How Does Spike Fight Back

nerd4hire

nerd4hire

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When Buffy is talking to Spike in her basement she tells him he's alive because he fought back. How did he fight back? I'm not sure even Buffy knows, but she seems to have a feeling Spike rebelled from the First Evil's control.

I have a theory that could explain this. It could shed some light on the whole 'what is really happening with Spike' question.

Spike never hurt anyone when he was crazy-Spike. He didn't start hurting people until he began to regain his sanity.

Was Spike's insanity a reaction to what the First evil was trying to force him to do? When he was insane he seemed to be protected from the control of the FE's mind games.

Spike suggests to Buffy real violence (the kind of violence done by souled beings) requires self-loathing. In Amends and in Season 7, the First Evil tries to make Angel, Spike, and Willow hate themselves so they will do violence to themselves or others.

Did Spike retreat into insanity rather than face the hate the first Evil wanted him to feel for himself? Is that how he rebelled against the First Evil's control?

When the First Evil is talking to Spike behind the door at Buffy's house the FE says "Never send a bollocks to do a man's job". There was something the First Evil wanted Spike to do and Spike went crazy, rather than do it.

This is what I think it was:
At the end of Never Leave Me the First Evil tells Spike "You're the one who couldn't take care of what's his name".

Who is "what's his name". It can't be Andrew, because the FE mentions him by name in the same scene.

Suppose it turns out Princpal Woods is "what's his name". Suppose it turns out Woods is good and powerful and Spike went crazy rather than kill him for the first evil. This kind of possibility may be how Spike fought back.
 
Originally posted by nerd4hire
When Buffy is talking to Spike in her basement she tells him he's alive because he fought back. How did he fight back?
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Spike is trying to fight back by not giving in to what the First Evil wants him to do. In the basement scene, the FE wanted Spike to kill Buffy - but he resisted. Which is what Buffy is most likely referring to.

Spike never hurt anyone when he was crazy-Spike. He didn't start hurting people until he began to regain his sanity.
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I highly doubt the FE was controlling Spike by then, or even trying to get inside his mind. The evil influence of the Hellmouth surely had some effect on Spike, probably in combination with his new-found soul. I don't think the FE started using Spike until he was taken out of the basement by Buffy and it decided to start taking matters into it's own hands - appearing to the scoobies etc.

When the First Evil is talking to Spike behind the door at Buffy's house the FE says "Never send a bollocks to do a man's job". There was something the First Evil wanted Spike to do and Spike went crazy, rather than do it.
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The FE has been trying to get Spike to kill Buffy and/or the other Scoobies, in pretty much the same way it's tried to convince Willow to commit suicide and Dawn that Buffy will turn against her. Instead of Spike doing in Buffy, he's going all soft and guilty, and has the Slayer restrain him in order to prevent him from hurting anyone. That's what the FE means when it says: "never send a boy to do a man's job."

Who is "what's his name". It can't be Andrew, because the FE mentions him by name in the same scene.
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Seeing as the running gag of the show is that no one has a clue as to who Andrew is, or what his name is, I'm fairly certain the FE is referring to Andrew here.

To be honest, I think everyone is looking way too much into Principal Woods' character, whom I personally don't believe to have any special role (yet), and is a character in pretty much the same way as principal Snyder.
 
Actually I just rewatched this episode, and I realize I was incorrect about the basic premise of my theory.

Buffy tells Spike he's alive because he changed and he fought back against the monster inside himself, not against external evils.

Nevertheless I still think there is an importance being attached to the whole violence caused by self-loathing thing, and I still think (hope) the Principal is going to turn out to be a pivotal character in season 7 working for the forces of goodness.

Wouldn't it be interesting if the Principal character was being groomed as a replacement for the Giles character.
 
I think you're theory is nicely thought of, but I don't believe it, though the Andrew-thing may be true. I hope Principal Wood will have a bigger role, maybe as love-interest for Buffy, he sure seems up to something with burying Jonathan's body. I hope he turns out to be good, maybe he's a watcher. Anyway he'll probably get eaten.
 
I highly doubt the FE was controlling Spike by then, or even trying to get inside his mind. The evil influence of the Hellmouth surely had some effect on Spike, probably in combination with his new-found soul. I don't think the FE started using Spike until he was taken out of the basement by Buffy and it decided to start taking matters into it's own hands - appearing to the scoobies etc.
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Not so. Something was appearing to Spike in the first ep of the season.

Wouldn't it be interesting if the Principal character was being groomed as a replacement for the Giles character
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I've been saying that all season. OK, maybe not on this board, but that's my theory too. I would love that, more than if he were just a mere love interest. Frankly, I think a force for good is the more pivitol role, and I do think he's going to be big.

My new theory is that the FE needs a souled vampire to turn evil to do his dirty work. Is it a coincidence that it manifested itself to Angel and Spike? No, I think not. I'm thinking that a souled vampire has some power that the FE needs to harness to make its comeback, or regain power, or whatever.
 
Yeah, the importance of a souled vampire to the FE's plans would make double sense if it turns out Angel and Buffy are both fighting the same evil this season.

The soul of a vampire does seem to have power in the Buffyverse (eg. only a vampire with a soul can have a child) .

On the other hand vampire blood all by itself also has power. Spike and Angel both have a soul, but another thing they both have is vampire blood.

Remember in the Becoming part 2

< Whistler: (takes a swig and looks back at Buffy) Angel's the key. (closes the fridge) His blood will open the door to Hell. Acathla opens his big mouth, creates a vortex. Then only Angel's blood will close it.
One blow will send 'em both back to Hell.>

So did the FE need a vampire with a soul, or vampire blood to unlock the seal of Danthazar?

Maybe it's neither. FE-Buffy insinuates to Spike she was going to bleed Andrew to unlock the seal. Then again it's possible she was lying. The First Evil is after all, evil.

Bends your brain around doesn't it?

Here's something else to think about. It probably doesn't mean anything, but don't you think it's interesting that the Uber-vamp looks a little bit like Acathla? We don't know the Uber-vamp's name yet. Danthazar would have been the creator of the seal.

Just one more thing;

Getting back to the idea of Spike retreating into madness from evil... Do you remember in From Beneath You when Spike and Buffy are investigating the worm hole, Spike tells Buffy the Ghosty types in the school basement drove him crazy. Later he accidently drives a pole through Ronny the worm-boy and instantly goes nuts. He can be seen as realizing he's done a bad thing, then going crazy in reaction.

Also; Spike seems to be a kind-hearted man as a crazy person. He even feels sorry for the dog that was eaten by worm-Ronny earlier.

Spike: Poor Rocky

I still believe madness is Spike's protection from the mind control of the First Evil.
 
very good points...i like them...that angel with a soul thing opening and closing acathla to go to hell...or whatever...i think HE could do it bcuz he had a soul....i think the only thing that can do those opening and closing with their "special" blood....bcuz dawn was a key also....but wasnt a vampire....but she was still special since she was the key and it depended on her blood.
 
I think it's just blood, as they also tried to use Jonathan, but he just didn't have enough!

I still believe madness is Spike's protection from the mind control of the First Evil.
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Very interesting point! Good be, I'm crazy and nobody seems to be able to play mind-games on me!

< Whistler: (takes a swig and looks back at Buffy) Angel's the key. (closes the fridge) His blood will open the door to Hell. Acathla opens his big mouth, creates a vortex. Then only Angel's blood will close it. One blow will send 'em both back to Hell.>
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Now you look at this simply, do we all se the similarity with Season 5! It's very logical though, as Spike put it himself in 5.22 "the Gift":

XANDER: "Why blood? Why Dawn's blood? I mean, why couldn't it be like a, a lymph ritual?"
SPIKE: "Cause it's always got to be blood."
XANDER: "We're not actually discussing dinner right now."
SPIKE: "Blood is life, lackbrain. Why do you think we eat it? It's what keeps you going. Makes you warm. Makes you hard. Makes you other than dead. (quietly) Course it's her blood."
 
i know its her blood.....but its only herblood because she was special....she was the key...just think if the monks would of turned the key into a tree or something....what heck would they use to open the hell demensions then??
 
Whahahahahahahaha!!! ... This is a very good and very funny point, if they did, glory wood have had a bigger problem, they could have transported it to Buffy's garden, or maybe better to the middle of the rainforest!
 
Originally posted by Smackmydolphin
i know its her blood.....but its only herblood because she was special....she was the key..
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And maybe it takes a vampires blood to resurrect a vampire? 😉
 
Because their was not enough, and Andrew was suppossed to get pig's blood, but Willow caught him, then Spike was supposed to get Andrew's blood, but he refused, and as a punishment, the First used his blood!
 
When he broke out and broke through the wall and jumped at Andrew.
 
I saw it differently. The way I saw it Spike was breaking through the wall to prevent Andrew from telling Xander and Enya about the Seal of Danthazar.

Can I change the subject for a sec.

I've tweaked my theory.

It begins with this interchange between Spike and Buffy in Never Leave Me;

" SPIKE
Soul's not all about moonbeams and pennywhistles, luv. It's about self-loathing. I get it. Had to travel 'round the world, but I understand you now. I understand the violence inside.

BUFFY
Violence? William the Bloody now has insight into violence?

SPIKE
Not the same. As bad as I was, as evil and as wretched as I was, I never truly hated myself back then. Not like I do now. "

I think what Spike is talking about here is self-loathing rooted in guilt. I think he is also telling Buffy, he has seen how this feeling can be manipulated to create violence.

I bring up again how the First Evil has used guilt to attempt to manipulate Angel in Amends, Willow in Conversations with Dead People, and Spike in Lessons.

It's fascinating to me how the First Evil plays Spike guilt-wracked brain. Here's the final Scene from Lessons.

MORPHING MONSTER (as THE MAYOR)
So what'd you think? You'd get your soul back and everything'd be Jim Dandy? Soul's slipperier than a greased weasel. Why do you think I sold mine? (laughs) Well, you probably thought that you'd be your own man, and I respect that, but...

(FE-mayor is telling spike his soul won't protect him from evil. He was evil's bitch before, and he still is)

MORPHING MONSTER (as DRUSILLA)
(touching Spike's face) ...you never will. You'll always be mine. You'll always be in the dark with me, singing our little songs. You like our little songs, don't you? You've always liked them, right from the beginning. And that's where we're going...

(FE-Drusilla is telling him he's still evil deep down)

MORPHING MONSTER (as THE MASTER)
(stands) ...right back to the beginning. Not the Bang... not the Word... the true beginning. The next few months are going to be quite a ride. And I think we're all going to learn something about ourselves in the process. You'll learn you're a pathetic schmuck, if it hasn't sunk in already. Look at you. Trying to do what's right, just like her. You still don't get it. It's not about right, not about wrong...

(FE-master is telling him he has no power. He is Pathetic and weak. The implication to Spike is only evil as a Force has power)

Morphing Monster walks around behind Spike, and when it reappears, it has transformed into Buffy. As Buffy, it is standing with arms crossed in front, with a smug and serious look on her face, glaring at Spike.

MORPHING MONSTER (as BUFFY)
...it's about power.

(Buffy is what Spike wants. It's the power Spike wants. The FE is using this knowledge. If you look at the whole scene the FE seems to be telling spike. "You are evil. You were, and you still are. Don't waste your time feeling guilty about it. That will only make you feel weak and bad about yourself. Return to evil. You'll be powerful and you'll get what you want".)

I believe the writers are telling us evil is a choice. The newly souled Spike can't deal with the choice the FE wants him to make. He retreats into madness.

I think the story of Spike in season 7 is going to be the story of the evolution of his soul to the point he can make the conscious decision to join the forces of good without the protection of insanity.
 
i give blood...this one time they turned me away cuz i stopped bleeding....damn nurses kept poking me trying to find my vein...
 
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