything on you and who sexually undermines you? Not good.

The sexism/misogyny (for me) is that Riley was sexually undermining Buffy by receving suck-jobs from vampires and he then turns around and blames her for his actions (much like an abuser blames their victim "You made me hit you, if you loved me more I wouldn't do this etc."), before issuing her with an ultimatum, which allows him to leave guilt-free while Buffy shoulders guilt that she never should have had. Buffy is forced to believe that it was solely her actions that caused her boyfriend to treat her badly, a mind frame many abuse victims end up with. She is shamed for “not being what Riley needs” and pushed into believing that she alone is to blame for everything that went wrong in her and Riley’s relationship.

I don't think it's fair to say that Riley is acting misogynistic. There's nothing really to support that other than inference. And I've never been able to understand why people say that he felt threatened or insecure about Buffy being stronger than him. Buffy mentions that exactly one time in the series, he rejects it and she accepts that. Yet so many fans still maintain that's where the relationship fell apart. I don't think there are any real indications of that at all.

I agree with a lot of what [MENTION=7585]Kean[/MENTION] said. I had no problem with them breaking up. Riley wasn't "The Guy" for Buffy. At the same time though, saying that he sexually degraded her isn't right either. Wanting more out of a relationship isn't being mean or degrading. If Buffy can't give him more, there's nothing wrong with that, but it isn't inherently misogynistic. A girl running after a guy isn't "bad", just as a guy running after a girl isn't bad. If you think you've made a mistake, and you're trying to fix it, there's nothing wrong with that. Buffy felt she made a mistake (I don't think she did, but she felt that). That isn't weak or anything. I agree completely that Buffy was going through a tremendous amount, but when you think about it, so was Riley. Everything he believed in was torn down in S4. Like, literally everything. He screwed up, yes, but I hardly think, when considering the scope of the situation, that makes him a sexually degrading woman-hater. I mean, both Buffy AND Riley were pretty screwed up emotionally at the time. He should have had more awareness of that, but when you think about it, shouldn't she as well? I mean, if Riley gets crap for not fully acknowledging what Buffy is going through, shouldn't she get some heat for not really mentioning, at all, the stuff he's had to work through, which is just as bad? I mean really, why does she get a pass for not understanding his emotions? I'm not saying accept them for what Riley wants, they clearly weren't weren't compatible anymore, but Buffy shows very clearly several times that she's completely pegged Riley wrong.

We usually agree with symbolism on the show, but I kind of feel like you're looking for there to be a problem here. I mean, the way that Faith treats Xander after sex, that's degrading. The way Spike treats Buffy through most of S6, that's degrading. I don't think Riley really falls into that same category. I agree that ultimatums, like [MENTION=8404]Blaze[/MENTION] said, are rarely a good thing, and that there were better ways to approach it though.

 

[Blaze]

But Riley basicly cheated on Buffy, he went off to get sucked on by some vampire. To me, that means he was degrading Buffy. There was nothing wrong with him seeking more out of the relationship, but to me cheating is unforgivable, period. I agree, misogynistic is not the right word, but he still degraded Buffy in my opinion.

 

[EffieT1]

I more or less agree with most of the stuff thats been said so far. Personally I was a Riley lover from the minute he showed up in S4, however that love was tested whenever he got whiny like when buffy's mom was sick. Im one of those people that does think Buffy was in love with Riley, yes it wasnt the all consuming Angel love but different people get loved differently. What I came here to say though was that I HATED the Riley vampire suckage storyline and when he gave Buffy that ultimatum I wanted to slap his face because he managed to make himself the victim in a conversation where Buffy should have been the hurt party. Although I dont agree with her decision to chase after him (as at that point I was uber pissed at the Riley character) I was upset that she was too late and when he came back later with a WIFE so soon I was like WTF.
rant over

 

[Robb Stark]

I more or less agree with most of the stuff thats been said so far. Personally I was a Riley lover from the minute he showed up in S4, however that love was tested whenever he got whiny like when buffy's mom was sick. Im one of those people that does think Buffy was in love with Riley, yes it wasnt the all consuming Angel love but different people get loved differently. What I came here to say though was that I HATED the Riley vampire suckage storyline and when he gave Buffy that ultimatum I wanted to slap his face because he managed to make himself the victim in a conversation where Buffy should have been the hurt party. Although I dont agree with her decision to chase after him (as at that point I was uber pissed at the Riley character) I was upset that she was too late and when he came back later with a WIFE so soon I was like WTF.
rant over

You know what it is for me? I get that Riley really screwed up, I really get that. What he did with the vampires was ridiculous, stupid and really, pretty weird. However, I think what I really took out of that scene, and the realization Buffy came to, was that when you're at the brink of something, you find out what's important to you, and all the crap just fades into the background.

Sometimes, not all the time, but sometimes, who's "right" or "wrong" or who "deserves" to be angry just doesn't matter. What matters is each other. I think, with Xander's pushing obviously, that's what Buffy came to see, to late as it happens. I don't think that makes her weak or less of an icon, and I don't think that makes Riley a jerk. That's why I think that scene is so cool.

 

[Kean]

But Riley basicly cheated on Buffy, he went off to get sucked on by some vampire. To me, that means he was degrading Buffy. There was nothing wrong with him seeking more out of the relationship, but to me cheating is unforgivable, period. I agree, misogynistic is not the right word, but he still degraded Buffy in my opinion.

Personally, I always saw the biting more as a drugs/heroin metaphor rather than sexual/cheating thing. Maybe it was both? I don't know, but when I see those scenes all I can think of is a drugs den.

 

[white avenger]

What I do have issue with is Xander's speech. Buffy and Riley had made their choices (choices that we know now were the right ones for them) and he no place telling Buffy that she should love this man. The relationship wasn't working for neither Buffy nor Riley. If Buffy wasn't in love with him after a year and a half, she wasn't going to be. I didn't appreciate Xander undermining Buffy's feelings and telling her that she treated Riley harshly. Buffy believed she gave Riley everything she could and I believe her. That not being enough doesn't mean Buffy was wrong or unkind to him, she just wasn't the person for him. I would have preferred if we had been left with Buffy and Riley come to their natural conclusion to that, rather than Xander butting in.

As near as I can recall,Xander said something along the lines of, "If you don't love the guy, let him go. Break it off, clean and proper, but break it off. Don't string it out, it's killing both of you. But if you DO think that Riley's the 'forever' guy, do whatever you have to to keep him around." The choice was entirely hers, he was just pointing out the options.

The sad thing about this relationship is that I honestly think that it was Buffy, not Riley, who wanted it to work the most. Riley was Buffy's last attempt at what could be defined as a "normal" relationship. Normal being defined as a life that included the possibility of a family and a peaceful, non Slaying kind of future. Like Spike said earlier, the Slayer needs a little monster, or, more accurately, superhuman, in her man. Riley was just too normal to ever share Buffy's life on a permanent, or even long term, basis, because, as we've seen with Seasons 8 & 9, Even when she has the freedom to step down, Buffy has chosen the life of Slayer. It's no longer something that she HAS to do.

Assuming that there ever is a day when Buffy's dough is fully baked, one thing is certain, The person who ultimately gets the cookies will be someone at least as powerful as Buffy herself. Normal humans need not apply.

 

[EffyStonem]

I don't think it's fair to say that Riley is acting misogynistic. There's nothing really to support that other than inference. And I've never been able to understand why people say that he felt threatened or insecure about Buffy being stronger than him. Buffy mentions that exactly one time in the series, he rejects it and she accepts that. Yet so many fans still maintain that's where the relationship fell apart. I don't think there are any real indications of that at all.

Some examples of Riley's internalised misogyny:

From 4.07 The Initiative

Buffy: Oh, did you ever think maybe I'm gonna take you home, huh? What? You think that boys can take care of themselves and girls need help?
Riley: Yes.
Buffy: That is so Teutonic.

That exchange might be small but when Riley replies "Yes" it is without irony. He genuinely believes that females need male assistance.

----------------------------------------------------------

From 5.04 Out of My Mind

RILEY: (shakes his head) It's not about him. It's about us. (Buffy shakes her head, not understanding) You're getting stronger every day, more powerful. I can't touch you. Every day, you're just ... a little further out of my reach.
BUFFY: You wanna touch me? (walks toward him) I'm right here. I'm not the one running away.
RILEY: Not yet.
BUFFY: So you have this all figured out? I'm bailing because you're not in the super club.
RILEY: (shrugs) It's human nature.

This scene shows that Riley struggles with being weaker than Buffy and it is a prime example of him projecting his own insecurities onto her. He doesn't like the fact that she's stronger than him, but rather than face his own issues, he insists that his "weakness" will lead to Buffy leaving him; an accusation which has no evidence to back it.

----------------------------------------------------------

From 5.10 Into The Woods

BUFFY: But I do. That's part of what being a slayer is. (shakes her head) And that's what this is really about, isn't it? You can't handle the fact that I'm stronger than you.
RILEY: It's hard sometimes, yeah. But that's not it.

There is no reason for Riley to find being weaker than Buffy "hard"; unless he believes that as a man he should be the stronger one. That is misogyny/sexism. Riley struggles with Buffy's strength because he believes he, as the man, should be the strongest.

If Buffy can't give him more, there's nothing wrong with that, but it isn't inherently misogynistic. A girl running after a guy isn't "bad", just as a guy running after a girl isn't bad.

I agree, running after someone you love is not necessarily "bad". However, running after someone who has treated you as appallingly as Riley treated Buffy is weak and degrading. Believe me, I speak from personal experience.

 

[Yosso]

Ugh, words cannot describe how much I loathe the way in which Riley leaves. In fact, the whole Buffy/Riley relationship is a bit messed up but I'll just focus on the break up.

Riley cheats on and sexually undermines Buffy and then turns around and blames it (and all their problems) solely on her. It's all about the fact that she wasn't open with him or wouldn't coddle him while her mother was dying, not that fact that he's a misogynistic ass. I like Riley, but he has internalised some really poisonous and misogynistic crap. Then he gives her an ultimatum (I loathe ultimatums, they are one of the worst kinds of power plays) and she, rightfully, has had enough of his tantrums and walks away.

Enter Xander (in what I consider one of his lowest moments) who basically shames Buffy into believing that everything that went wrong in her and Riley's relationship was entirely her fault "“ and what's worse is she swallows all that crap and goes running after Riley, leaving her spine back with Xander. It's gross and really undermines Buffy as a feminist icon "“ running after a guy who is threatened by your strength, who blames everything on you and who sexually undermines you? Not good.

The sexism/misogyny (for me) is that Riley was sexually undermining Buffy by receving suck-jobs from vampires and he then turns around and blames her for his actions (much like an abuser blames their victim "You made me hit you, if you loved me more I wouldn't do this etc."), before issuing her with an ultimatum, which allows him to leave guilt-free while Buffy shoulders guilt that she never should have had. Buffy is forced to believe that it was solely her actions that caused her boyfriend to treat her badly, a mind frame many abuse victims end up with. She is shamed for "not being what Riley needs" and pushed into believing that she alone is to blame for everything that went wrong in her and Riley's relationship.

I agree with much of what you've said here, though I wouldn't go as far as to call Riley misogynistic. Just not secure in his own masculinity. Riley needed to feel needed, not just as a man, but as a contributing part of Buffy's life - a functioning cog rather than a derilict one gathering dust. Yes, Riley's reaction was not particularly mature, but I see where the guy's coming from.

I don't see how Riley's suck-jobs are an attempt to sexually undermine Buffy, it was about his need to be needed, to feel a sense of purpose and value. It was more a desperate attempt to prop up his own self-esteem than to undermine anything in Buffy. I don't see anything in Riley's actions that degrade Buffy, he degrades himself really in an attempt to feel valued.

I also think Xander's motivation to "shame" Buffy came from a good place, albeit the execution of his speech may not have been the most graceful. He wants Buffy to be happy and to try and achieve some semblance of relationship contentment with a human (Xander very much equates human to good, not human to "avoid like hell"). I think Xander believed that Riley was the closest Buffy was going to get to a long term relationship with a human who is able to come to terms with Buffy's slayer lifestyle. Xander didn't really think that was something to just disregard, just because Riley's can't handle Buffy's independance and made some idiotic mistakes.

---------- Post added at 01:07 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:55 AM ----------

Some examples of Riley's internalised misogyny:

From 4.07 The Initiative

Buffy: Oh, did you ever think maybe I'm gonna take you home, huh? What? You think that boys can take care of themselves and girls need help?
Riley: Yes.
Buffy: That is so Teutonic.

That exchange might be small but when Riley replies "Yes" it is without irony. He genuinely believes that females need male assistance.

----------------------------------------------------------

From 5.04 Out of My Mind

RILEY: (shakes his head) It's not about him. It's about us. (Buffy shakes her head, not understanding) You're getting stronger every day, more powerful. I can't touch you. Every day, you're just ... a little further out of my reach.
BUFFY: You wanna touch me? (walks toward him) I'm right here. I'm not the one running away.
RILEY: Not yet.
BUFFY: So you have this all figured out? I'm bailing because you're not in the super club.
RILEY: (shrugs) It's human nature.

This scene shows that Riley struggles with being weaker than Buffy and it is a prime example of him projecting his own insecurities onto her. He doesn't like the fact that she's stronger than him, but rather than face his own issues, he insists that his "weakness" will lead to Buffy leaving him; an accusation which has no evidence to back it.

----------------------------------------------------------

From 5.10 Into The Woods

BUFFY: But I do. That's part of what being a slayer is. (shakes her head) And that's what this is really about, isn't it? You can't handle the fact that I'm stronger than you.
RILEY: It's hard sometimes, yeah. But that's not it.

There is no reason for Riley to find being weaker than Buffy "hard"; unless he believes that as a man he should be the stronger one. That is misogyny/sexism. Riley struggles with Buffy's strength because he believes he, as the man, should be the strongest.


I agree, running after someone you love is not necessarily "bad". However, running after someone who has treated you as appallingly as Riley treated Buffy is weak and degrading. Believe me, I speak from personal experience.

Riley may have some old fashioned views about gender roles, but misogynistic is still a very strong label. You're saying Riley is an active woman hater. He's not and these quotes don't really show that. The first one just shows he's old fashioned and a little past it in his views. Believing women need protecting doesn't mean he hates them. Just like believing children need protecting doesn't mean I hate them. He's just blindly following cultural stereotypes. He's ignorant, not misogynistic.

I do believe Riley struggles with his masculinity when faced with Buffy's physical power and independence, yes. With the last quote, I think that Riley wants more an equal relationship and he doesn't like the idea of Buffy having more power. That's not necessarily sexist.

 

[EffyStonem]

Misogyny does not solely mean that Person A hates women. Misogyny can cover a variety of prejudices against women and is about much more than simply "hating all women". A quote from Australian Sociologist and Feminist Michael Flood sums it up nicely:

"Though most common in men, misogyny also exists in and is practiced by women against other women or even themselves. Misogyny functions as an ideology or belief system that has accompanied patriarchal, or male-dominated societies for thousands of years and continues to place women in subordinate positions with limited access to power and decision making".

Another few quotes from Wikipedia re misogyny:

"In 2012, primarily in response to events occurring in the Australian Parliament, the Macquarie Dictionary (which documents Australian English and New Zealand English) expanded the definition to include not only hatred of women but also "entrenched prejudices against women".[9]"

"Misogyny .... is a central part of sexist prejudice and ideology and, as such, is an important basis for the oppression of females in male-dominated societies. Misogyny is manifested in many different ways, from jokes to pornography to violence to the self-contempt women may be taught to feel toward their own bodies."

"In feminist theory, other forms of misogyny may be less overt. Some misogynists may simply be prejudiced against all women, or may hate women who do not fall into one or more acceptable categories. Subscribers to one model claim that some misogynists think in terms of the mother/whore dichotomy, where they hold that women can only be "mothers" or "whores." Another variant model is the one alleging that certain men think in terms of a virgin/whore dichotomy, in which women who do not adhere to an Abrahamic standard of moral purity are considered "whores".

The term misogynist is frequently used in a looser sense as a term of derision to describe anyone who is considered to hold a prejudiced view about women as a group. Therefore, someone like Schopenhauer who proposes that women are naturally subservient to men, has been criticised by some scholars[who?] as a misogynist. As another example, a man who is considered by many to be a "womanizer", is often regarded as being misogynist. Examples of this type of man would be Giacomo Casanova and Don Juan, who were both reputed to have had many libertine affairs with women.

In feminist theory, misogyny is a negative attitude towards women as a group, and so need not fully determine a misogynist's attitude towards each individual woman. The fact that someone holds misogynist views may not prevent him or her from having positive relationships with some women."

So when I say that Riley has internalised misogyny, I don't mean that he "hates women" but more that he has negative attitudes towards women and misogynistic ideals on gender roles.

 

[Yosso]

I think we'll have to agree to disagree on this one but I've always seen misogyny as quite an extreme point of view. I think people use the expression a little too freely and its intensity has diluted over time. Misogyny and sexism aren't necessarily as interchangeable as people view them.

Just dictionaried misogyny and it came up with "hatred, dislike, or mistrust of women", "hatred of women", "dislike of, contempt for, or ingrained prejudice against women". That's always how I've viewed it.

To me, the examples you've quoted reflect sexism, not misogyny.

 

[Blaze]

Personally, I always saw the biting more as a drugs/heroin metaphor rather than sexual/cheating thing. Maybe it was both? I don't know, but when I see those scenes all I can think of is a drugs den.

I was going to give you karma but you're the last person I reped, so I'll just respond here. I agree, I also do see it as some type of drug thing, but I go a bit further in thinking it was also cheating. I know a lot of people view it both ways, and I understand that most people would not see it as cheating. The only reason that I view it that way with a vampire is because there is always that sexual connotation associated with biting throughout the serie, so it's hard for me to not think about that at the back of my head. But I'm also very critical in my way of thinking on cheating, to me even thinking can be cheating. Let's say you're heart is completely somewhere else or you love someone else, well, it's almost just as good as cheating since you're heart doesn't belong with the person anymore. I think that was sort of the case with Riley. So yes, most likely it's not cheating per say but that simply how I view it at that point.

Riley's heart simply wasn't into it, and neither was Buffy's. Again, that was fine, they weren't meant for each other, what I hated was the ultimatum. I think I'm just sensitive to the subject because of personal experience, so I'll admit to not being completely objective here.

 

[Robb Stark]

Some examples of Riley's internalised misogyny:

From 4.07 The Initiative

Buffy: Oh, did you ever think maybe I'm gonna take you home, huh? What? You think that boys can take care of themselves and girls need help?
Riley: Yes.
Buffy: That is so Teutonic.

That exchange might be small but when Riley replies "Yes" it is without irony. He genuinely believes that females need male assistance.

----------------------------------------------------------

From 5.04 Out of My Mind

RILEY: (shakes his head) It's not about him. It's about us. (Buffy shakes her head, not understanding) You're getting stronger every day, more powerful. I can't touch you. Every day, you're just ... a little further out of my reach.
BUFFY: You wanna touch me? (walks toward him) I'm right here. I'm not the one running away.
RILEY: Not yet.
BUFFY: So you have this all figured out? I'm bailing because you're not in the super club.
RILEY: (shrugs) It's human nature.

This scene shows that Riley struggles with being weaker than Buffy and it is a prime example of him projecting his own insecurities onto her. He doesn't like the fact that she's stronger than him, but rather than face his own issues, he insists that his "weakness" will lead to Buffy leaving him; an accusation which has no evidence to back it.

----------------------------------------------------------

From 5.10 Into The Woods

BUFFY: But I do. That's part of what being a slayer is. (shakes her head) And that's what this is really about, isn't it? You can't handle the fact that I'm stronger than you.
RILEY: It's hard sometimes, yeah. But that's not it.

There is no reason for Riley to find being weaker than Buffy "hard"; unless he believes that as a man he should be the stronger one. That is misogyny/sexism. Riley struggles with Buffy's strength because he believes he, as the man, should be the strongest.


I agree, running after someone you love is not necessarily "bad". However, running after someone who has treated you as appallingly as Riley treated Buffy is weak and degrading. Believe me, I speak from personal experience.

But...in your own quote from Riley he says that while it bothers him sometimes, him being physically weaker than Buffy isn't the determining factor in why he's upset. I think [MENTION=12359]Yosso[/MENTION] nailed it. Riley isn't a dick. He doesn't think that women should be subjugated to women. He's old fashioned and sometimes that makes him to make comments like you outlined. That doesn't mean he treated Buffy "appallingly".

And while I'm not calling you out or anything, I'm curious as to why you didn't choose to address the other parts of my posts. Namely, the part about the crap Riley was going through as well. I mean, why doesn't Buffy get called out for understanding what he's been through. I hear all the time about how Riley picked a colossally wrong time to be needy, and I agree with that, but why doesn't it work both ways? Why doesn't Buffy get called out for not really showing any empathy for Riley? Because she's the girl? I don't understand. Really, I don't.

Misogyny does not solely mean that Person A hates women. Misogyny can cover a variety of prejudices against women and is about much more than simply "hating all women". A quote from Australian Sociologist and Feminist Michael Flood sums it up nicely:

"Though most common in men, misogyny also exists in and is practiced by women against other women or even themselves. Misogyny functions as an ideology or belief system that has accompanied patriarchal, or male-dominated societies for thousands of years and continues to place women in subordinate positions with limited access to power and decision making".

Another few quotes from Wikipedia re misogyny:

"In 2012, primarily in response to events occurring in the Australian Parliament, the Macquarie Dictionary (which documents Australian English and New Zealand English) expanded the definition to include not only hatred of women but also "entrenched prejudices against women".[9]"

"Misogyny .... is a central part of sexist prejudice and ideology and, as such, is an important basis for the oppression of females in male-dominated societies. Misogyny is manifested in many different ways, from jokes to pornography to violence to the self-contempt women may be taught to feel toward their own bodies."

"In feminist theory, other forms of misogyny may be less overt. Some misogynists may simply be prejudiced against all women, or may hate women who do not fall into one or more acceptable categories. Subscribers to one model claim that some misogynists think in terms of the mother/whore dichotomy, where they hold that women can only be "mothers" or "whores." Another variant model is the one alleging that certain men think in terms of a virgin/whore dichotomy, in which women who do not adhere to an Abrahamic standard of moral purity are considered "whores".

The term misogynist is frequently used in a looser sense as a term of derision to describe anyone who is considered to hold a prejudiced view about women as a group. Therefore, someone like Schopenhauer who proposes that women are naturally subservient to men, has been criticised by some scholars[who?] as a misogynist. As another example, a man who is considered by many to be a "womanizer", is often regarded as being misogynist. Examples of this type of man would be Giacomo Casanova and Don Juan, who were both reputed to have had many libertine affairs with women.

In feminist theory, misogyny is a negative attitude towards women as a group, and so need not fully determine a misogynist's attitude towards each individual woman. The fact that someone holds misogynist views may not prevent him or her from having positive relationships with some women."

So when I say that Riley has internalised misogyny, I don't mean that he "hates women" but more that he has negative attitudes towards women and misogynistic ideals on gender roles.

Well, and I mean this as respectfully as possible, picking definitions from Wikipedia and non-objective sources doesn't do a lot for me. According to Dictionary.com, the definition of misogyny is:

mi·sog·y·ny
[mi-soj-uh-nee, mahy-] Show IPA
noun
hatred, dislike, or mistrust of women.

There's nothing in there at all about misogyny relating to gender roles. If you look at the site, which provides definitions from several dictionaries, they are all pretty similar. I think that naming Riley a misogynist just isn't correct. It's over-dramatizing and just really isn't accurate.

 

[EffyStonem]

But...in your own quote from Riley he says that while it bothers him sometimes, him being physically weaker than Buffy isn't the determining factor in why he's upset.

But it is a factor and that is not good. He is threatened by Buffy's strength and she doesn't need to be putting up with that crap. She deserves someone who will allow her to be as strong and as independant as she wants and not be threatened by that.

I think @Yosso nailed it. Riley isn't a dick. He doesn't think that women should be subjugated to women. He's old fashioned and sometimes that makes him to make comments like you outlined. That doesn't mean he treated Buffy "appallingly".

"Old-fashioned", ie stuck in a time where women were subservient and misogyny was more prevalent than it is today.

I don't like the "he's old-fashioned" explanation, because it provides a screen to hide behind and makes excuses for sexist and/or misogynistic behaviour. And Riley did treat Buffy appallingly towards the end. He cheated on her, blamed all their problems on her and issued her with an ultimatum, putting the guilt entirely on her shoulders at one of the most emotionally turbulent times in her life. He's an ass.

And while I'm not calling you out or anything, I'm curious as to why you didn't choose to address the other parts of my posts. Namely, the part about the crap Riley was going through as well. I mean, why doesn't Buffy get called out for understanding what he's been through. I hear all the time about how Riley picked a colossally wrong time to be needy, and I agree with that, but why doesn't it work both ways? Why doesn't Buffy get called out for not really showing any empathy for Riley? Because she's the girl? I don't understand. Really, I don't.

Alright, I'll adress what Riley was going through.

In Season 4 I do feel genuinely bad for Riley in episodes such as Goodbye Iowa and The I In Team. His world is crumbling and everything he believed in is proven to be a lie and the drug withdrawel just looks painful. I think that he was forced to come to terms with who he thought he was supposed to be and that was hard on him. And I think that Buffy is supportive and sympathetic to him during that time and does what she can to get him through it.

However, in Season 5 he seems to have gotten past it. He's adjusted somewhat to civilian life and he seems to be doing alright. All his issues in Season 5 seem to come from the fact that he's not "Action Guy" anymore, therefore his girlfriend is doing all the heavy lifting, something he is not comfortable with due to his views on gender and masculinity.

I read an article (I wish I could link it but I forget where it is, I'll try to find it) where the author discussed how focused on being "Action Guy" Riley is. He refuses to make peace with the fact that he just can't be that guy anymore and because of this Buffy's strength threatens him. He could have become research guy, reconaissence guy, weapons guy etc. He could have found a comfortable and helpful niche to fit into but he refused to, thus creating his own issues.

So there's no confusion, I don't hate Riley. He has some great moments (I particularly like the scene where he rescues Oz from the Initiative). However I do find a lot of his actions in Season 5 to be very problematic and I don't like the way he treats Buffy.

Re the meaning of misogyny. At the simplest, most basic level, yes misogyny means the hatred of women. However, misogyny covers a much broader spectrum of prejudices, negative attitudes and feelings towards women, from slut-shaming to violence against women. It is not just an extremist issue.

And fine, you don't like Wikipedia. I will link in some articles/essays from some different sources once I have time to look them up.

---------------EDIT-------------------

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/15/opinion/15herbert.html?_r=0

http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/2010/jul/30/casual-sexism-misogyny

http://www.thenation.com/article/164947/misogyny-killing-my-generation#

Those should be a good starting point. They all talk about extreme misogyny as well as more subtle misogyny.

 

[Robb Stark]

But it is a factor and that is not good. He is threatened by Buffy's strength and she doesn't need to be putting up with that crap. She deserves someone who will allow her to be as strong and as independant as she wants and not be threatened by that.


"Old-fashioned", ie stuck in a time where women were subservient and misogyny was more prevalent than it is today.

If you're going by comments the characters make in the vein that Riley made them, Buffy is just as sexist as Riley is, if not more. I mean, take this comment:

"Giles: It acts on pure instinct. No conscience, predatory and aggressive. Buffy: In other words, your typical male."

Does this make Buffy a male-hating jerk? If you take an isolated comment and not the scope of her entire character, it sure looks that way. She says it pretty seriously and only apologizes after Xander calls her on it. Riley is protective of Buffy, but does that make him different than Angel? He's more overt about it maybe, but Angel is incredibly protective of Buffy, even though she's stronger than him. Does that make Angel misogynistic? Riley has been a big, athletic person for most of his life, and a soldier/secret agent as well. Now he's in a relationship where he's not in that role. It's natural that he's uncomfortable in it. It's a 180 from what his previous experience is.

I just don't see the desire to protect your girlfriend as an indicator of misogyny (although we seem to have very different definitions of the word).

As another flipped example (which I just thought of now 😛), most typical dating customs expect the guy to pay on the first date, right? Does that mean that if a girl is expecting that she's guilty of misandry?

Alright, I'll adress what Riley was going through.

In Season 4 I do feel genuinely bad for Riley in episodes such as Goodbye Iowa and The I In Team. His world is crumbling and everything he believed in is proven to be a lie and the drug withdrawel just looks painful. I think that he was forced to come to terms with who he thought he was supposed to be and that was hard on him. And I think that Buffy is supportive and sympathetic to him during that time and does what she can to get him through it.

However, in Season 5 he seems to have gotten past it. He's adjusted somewhat to civilian life and he seems to be doing alright. All his issues in Season 5 seem to come from the fact that he's not "Action Guy" anymore, therefore his girlfriend is doing all the heavy lifting, something he is not comfortable with due to his views on gender and masculinity.

I read an article (I wish I could link it but I forget where it is, I'll try to find it) where the author discussed how focused on being "Action Guy" Riley is. He refuses to make peace with the fact that he just can't be that guy anymore and because of this Buffy's strength threatens him. He could have become research guy, reconaissence guy, weapons guy etc. He could have found a comfortable and helpful niche to fit into but he refused to, thus creating his own issues.

So there's no confusion, I don't hate Riley. He has some great moments (I particularly like the scene where he rescues Oz from the Initiative). However I do find a lot of his actions in Season 5 to be very problematic and I don't like the way he treats Buffy.

Re the meaning of misogyny. At the simplest, most basic level, yes misogyny means the hatred of women. However, misogyny covers a much broader spectrum of prejudices, negative attitudes and feelings towards women, from slut-shaming to violence against women. It is not just an extremist issue.

And fine, you don't like Wikipedia. I will link in some articles/essays from some different sources once I have time to look them up.

I do agree that Riley goes downhill fast in S5. It's hard to like him then, agreed. I haven't seen S5 in a while, so maybe I need a refresher, that could very well be the case, but I recall Riley being a pretty big mess then.

Riley wants to be in the middle of the action, yes, and at times he goes a little far with that desire, yes. However, if he's on Buffy's team and actively fighting evil with them, which he was, it isn't exactly surprising that he doesn't want to be used in a research capacity. He's been a field agent for years. Of course he still wants to be in the heat of the action. I mean, is that really different than a police officer who is pissed off after being pulled from the street and put behind a desk? Riley has been the field leader pretty much ever since he joined the military. He's used to commanding a unit. It makes sense that he'd want to be in a leadership capacity.

I do agree with you though that he failed to adjust. However, I'm not really sure if the complete destruction of your entire belief system, of everything you believe in and have dedicated yourself to for your entire adult life, of seeing your mother figure and several of your best friends all killed and then brought back as twisted Frankenstein-esque versions of themselves, is something you really get over in a summer. And we see it. He isn't over it. He's way more emotionally and mentally screwed up in S5 then he is in S4, and don't think that's because of Buffy. He may screw up and focus things on her, and yeah, that's on him, but the Riley of S4 wouldn't have done half the things Riley of S5 did. I really believe that. Riley was great for Buffy in S4.

Mostly, I think that the timing was just horrible for both of them. Buffy couldn't see what Riley was going through and be there for him because of the problems with her Mom, and Riley couldn't be there for Buffy in a way she needed (even though he tried) because he was a wreck. I don't think either of them deserves blame for that.