How do you feel about Faith?

[AnthonyCordova]

[MENTION=12614]thetopher[/MENTION] I'm not quoting the way I'm supposed to, sorry it's just easier and faster that way

thetopher said:Where does it ever indicate that Faith slays only for the fun of it?

She never says anything to the contrary. She never says that slaying is making the world a better place, or anything like that. She says all the time that it "gets her juiced", "if you're not enjoying it you are doing something wrong" etc. but she never says that she does slaying for any other reason. When does she give any other reason, when does she even make a nod in the direction that slaying is a good thing to do to make the world a better place? I can't recall one moment like that, sorry. To the best of my memory, she only said otherwise (and numerous times).

thetopher said:So Faith enjoys the slaying, so what, it turns out so does Buffy.

Yes there are moments when Buffy says things that shows she enjoys slaying too, on occasion. But Buffy was always cognizant of the good that slaying does. The pleasure from time to time that she got from it was never the only reason, and it was never the most important reason. She appreciated the responsibility and good of slaying in the way early Faith did not. (Unless I'm not remembering something, if you do please offer me examples). Yeah, there is a darkness to being a slayer. Buffy eventually gets in touch with it too. But that doesn't change the fact that Faith never once did slaying for any other reason than because she enjoyed it (early on), but Buffy always clearly had other (better) reasons. Point me to an example where Faith said differently. I honestly can't think of one, but maybe I'm missing something.

thetopher said:on the issue of "she was bad when she shows up"...born bad, etc.

I never said she was "born bad", you said that not me. I said she was bad by the time she first showed up on the show (from the first episode onwards) in the sense that she was selfish (because she did slaying for selfish reasons (enjoyment) because she often eschewed slayer responsibilities to pursue fun things instead, because she used sex (and related things like flirting, coming on to guys etc) for her own personal gratification and nothing else (sex with Xander is an example) etc. These are the ways in which she was "bad" to me. If you disagree with that, fine, I just want to make sure you understand what I'm saying. Her version of selfishness was the overwhelming impression I got from her while watching her in the beginning.

thetopher said:but it does sound like you might be projecting just a little onto the character, but then, I guess everybody does that, its why we all have favourites I suppose.

Yeah, we all project a little I guess. My observations of Faith are what they are. My impression of her was different than other people. I've known people like early Faith before, and I could see similar selfishness/pleasure-seeking qualities in them all. Maybe I'm projecting, sure, but maybe I'm seeing real things that other people are not. But obviously you don't agree, which is fine. Maybe I'm wrong, I don't know. Faith seems like a 'holy cow' on these boards and no one ever likes it when someone has something less than flattering to say about her from a different perspective. But maybe I'm wrong, I don't know.

---------- Post added at 05:34 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:16 PM ----------

thetopher said: Where does it ever indicate that Faith slays only for the fun of it? So what


So what? It bothers me because Faith seems to have no other reason for doing slaying, that's so what. All of the indications from what she actually says in every episode (pre-reform) seems to indicate that she has no appreciation for slaying beyond the enjoyment. But please, if you remember things she said that contradict me, please tell me. It is very possible I forgot somethings.

 

[AnthonyCordova]

I'll try and very briefly clarify my point. All Faith ever says with regard to slaying is how much fun it is for her (and I've already said that). She tells everyone how enjoyable it is, but she never once says that slaying is a good thing or anything like that. Okay, I noticed that. Than I notice that she's all about having a good time, flirting with guys, casual sex, etc. to the point that she even eschews her greater responsibilities sometimes. She even tries to talk Buffy into her lifestyle (that episode where Buffy leaves class and Faith steals stuff from that store, etc.). When I put all of it together, it seemed like all Faith really cared about (at bottom) was herself...her needs. When I added up everything about her (that we know of from the show) she really just likes gratification. She never says anything to the contrary. All we ever see her do and hear her say is what she wants for herself. She sleeps with Xander (gets what she wants and then promptly kicks him out of her place) she can't stop saying how much she gets off on slaying but never says anything selfless like it is for a greater and better purpose, etc. You add things up and all it amounts to seems to be a rather selfish person who likes gratifying her urges (when you strip everything else away). I wouldn't be as harsh on her if she did or said things occasionally to indicate that that is not all there is to her. So in the end I drew the conclusions I did about her.

And to repeat, I know she had a rough childhood. I'm not saying that there weren't reasons why she ended up the way she did. But when I look at her from the point she appeared on the show, she didn't appear to me as a good person who would later take a fall. Maybe calling her bad is going a little too far...but regardless of the reasons for why she was the person she was, she wasn't likable to me. I'll be honest, I don't like selfish self-centered gratificationists very much. And it was hard to draw any other conclusion. Sure she was fun but I looked past that and saw other things about her that I didn't like. Which made the veracity of the fall arc far less compelling/believable

---------- Post added at 10:14 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:55 PM ----------

Okay, I'm ready for all of the inevitable flames and backlash.

 

[Ethan Reigns]

From Chosen:

FAITH
It's nothing personal. It's just after I get bouncy with a guy, there's not that much more I need to know about him.

ROBIN
That's bleak.

FAITH
Way of the world.

Faith has no concept of romance and I agree with [MENTION=12670]AnthonyCordova[/MENTION] that Faith is a base, vulgar, crass character with limited intellect who was intended to show the opposite part of what Kendra showed: the way Buffy could have been if things had been different. Kendra supported the authoritarian view of the world championed by the Watchers' Council and Faith was to show the rough and tumble trailer trash world where there is no concept of love. Kendra and Faith are contrasts that help define Buffy by what she isn't.

Her transformation on Angel is believable in a way that Wesley's is not: driven by understanding of her responsibility and her desire to be different. Overall, I am not a big fan of Faith.

 

[Blaze]

And to repeat, I know she had a rough childhood. I'm not saying that there weren't reasons why she ended up the way she did. But when I look at her from the point she appeared on the show, she didn't appear to me as a good person who would later take a fall. Maybe calling her bad is going a little too far...but regardless of the reasons for why she was the person she was, she wasn't likable to me. I'll be honest, I don't like selfish self-centered gratificationists very much. And it was hard to draw any other conclusion. Sure she was fun but I looked past that and saw other things about her that I didn't like. Which made the veracity of the fall arc far less compelling/believable

Very quick answer here (since I should already be sleeping by now), but to me Faith represents that part of us reaching to the dark side. In my opinion, every human being is capable of doing what Faith did, under the right (or wrong) circumstances. Faith is such an important character to me because she displays that dark side that is in us, and that we should control, unlike what Faith did. Whereas you see her as selfish and self-centred, I see her as someone that anyone could become if pushed to the limit. To me she is anything but fun, she's someone that I can look up too and remind myself that we cannot let circumstances get the best of us. Overall I just think Faith can be a bit misunderstood (but again, who wouldn't defend their favorite character). Anyhow, I'll admit I haven't gone through the whole thread so I'm sorry if some stuff have already been brought up. I'll behave now and go to bed 😛 I'll come back tomorrow and read the whole topic.

---------- Post added at 10:44 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:30 PM ----------

Faith has no concept of romance and I agree with [MENTION=12670]AnthonyCordova[/MENTION] that Faith is a base, vulgar, crass character with limited intellect who was intended to show the opposite part of what Kendra showed: the way Buffy could have been if things had been different.

I'll admit the Faith fan in me cringed a bit reading this. I don't think it's that Faith doesn't get romance, it's that she's not open to loving. We do see her love (Buffy, the Mayor, Angel), but Faith does have some trust issues there. Before Faith can have a healthy sexual relationship, she'll need to be open to loving someone openly, and I just can't see that happening soon. Saying she has limited intellect just sounds plain wrong to me. On the contrary I think that Faith might be one of the more "street smart" aware character in the series. Intelligence is not just measured with books.

And about Buffy, we are shown the Faith version of Buffy in "The Wish". The two are still different. They initially lead us on to show what Buffy could have been if her background was different. But in the end, the message is that Buffy would not have been like either Faith or Kendra. They make the parallel between good slayer/bad slayer but they make it a point to show that it's not that simple, at least that's how I saw it.

 

[Xin Rong]

To put it simply, I love Faith. She's tied for favorite character, and her character arc is my favorite of the entire verse (with Wesley's coming second).

She's probably the character that I could write the most about, so I'll abstain since no one wants to read a novel lol.

[MENTION=12614]thetopher[/MENTION], I couldn't rep you but I completely agree, I sort of view Faith as a role model also, which is a bit weird to say considering the things she'd done. But the way in which I connect to her feelings, and her redemption storyline is one of the best I've seen, I can't help but to look up to her somehow. In a way, she's a reminder of what not to become, and how easily one can go down a path under bad circumstances. Faith feels like an alter ego, someone that anyone could become, but someone that we need to steer away from. And in the end, Faith is able to steer away from darkness herself. It's not like she should receive a prize for being good (and even she makes that explicit), but I still have admiration for the way she overcame hardship.

---------- Post added at 01:37 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:36 PM ----------

Forgot to add, my favorite ep of Faith is Bad Girls

I agree, Faith is my own personal hero, she has darkness in her, that seems to be a result of her s***ty life and upbringing, but she overcomes it, eventually, and continues to fight the good fight, whilst dealing with her own inner demons.

I would love to have even half of her strength

 

[thetopher]

I'll try and very briefly clarify my point. All Faith ever says with regard to slaying is how much fun it is for her (and I've already said that). She tells everyone how enjoyable it is, but she never once says that slaying is a good thing or anything like that. Okay, I noticed that. Than I notice that she's all about having a good time, flirting with guys, casual sex, etc. to the point that she even eschews her greater responsibilities sometimes. She even tries to talk Buffy into her lifestyle (that episode where Buffy leaves class and Faith steals stuff from that store, etc.). When I put all of it together, it seemed like all Faith really cared about (at bottom) was herself...her needs. When I added up everything about her (that we know of from the show) she really just likes gratification. She never says anything to the contrary. All we ever see her do and hear her say is what she wants for herself. She sleeps with Xander (gets what she wants and then promptly kicks him out of her place) she can't stop saying how much she gets off on slaying but never says anything selfless like it is for a greater and better purpose, etc. You add things up and all it amounts to seems to be a rather selfish person who likes gratifying her urges (when you strip everything else away). I wouldn't be as harsh on her if she did or said things occasionally to indicate that that is not all there is to her. So in the end I drew the conclusions I did about her.

And to repeat, I know she had a rough childhood. I'm not saying that there weren't reasons why she ended up the way she did. But when I look at her from the point she appeared on the show, she didn't appear to me as a good person who would later take a fall. Maybe calling her bad is going a little too far...but regardless of the reasons for why she was the person she was, she wasn't likable to me. I'll be honest, I don't like selfish self-centered gratificationists very much. And it was hard to draw any other conclusion. Sure she was fun but I looked past that and saw other things about her that I didn't like. Which made the veracity of the fall arc far less compelling/believable

---------- Post added at 10:14 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:55 PM ----------

Okay, I'm ready for all of the inevitable flames and backlash.

From 'Consequences':

FAITH: And I'm sorry about the guy,really. But it happens....Anyway - how many people do you think we've saved by now? Thousands? And didn't you stop the world from ending? In my book, that puts you and me firmly in the plus column."

This shows that Faith thinks about the morality of slaying, that she thinks of it as a 'good thing' and not just as 'having a good time', she shows moral awareness of her actuions, which makes her actions later on in 'Consequences' and afterwards all the more tragic.

Faith does several things to help that I doubt she would consider 'fun', she helps guard Oz while in he's in wolf-form, she takes orders from Mrs Post- in fact she seems desperatley eager for any guidance from an authority figure, which doesn't mesh with your 'only for the fun of it' theory, she helps save the world during 'The Zeppo'- I mean, did she really do that because it was fun? or because she's a slayer and its the right thing to do.

Also, if Faith never saw slaying as anything other than a party, why exactly is so deeply affected by her time in Buffy's body?
It's because that time (saving that girl from from the vampire for example) reminds her of what she used to be, what she could've been. Which is why she chooses to go to that church and save those people, because she remembers that's what a slayer is supposed to do.
If she never ever thought that to begin with then she wouldn't have cared, she'd have just rode off into the sunset, and be in Mexico by now.

---------- Post added at 11:57 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:52 AM ----------

From Chosen:

FAITH
It's nothing personal. It's just after I get bouncy with a guy, there's not that much more I need to know about him.

ROBIN
That's bleak.

FAITH
Way of the world.

Faith has no concept of romance and I agree with [MENTION=12670]AnthonyCordova[/MENTION] that Faith is a base, vulgar, crass character with limited intellect who was intended to show the opposite part of what Kendra showed: the way Buffy could have been if things had been different. Kendra supported the authoritarian view of the world championed by the Watchers' Council and Faith was to show the rough and tumble trailer trash world where there is no concept of love. Kendra and Faith are contrasts that help define Buffy by what she isn't.

Her transformation on Angel is believable in a way that Wesley's is not: driven by understanding of her responsibility and her desire to be different. Overall, I am not a big fan of Faith.

This is classic psychology; dump somebody before they dump you. It's a defense mechanism that Wood easily sees through but obviously you don't. 😉
Faith understands love. She loved the Mayor, she loves Angel (in a brother/sister way I'm sure.) and she has shown affection/concern for others, most specifically Buffy. but it doesn't come easily to her.
Of course she's capable of romance, because, as you just said, she changes over the course of the show.

 

[AnthonyCordova]

I've got a lot to say again, so bear with me. Sorry.

From 'Consequences':

FAITH: And I'm sorry about the guy,really. But it happens....Anyway - how many people do you think we've saved by now? Thousands? And didn't you stop the world from ending? In my book, that puts you and me firmly in the plus column."

I thought about this quote for a little while to make sure what my feelings were about it, and I think I have problems with this being used as an example. This quote occurs right after Faith kills the deputy mayor right? Faith is being defensive about Buffy's concerns and Faith is denying moral culpability for having killed someone, so naturally she reaches for the most convenient argument: we've saved so many lives so we're in the plus column, etc etc. I don't feel that is a real demonstration that she's had appropriate "moral awareness" the whole time. That was just a convenient excuse to use for just having killed someone. Why does it take accidently killing someone for Faith to finally say something like that? It's very suspicious. It's suspicious when a character never explicitly says anything to suggest she appreciates the morality of slaying, and then right after killing someone by accident, says something convenient like the quote immediately afterwards as justification. I'm not convinced this particular quote changes anything. And I have more to say about this below.

guarding Oz in wolf form:

Fair enough, I don't have anything to say about this.

Faith takes orders from Mrs. Post-in fact she seems desperatley eager for any guidance from an authority figure, etc.

This doesn't sit well with me (I feel there is a little Faith bias here). I've got some free time today, so I'll try and watch the relevant scenes from that episode and see. Maybe your right, but I need to see it again for myself. I've only seen every episode once. But I don't remember it that way.

she helps save the world during 'The Zeppo'

Yes, she did help stop the apocalypse in this episode. She has also killed a lot of vampires too. The question is what are Faith's motivations for doing so? You already know my opinion. So I'll try and approach it a different way by analogy. Specifically Faith's use of sex (and I'll say more about this in a slightly different context later). It's not a perfect analogy and it's a little bit of a stretch I guess but I'll go ahead and use it anyway.

Let's just say having sex with someone (especially in the form of love) is an act for another person's sake too. You could say it is selfless, in a way. It's not just about yourself (if you have a healthy attitude about sex to begin with). Now it's implied in the show that Faith has lots of sex. Does that mean she's doing it for the right reasons, or for healthy and well-adjusted reasons if you prefer? (Faith slays a lot of demons and vampires, does that mean she does that for the right moral reasons [or healthy moral reasons if you prefer?]). With sex, Faith uses it to get what she wants (i.e. selfish reasons, more on this later) to gratify her urges. Obviously, Faith is sort of a horny girl, and she has a love for pleasure (when we first meet Faith on the show, one of the first things she talks about is a story about slaying vampires in the nude, and she finishes by saying "God I could eat a horse. Isn't it crazy how slaying just always makes you hungry and horny?"). The point of this somewhat clumsy analogy is that, just because Faith has sex, doesn't mean she has the best moral/selfless reasons for it. (She's not making love to any of these guys after all, it never means anything to her, see Xander sex again). Similarly, just because Faith kills lots of vampires and demons doesn't mean she does it for moral, selfless reasons either. You can perform slaying for moral/selfless reasons (just as you can have sex in a selfless way and with due consideration for the other persons feelings and needs) but that doesn't mean that every slayer (specifically Faith) does.

I might be being a little too black and white about it. There might be a limited moral understanding there in Faith. But she says abundantly all of the time how much fun slaying is for her, and never anything else. I asked myself this question: If Faith didn't find the process of slaying so enjoyable in that visceral way she does, would she still do slaying? I'm really doubtful. She doesn't have a well developed moral compass (I maintain again that the preponderance of the evidence says that Faith is a selfish and self-centered gratificationist when you get right down to it). Your quote from above about Faith rationalizing an accidental kill is a perfect example of how Faith lacks a moral compass: If she did have a strong moral compass in the first place, if she really did appreciate in an internalized way the moral goodness of being a slayer, she wouldn't have tried to rationalize a poor moral excuse about the accident in the first place. She wouldn't have resorted to that excuse. She would have known (just as Buffy knew right away) that it was wrong to justify her mistake that way. That is, if Faith had a sufficiently developed moral sense, which I think she didn't. She was too selfish to really have a sufficiently developed one. The quote you provided above strikes me as more evidence for my opinion actually.

Also, if Faith never saw slaying as anything other than a party, why exactly is so deeply affected by her time in Buffy's body?
It's because that time (saving that girl from from the vampire for example) reminds her of what she used to be, what she could've been, etc.

Let me repeat first that, going back to my original post, I said somewhere that Faith, by the time we actually meet her in the show, is already a selfish and self-centered gratificationist. That change didn't develop gradually during her time on the show; she was that from the first moment she came on camera. Her decline, her shedding all pretense for being good and officially changing sides to the evil guys, that is what changed.

okay, moving on. Now that I've said that, I will also repeat that I never said she was a hopelessly bad person from childhood on. I understand she had a terrible past/childhood/adolescence etc. She became the selfish self-centered gratificationist I claim she is for real reasons (but all of it before she actually appeared on the show). So when you ask what exactly deeply affected her about her time spent in Buffy's body, I agree that it might have reminded her of what she used to be, but if that's the case it was a reminder of who she was before we ever see her on the show. I think that's important (more on that later).

But also, I don't think it is unreasonable to think it didn't necessarily have to be a reminder of who she was. It happens sometimes to people that, through some unusual circumstance, they see themselves in a different light, they suddenly can step outside of themselves, see themselves beyond their biased and subjective point of view, and they have an epiphany, they realize how awful they really are. Which is exactly what I really think happened to Faith. She didn't actually start suffering a real crisis about herself until during and after the body-swap episodes. She swaps bodies with Buffy. Then, she has a revealing exchange with Joyce about who Faith really is. She gets an unfiltered and unflattering opinion of herself from Joyce. And it hurts. Joyce then hugs Faith, and she gets uncomfortable. She gets a direct experience of love and care from Buffy's friends (which Buffy gets because of the type of good person she is) and she has never really had that before (at least from what we see on the show). When Faith saves a girl in distress from a vampire--and mind you, she did that strictly to avoid blowing her cover--and she is thanked by the girl with warmth and sincerity and gratitude, Faith gets even more uncomfortable. She's learning more and more what it's like to be like Buffy, and in the process she is seeing herself from a different perspective. By being Buffy, she gets a direct point of comparison by which to see and judge herself in a way she couldn't before. This doesn't necessarily have to be a reminder of when she was a better person. Maybe that's part of it, but it doesn't have to be. Swapping bodies with a different person is a dramatically altering thing. It's so dramatically altering that it would be enough to get anyone to see themselves in a very different light. I could see how Faith would just get shaken by the experience itself, to be forced to see things about herself by comparison with Buffy that she couldn't see before and took for granted.

And then there is the Riley love scene moment. The breaking point really. She wants Riley to use her but he refuses. He obviously doesn't see Buffy that way. He loves her, and the only thing he can do to her is to love her. Talk about uncomfortable! Faith had never had that kind of experience before. It didn't have to remind her of better days in her past. The experience alone (when it's pretty safe to assume Faith had never made real love before) was shattering enough. Being Buffy highlighted everything that was wrong about Faith to herself. Then she beats Buffy down, she is straddling her, and she says "you're nothing, you're disgusting" over and over again. She is literally beating her own face up. And it's obvious, she's not calling Buffy that, she's calling herself that. Faith is angry with herself. She resists for a little while then finally breaks down for good on Angel. And that's that.

You said something about if Faith had never cared about being a good slayer to begin with, she wouldn't have cared or changed and just rode off to Mexico or whatever. My position is that she didn't care before, but she was forced to by having swapped bodies with Buffy. That traumatizing and deeply shaking experience forced her to look at herself in a way she probably wouldn't have had it not happened. I contend that if the body swap episodes hadn't have happened, Faith probably wouldn't have changed. She'd still be the same person she was before essentially. It took something that serious and dramatic to really shake her, to really get to her. That's what it takes with some people.

 

[Blaze]

I've got a lot to say again, so bear with me. Sorry.

From 'Consequences':

FAITH: And I'm sorry about the guy,really. But it happens....Anyway - how many people do you think we've saved by now? Thousands? And didn't you stop the world from ending? In my book, that puts you and me firmly in the plus column."

I thought about this quote for a little while to make sure what my feelings were about it, and I think I have problems with this being used as an example. This quote occurs right after Faith kills the deputy mayor right? Faith is being defensive about Buffy's concerns and Faith is denying moral culpability for having killed someone, so naturally she reaches for the most convenient argument: we've saved so many lives so we're in the plus column, etc etc. I don't feel that is a real demonstration that she's had appropriate "moral awareness" the whole time. That was a convenient excuse to use for just having killed someone. Why does it take accidently killing someone for Faith to finally say something like that? It's very suspicious. It's suspicious when a character never explicitly says anything to suggest she appreciates the morality of slaying, and then right after killing someone by accident, says something convenient like the quote immediately afterwards as justification. I'm not convinced this particular quote changes anything. And I have more to say about this below.

I just wanted to address this specific point quickly. In itself, Faith trying to make up an excuse shows that she understand the morality behind her act. She's trying to reassure herself as much as she's trying to convince Buffy. She's not trying to make an argument as a pro or a con, she's trying to convince herself of what she did. Also, it's completely irrelevant that Faith would say something like that before because what she said is dependant on the situation. Buffy herself never brought up something like that, to me it makes perfect sense that she would mention it directly afterwards because she needed reassurance. Actions also do speak louder than words and I think Faith's actions do display that she has an understanding of slaying. Faith, after her killing, just needed to be told that killing a man was not the end of her world. To me this is the point of this quote, not just to show that Faith understands of not (to me she clearly does).

I'll answer some more later on when I have more time.

 

[AnthonyCordova]

I just wanted to address this specific point quickly. In itself, Faith trying to make up an excuse shows that she understand the morality behind her act. She's trying to reassure herself as much as she's trying to convince Buffy. She's not trying to make an argument as a pro or a con, she's trying to convince herself of what she did. Also, it's completely irrelevant that Faith would say something like that before because what she said is dependant on the situation. Buffy herself never brought up something like that, to me it makes perfect sense that she would mention it directly afterwards because she needed reassurance. Actions also do speak louder than words and I think Faith's actions do display that she has an understanding of slaying. Faith, after her killing, just needed to be told that killing a man was not the end of her world. To me this is the point of this quote, not just to show that Faith understands of not (to me she clearly does).

I'll answer some more later on when I have more time.

I kind of disagree. First, if I remember correctly, Faith delivers that line with some confidence. Maybe I'm remembering wrong, but that's how I recall that going down. But even if I'm wrong about that, I think that a person with a sufficiently developed sense of morals wouldn't say that sort of thing, wouldn't resort to that kind of morally-dubious argument and wouldn't be convinced by it either. It's important to point out (and not a surprise) that Buffy is never convinced by Faith's reasoning about it either. And it is because Buffy has a strong moral compass, and Faith doesn't really. Faith doesn't want to deal with it. She needs a way to push the moral dilema to the side. Moral people don't do that. They can't live with themselves if they push something like killing a person to the side, to refuse to deal with it and just use a handy and convenient (and poor) excuse to move on. That's not what people with a strong moral sense do. And that is certainly not how Buffy took it.

I actually kind of like the quote more and more, because you also get a nice comparison of Buffy and Faith's very different responses to the event. It really helps illustrate the difference between Buffy and Faith, between someone with a strong moral sense and someone without it, etc.

---------- Post added at 01:27 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:20 PM ----------

Also, it's completely irrelevant that Faith would say something like that before because what she said is dependant on the situation.

I don't mean that Faith never said this specific thing before. You're right, that is context dependent. I mean that she never said anything that indicated she appreciated the moral goodness and responsibility that slaying involves. She never made any gesture about those things. That's what I mean when i say she never said anything like that. Not the idea from the quote specifically.

 

[white avenger]

The Slayer is a warrior literally created cor combat. It's quite understandable that she, whoever she is, would revel in it the same way that a champion Thoroughbred loves to run. If the Slayer weren't exactly that way, if they were reluctant, or even afraid of what they had to do, beyond a healthy sense of caution, they would be utterly useless at what they do. Maybe Faith felt it a bit more than Buffy did, or maybe Buffy just repressed the feelings because she had been raised to believe that such things were wrong or immoral. Remember, Buffy didn't have a Watcher until after she had been Called, so she never got any of the background, preparatory training and conditioning that a Potential was supposed to have. Maybe if she had had that, the way that Faith apparently did, her attitude toward Slaying would have been more like Faith's.

 

[AnthonyCordova]

Eh...re-reading everything again makes me think I might be being a little unfair to Faith. I do think there are alternative readings of her though. I'm trying to offer one. There is Faith in a sympathetic or flattering light, and Faith in a not so sympathetic or flattering light. There is not just one Faith but many Faiths. I don't mean to kill the conversation, feel free to dispute my previous posts if you want. Just thought I'd throw that out there.

 

[thetopher]

Wow, look at that. no flame war. 🙂

Just an honest discussion about a character. That may say something deep and meaningful about Faith fans...but probably not.

I think one of the interesting things about Faith is that you can view her in different ways. We know very little about her background/upbringing, (no ones cares enough to ask.) we don't know how she became the slayer or what her first Watcher was like. We can only speculate about the nuances of her developing moral code and the choices she makes.

These, to me, are all good things and worthy of discussion.
I just...I think her story is richer and her character has a little more depth if she knew what being the slayer entailed, the resposibilities and so forth, but still screwed up and lost her way.
Faith enjoys the slaying, she more in touch with that part of herself than Buffy, but that certainly doesn't preclude the fact that on another level she knows about her slayer duty, she just chooses to reject it because she doesn't have any support/ gives in to those darker urges, or whatever.
But that's just my opinion. 🙂

 

[AnthonyCordova]

Yeah. Specifically, I honestly think I oversimplify things too much, on second and third readings. I really need to see everything again too (I know, I say that a lot). Again, the argument is still there if anyone wants to pick it up. I might withdraw one or two things though, but I'll stand by the rough and general outline of the criticism, for now.

I'm not trying to be too scared or overly nice and handle everyone and everything with kid gloves (for anyone who also didn't like Faith and took to that side). I feel like I should take a step back from the hard line of the original argument though. I can begin to see a certain problem with it, so I'll spare myself a part of the defense.

 

[thetopher]

Hey, I watched the show multiple times and I'm still figuring things out. Which character's I liked different from the first time I watched
I mean the first time and watched it all through I disliked B/Angel (on Buffy, not on his own show.) and one of my other favourite characters was Spike. 😱
But I grew up, watched it again, saw how he changed and...just stopped liking him that much. ( I'll admit its a lot of his fans who set me off though...)

But I've always like Buffy and Faith, I guess that makes me some sort of slayer fanboy. 🙂

 

[The Bronze]

I think Faith should be the poster child for that prisons rehabilitation process. She walks through the door as a murderer, rapist, slayer for hire. Capable of torturing people and actively working towards the mass murder of 100's perhaps 1000's of people.

Since she's left prison she appears to have made a complete 180 turn and is now fighting the good fight. It's an incredible turn around if it holds out.

 

[Fuffy]

and one of my other favourite characters was Spike. 😱

Oh, the horror!!! (Said sarcastically)

I think Faith should be the poster child for that prisons rehabilitation process

If this were to happen, the prisoners would probably say "Sorry, but things like that only happen in the TV, not in real life" 😛

There is not just one Faith but many Faiths

Which is why she is such a rich character 🙂

 

[bespangeled]

I just adore Faith - no more needs to be said. 😀

 

[Under Her Spell]

Faith is definitely one of my favorite Buffyverse characters. Could never get enough episodes with her in 'em. Somewhat unpopular opinion: I like Faith a little more as a good guy, specifically in Angel season 4/Buffy season 7. Actually, she is the absolute best thing about both of those seasons, especially Angel season 4. Once she entered the picture to take down Angelus and save Angel the way he saved her...amazing stuff. I love that Faith. I love nasty bad Faith too, she is certainly one of the biggest reasons Buffy season 3 is so damn strong. But I guess I'm a sucker for redemption story arcs (Willow's and Spike's in season 7 are highlights for me for that season also.)

 

[Fuffy Baith]

I like Faith a little more as a good guy, specifically in Angel season 4/Buffy season 7. Actually, she is the absolute best thing about both of those seasons, especially Angel season 4.

Yea I love when Faith comes back. It really is the best part of those seasons. Those seasons drag a bit and then Faith comes in and suddenly it's better. Kind of the same with Buffy s4 and Angel s1. They have some good episodes early on, but then Faith comes in and steals the show. She's just such a great character. But her redemption arc is the best imo, besides Angel cause he has his own show. Faith did so much in her 26 episodes between both shows.

 

[thetopher]

Oh, the horror!!! (Said sarcastically)

Heh. Just a sign of maturity I guess. 😉

Could never get enough episodes with her in 'em. Somewhat unpopular opinion: I like Faith a little more as a good guy, specifically in Angel season 4/Buffy season 7. Actually, she is the absolute best thing about both of those seasons, especially Angel season 4. Once she entered the picture to take down Angelus and save Angel the way he saved her...amazing stuff.

Totally agree. Reformed Faith is the best. S
he still has that dark, dangerous edge but is fundementally a much better person thanks to prison.
I do think she tends to steal the show whenever she pops up. Whether its Buffy s4 or Angel 1 or more noticably in Buffy S7/Angel S4, the way she plays off whoevers on screen with her is always impressive.
Wish we could've had a bit more though.