How is Faith overrated?

xfivebyfive

Because its Fate.
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Black Thorn
So I was reading through the "What makes you different to most Buffy fans?" and a lot of people were saying that they don't like Faith and they find her overrated. I've never heard people say Faith was overrated before. It bugs me because she is my favorite character, so I wanted to know why people thought that.

I love Faith. (obviously from my name) I don't actually love her for the reasons most people love her though. I love Faith because of how damaged she is by her past, and how even when she's at her darkest you can still see the vulnerability in her, not because she's hot and a villain which is a reason people list all too often (I'm not saying she's not hot cause she is lol).

But, yeah I was wondering if anyone would want to explain why they think that? What it is they don't like about her?
 
S
StarSlayer
That's one of the reasons I love Faith too. Even when she puts up this "tough" image, there's still some vulnerability and heartbreak.
MinwaraYana
MinwaraYana
*hugs*
Abbeycat
Abbeycat
I've always liked Faith.
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slayerfox
i love her for the same reasons!
A
AustCF
THIS! Faith is my favorite as well.
I don't get how she's not. I mean... I just don't feel like there's anything special or great about her character. I love the "five by five" thing and I say it all the time... but that's just a catch-phrase. I mean, she's this bad "tough" girl who's really an insecure scared little girl but we never find out why. I think I would like her much more if it was talked about more why she was an insecure scared little girl and I think I'd connect with her more if I knew the pain she'd seen before arriving in Sunnydale... or a least bits and pieces of it... but all I know is her "bad girl" persona and honestly, she's not that interesting. But somehow there are a lot of people in the fandom who treat her like she's the bomb. Like she's so kickass and cool... I just don't see it.
 
caitaintdead
caitaintdead
My thoughts exactly.
S
sisterofmercy
[No message]
I
Imberan
[No message]
I have already spoken about this at length over my past 3 years + on the boards, so I'm going to copy and paste something from another recent thread.

I have nothing against Eliza Dushku, and her portrayal of Faith was great, but I'm just not a fan of the character of Faith or how she was written. I thought it was very cliche'. I probably wouldn't have watched a Faith spin off at all. I mean there's only so much you can do with her type of character that we haven't seen a million times before. What made Buffy so special to me was that it was a good, preppy, valley girl kicking arse surrounded by her nerdy and sometimes useless, but mostly awesome friends. I just don't see anything exciting or unique about a bad girl, with a dodgy past and parent issues beating people up. I mean... that was half the girls I went to high school with!

I just don't think Faith the character holds enough interest for me to really invest myself in her character. I'm not sure exactly what I didn't like about the Faith character other than the cliche aspect she holds. I didn't like that they made Faith do all these horrible, nasty, evil things, but then would draw back and say 'oh, no, but she's actually just got problems'. Perhaps though, this could have been addressed in a Faith spin off and her character would actually become a bit more 3 dimensional.

The character is easy to identify with for lots of girls (and probably some boys) in some aspects, but at the same time she murdered people, didn't care and broke out of jail. I can't identify with that and this journey didn't have the same sort of parallels to real life that characters such as Willow or Buffy had. On top of that her character didn't have any strengths or smarts that I could aspire to. Her road to redemption never seemed to make much sense to me. I guess it was all the to and fro-ing of good and bad, and then she still had her attitude most of the time when I would have preferred to see her find a more calm attitude. I found it very hard to know for certain what Faith was all about, and who she really was.

Once again, I understand that the majority of Buffy fans see something entirely different in Faith, and that's cool to. I don't expect anyone to share my opinion entirely, and that's why I love the Buffyverse. The characters are all different shades of grey and different people see different shades.

And one more thing I want to add - me seeing her as overrated doesn't mean I dislike her. It just means that I don't understand why people actively 'love' this character so much.
 
brinkster130
brinkster130
[No message]
ok I should try and be very specific here....

Let's clear something up. Yes. Faith is hot. No doubt about it. If we were judging based on looks, Faith would be number 2 on my list( Tara will always come first ). However, we are not judging based off looks.

I am 50/50 on the fence about her. I do like Faith and her story. I really do. I just don't the way it's done. She makes herself seem like way too much of a victim than she really is. Yes it makes for great tv and people love it. What upsets me the most about Faith is that after Kendra died and she was sent in,she assumed she was in charge, fixing things to her liking, including Buffy, instead of letting Buffy do her own thing, like she has been doing before.

To me, Faith on BtVS, she was condescending, and really a brat. I find her a bit annoying in the earlier seasons. In Angel though, she finally decides to face her demons, and she wants to do good. She attempts to better herself, not only by trying for herself, but by letting others help her. That also makes for great tv.

ok I don't think I'm making a very good point since I'm not that much of a Faith fan.

To put it simply...

Faith in BtVS was meh...ok.
Faith in Angel was amazing.

Thus the 50/50

Also, most people that are fans, only see her for her sex appeal. I do believe Faith brought a lot of good things to BtVS but the one thing most people remember is her sex appeal, and that annoys the hell out of me.

Now, I don't want you to think I hate her, because I don't. I'm in the process of writing a Fuffy fic, and trust me, I wouldn't be writing it if I didn't like her. I just don't absolutely love her.

Get what I mean?
 
S
Spikefan31
Faith was awesome in AtS. She put Connor in his place! :D
M
Ms.Trick
Totally agree, Faith is much, much better in Angel than in Buffy!
Because, as with Spike, if someone like her actually existed in real life, they would not be so popular. Their crimes would not so easily be forgiven. They're bad people. Okay, so Spike's a vampire and vampires don't exist, but theoretically speaking...

But for some reason we still love them within fictional TV world. 😀

I mean, today, I seriously starting thinking about why I like Spike, what with all the bad things he's done and him being a jerk 90% of the time (excluding season 7). Hmmm...I feel like I shouldn't like him...Does liking him make me a bad person?
 
S
StarSlayer
If it does, then I'm a bad person too ;)
S
Summerlilly
Oh yeah baby! Bad Spike!!
E
ElmoHasAGun
So we're bad people :) Whatever
K
kadrikaur
No, it just makes you a person. Who likes to look and enjoy hot guys.
For me, it wasn't just about Faith being the "bad girl." She was "the bad slayer," or more like the rebel slayer. She was chosen to do good, but fell way off her path.

To me, Faith on BtVS, she was condescending, and really a brat

I felt like that was the point though 🙂
 
The character is easy to identify with for lots of girls (and probably some boys) in some aspects, but at the same time she murdered people, didn't care and broke out of jail. I can't identify with that and this journey didn't have the same sort of parallels to real life that characters such as Willow or Buffy had. On top of that her character didn't have any strengths or smarts that I could aspire to.

She did murder people and at one time I really did think she was evil. I disagree that she didn't have any strengths or smarts. Faith was plenty capable, a kick ass slayer with street smarts and an attitude. She just didn't have the same kind of strengths or smarts as Buffy. And that's why she's really just the second slayer. She wasn't really meant to be there and she knows it. I think that's the main reason she hates Buffy. Because she wants to be THE Slayer but she never will be. She let her self be won over by the evil side for a long time....but I always hoped she would ask for redemption one day. That's where Angel comes in. I think Faith did change as a character over the duration of the show and I'm a fan of that. She was like the bad kid I wanted to see wake up one day and know who she really is....and realize its somebody great. She was always unpredicatable.
 
Another thing I feel the need to say is that I didn't dislike Faith quite as much until I joined BB and saw everyone talking about Fuffy. I think the idea of a Fuffy ship is ridiculous to me and honestly, Faith didn't do enough good for me to deserve a chance to be with our hero. It really bothers me the fans of the show thing she has. Yes, a Fuffy relationship would be incredibly steamy and hot... But Fuffy sounds like an awful ship. After I started paying attention to my dislike for Fuffy and Fuffy related things, I started realizing how much I really don't understand the appeal of Faith at all. I mean, as caitaintdead said, her story was very cliche and poorly executed.
 
S
Summerlilly
Fuffy! ha ha
X
xfivebyfive
well I don't like fuffy but its because I think Faith deserves better then buffy.
MinwaraYana
MinwaraYana
:O I love Fuffy. And I sometimes think Faith is too good for Buffy. :p
What upsets me the most about Faith is that after Kendra died and she was sent in,she assumed she was in charge, fixing things to her liking, including Buffy, instead of letting Buffy do her own thing, like she has been doing before.

Faith could certainly be a real Bitch and pain in the ass sometimes! lol

ok I should try and be very specific here....
Faith in Angel was amazing.
I guess I just see her diferently having watched both.....if I'd seen her only in Btvs I wouldn't have the same appreciation.
 
I have already spoken about this at length over my past 3 years + on the boards, so I'm going to copy and paste something from another recent thread.

Sorry if I'm making you repeat yourself I've only been on the boards a few months and have never read anything you've written about Faith other then you don't get why people love her. So I was curious as to why.

I have nothing against Eliza Dushku, and her portrayal of Faith was great, but I'm just not a fan of the character of Faith or how she was written. I thought it was very cliche'. I probably wouldn't have watched a Faith spin off at all. I mean there's only so much you can do with her type of character that we haven't seen a million times before. What made Buffy so special to me was that it was a good, preppy, valley girl kicking arse surrounded by her nerdy and sometimes useless, but mostly awesome friends. I just don't see anything exciting or unique about a bad girl, with a dodgy past and parent issues beating people up. I mean... that was half the girls I went to high school with!

Well maybe we're just watching different shows but I think Buffy is the stereo-type the only thing making her stand out is being a slayer. But putting aside the whole supernatural aspect of the show almost all the main characters of shows I see are girls just like Buffy. Almost perfect lives who find something to complain about, when really they should just be happy with their lives. Buffy and her group of friends aren't that unique. I'm not saying Faith is either.

The character is easy to identify with for lots of girls (and probably some boys) in some aspects, but at the same time she murdered people, didn't care and broke out of jail. I can't identify with that and this journey didn't have the same sort of parallels to real life that characters such as Willow or Buffy had. On top of that her character didn't have any strengths or smarts that I could aspire to. Her road to redemption never seemed to make much sense to me. I guess it was all the to and fro-ing of good and bad, and then she still had her attitude most of the time when I would have preferred to see her find a more calm attitude. I found it very hard to know for certain what Faith was all about, and who she really was.

Faith cared that she murdered people. She cared when she murdered the Deputy Mayor, she just couldn't act like she did. Pretending that she didn't care was an act, a mask. And if you put on a mask long enough it becomes who you are. Faith put it on and she couldn't take it off because she couldn't let herself be vulnerable. So she just got worse and worse until she finally reached rock bottom and just wanted to die.

Her story is about her pain, her innability to move on from her past and having it block her future. She let her past run her life and take over, she couldn't trust Buffy because of it, she couldn't show when she needed help. She couldn't let go of what had happened and it destroyed her future. It's taken to the extreme of course because it's a tv show, but it has a parallel to real life.

I am 50/50 on the fence about her. I do like Faith and her story. I really do. I just don't the way it's done. She makes herself seem like way too much of a victim than she really is. Yes it makes for great tv and people love it. What upsets me the most about Faith is that after Kendra died and she was sent in,she assumed she was in charge, fixing things to her liking, including Buffy, instead of letting Buffy do her own thing, like she has been doing before.

I didn't see it as Faith trying to take charge. She was just trying to be friends with Buffy in her way, that's her personality. Buffy was the one that I thought was reacting weird. She was so overly sensitive to everything Faith said and did. It wasn't Faith's fault that Xander and Willow jumped all over everything Faith told them. Faith was the new girl she was just trying to get people to like her and Buffy being an only child couldn't wrap her head around having to share.

To me, Faith on BtVS, she was condescending, and really a brat. I find her a bit annoying in the earlier seasons. In Angel though, she finally decides to face her demons, and she wants to do good. She attempts to better herself, not only by trying for herself, but by letting others help her. That also makes for great tv.

I don't see Faith as Condescending and imo she is far from a brat. Annoying fine lol I could see how people could find her annoying even if I dont. Faith has a very strong in-your-face I-dont-care-what-you-think attitude. She formed that to protect herself. She's never had friends like the scoobies she wanted them to like her but also didn't expect it to last that long. She grows up a lot because of Angel, he really helps her to open up at trust people, but back then she didn't trust a soul. No one had proven to be trustworty. Everytime she tried she was proven right.

Also, most people that are fans, only see her for her sex appeal. I do believe Faith brought a lot of good things to BtVS but the one thing most people remember is her sex appeal, and that annoys the hell out of me.

That annoys me too I do not love Faith because of her sex appeal. I could go off on a long rant about my personal opinion on Faith and that matter but it isn't actually canon so I won't.

Because, as with Spike, if someone like her actually existed in real life, they would not be so popular. Their crimes would not so easily be forgiven. They're bad people. Okay, so Spike's a vampire and vampires don't exist, but theoretically speaking...

No they wouldn't but in the show nearly every character does something that wouldn't be acceptable if it weren't a television show.
 
I felt like that was the point though 🙂

Yes it was. But in my opinion, they could have pulled it off a bit like Cordy was written. Get my drift?

She did murder people and at one time I really did think she was evil. I disagree that she didn't have any strengths or smarts. Faith was plenty capable, a kick ass slayer with street smarts and an attitude. She just didn't have the same kind of strengths or smarts as Buffy. And that's why she's really just the second slayer. She wasn't really meant to be there and she knows it. I think that's the main reason she hates Buffy. Because she wants to be THE Slayer but she never will be. She let her self be won over by the evil side for a long time....but I always hoped she would ask for redemption one day. That's where Angel comes in. I think Faith did change as a character over the duration of the show and I'm a fan of that. She was like the bad kid I wanted to see wake up one day and know who she really is....and realize its somebody great. She was always unpredicatable.

My thoughts exactly. 🙂

Another thing I feel the need to say is that I didn't dislike Faith quite as much until I joined BB and saw everyone talking about Fuffy. I think the idea of a Fuffy ship is ridiculous to me and honestly, Faith didn't do enough good for me to deserve a chance to be with our hero. It really bothers me the fans of the show thing she has. Yes, a Fuffy relationship would be incredibly steamy and hot... But Fuffy sounds like an awful ship. After I started paying attention to my dislike for Fuffy and Fuffy related things, I started realizing how much I really don't understand the appeal of Faith at all. I mean, as caitaintdead said, her story was very cliche and poorly executed.

I wasn't all that into Fuffy either. It wasn't until after doing like the third re-watch that I decided to give them a chance and I realized that they both really could work out, in the later seasons, after Faith tries to redeem herself. But it's ok. You don't have to like Fuffy. I have my own weird reasons 🙂

I didn't see it as Faith trying to take charge. She was just trying to be friends with Buffy in her way, that's her personality. Buffy was the one that I thought was reacting weird. She was so overly sensitive to everything Faith said and did. It wasn't Faith's fault that Xander and Willow jumped all over everything Faith told them. Faith was the new girl she was just trying to get people to like her and Buffy being an only child couldn't wrap her head around having to share.

You make some valid points. However, I still think that Faith could have been a bit more subtle and a little less show-off-y.

I don't see Faith as Condescending and imo she is far from a brat. Annoying fine lol I could see how people could find her annoying even if I dont. Faith has a very strong in-your-face I-dont-care-what-you-think attitude. She formed that to protect herself. She's never had friends like the scoobies she wanted them to like her but also didn't expect it to last that long. She grows up a lot because of Angel, he really helps her to open up at trust people, but back then she didn't trust a soul. No one had proven to be trustworty. Everytime she tried she was proven right.

I could go into a whole conversation on how this reminds me of Kennedy. But I won't. 😀

See... I don't put 'condescending' or 'brat' in my list of traits that I aspire to or like.

Again, I could put Kennedy in the same predicament. For some weird reason people Love Kennedy, and those very people admit that Kennedy is a brat and annoying.

Like I said. I don't hate Faith. I like her in my own way.
 
Z
zobothehobo
Who LOVES Kennedy? I mean, it's much more common to hate her with a firey passion
I, myself, do not believe that Faith is overrated. I love her for many reasons. I think that she's never really been 'evil'. She just doesn't have the same upbringing as Buffy. Sometimes I think she doesn't even realize what she's doing. She got involved wth the Mayor's schemes because she needed someone to love her and appreciate her. She wasn't getting that with the Scoobies because with the whole Slayer thing it's kind of 'First come, first served'. These were all Buffy's friends and she was the first Slayer. Nothing new for Faith to latch onto or to make her speical after awhile. It was just about Buffy.

So she moved on to someone who cared about her and the Mayor actually did care about her. He gave her what she wanted, what she needed, what she craved and so she did what he taught her and what he wanted her to do. She's not evil for wanting that in her life.

That whole storyline is why I like her as a character. We have seen badass cahracters a lot in the past, yes and that's very common but her story gives her edge.
 
Sorry if I'm making you repeat yourself I've only been on the boards a few months and have never read anything you've written about Faith other then you don't get why people love her. So I was curious as to why.

Sorry, I may have come across incorrectly when I said that I was repeating myself. I was just giving an excuse to my laziness 😉 I didn't want people to recognise my post and wonder why I was just reposting the same thing. The same things often come up on the boards and I really didn't mean to come across sounding condescending (especially after I've just said I don't like that trait 😉)

Also, once again - I totally respect if other people like the character of Faith. Personally I find her overrated, and am stating why. This is very much a matter of opinion so I'm not going to argue my point. It's like trying to explain why I like olives to my fiance who hates olives. Since neither of us are right or wrong in our opinions it's just silly to argue it.
 
Z
zobothehobo
Oh my god. Is the "olive theory" really true for you and your fiance?
zobothehobo agrees: Oh my god. Is the "olive theory" really true for you and your fiance?

Yes. We were very excited when we watched that episode. We were less excited by the revelation that Marshall secretly likes them... 🙁
 
See... I don't put 'condescending' or 'brat' in my list of traits that I aspire to or like.

Lol, I would hope not 😀 I think with every character, especially well-written ones, there's traits you may be able to identify with and traits you don't. People like villains, but don't aspire to be them 😉 Even though I don't particularly see Faith as a villain, but more of a slayer who lost her way, I can understand what her character goes through.

Yes. We were very excited when we watched that episode. We were less excited by the revelation that Marshall secretly likes them... 🙁

I couldn't give you karma, but yay for HIMYM and the olive theory 😀 And, Marshall and Lily are still together after that, so no worries 🙂

Yes it was. But in my opinion, they could have pulled it off a bit like Cordy was written. Get my drift?

But, then we get two similar stories. Cordy wasn't necessarily on a path to redemption, but more like finding her purpose. On the other hand, Faith had a purpose because she was chosen to be a slayer. Yet, she got off track and went to the dark side for a while. Plus, it was the complete opposite to Buffy, who embodies goodness and love.

Is it just me or is Faith's story really starting to remind me of Darth Vadar, lol? 😉
 
I don't get how she's not. I mean... I just don't feel like there's anything special or great about her character. I love the "five by five" thing and I say it all the time... but that's just a catch-phrase. I mean, she's this bad "tough" girl who's really an insecure scared little girl but we never find out why. I think I would like her much more if it was talked about more why she was an insecure scared little girl and I think I'd connect with her more if I knew the pain she'd seen before arriving in Sunnydale... or a least bits and pieces of it...

I thought it was pretty heavily implied. That's what I liked about Faith, her past wasn't laid out on a platter, it was fed to us in subtle little hints. A line from "Faith, Hope and Trick" comes to mind, when she's fighting the vampires - "My dead mother hits harder than that!" - at first glance she's just taunting the vamp, but it's actually very revealing - she knows exactly how hard her mother hits. And episodes like "Revelations" too, showing her serious abandonment issues - it's telling how quickly she attaches herself to the new watcher (and later the Mayor too), because she's desperate for a parental figure, but every one of them has betrayed, abused or abandoned her. She wants love so bad and has never had it until the Mayor came along, which of course it why she did all those things, not out of evilness but just because she was desperate for love. And of course she has no idea how to express affection because she's never received any, which is where her overt sexuality stems from - she doesn't know to to deal with emotions, but she does know how to use sex to her advantage, which is probably down to being abused from a young age... anyway, I could talk for hours about her abandonment issues, her anxious-ambivalent attachment issues, her crippling lack of self-esteem, her attempts to project herself onto others... I'm just going to get to the point.

I love Faith because there's so many layers to her. She's a bundle of confused, conflicting emotions and complexes - I like a character with issues, and Faith has them by the bucketful. I could talk about Faith's character for hours, because there's so much to talk about. And it's not all there, spoon-fed to us, it takes careful analysis of the nuances of her dialogue and actions to reveal the layers. A few people in this thread are comparing Faith with Buffy, so I'll follow the trend. I have often spoken critically of Buffy in the past, but in all truthfulness, I did quite like her in the early seasons. She was funny, and peppy, and pretty awesome in places. And I felt bad for her because of the whole slayer/destined to die/yada yada stuff. But that's it. I can't think any deeper about Buffy, that's all she is, and all her character is laid up on a platter. Scratch the surface, and what do you get? More surface. That's no fun. I find that Faith is a much deeper character, one that I can think about, explore and discover new things about. There's never any end to Faith, and that is why I love her.

As for the catchphrases - I love how ironic they are. Like "five by five", it's supposed to mean "fine", but of course she's not fine, she's in turmoil but in denial. Similarly, with "want, take, have" - Faith indulges in some petty theft but she does not take her own advice at all. Like in Consequences - where despite wanting help so bad, she rejects Buffy and Angel's because she's just too scared and still a bit in denial. See what I mean - there's more beyond the surface.

And hey, I notice you're talking about the olive theory. Perfect balance, right? One partner brings to the relationship what the other can't, and they balance each out, becoming like two sides to the same coin...

wallpaperbgroup301024.jpg


Fuffy: Masters of the Olive Theory. 😉
 
Kana
Kana
Faith Karma, you know, in general...
X
xfivebyfive
I could rep this post a million times if I were allowed. You described Faith so perfectly I find few people who actually see her how she is
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StarSlayer
Whoa! We agree on something...Faith :)
F
Fusions2
I couldn't agree more on what you've said about Faith, perfect!
F
FetalPig
Excellent post
Ok so...my thought about Faith can pretty much be associated to what Willow says to her in Choices: "It didn't have to be this way. But you made your choice. I know you had a tough life. I know that some people think you had a lot of bad breaks. Well, boo-hoo!". There it is...we never know her story, why she's damaged or what made her this way. As Willow said, she had a difficult life and ok, if you can't deal with it, don't go ruin other people's life. I seriously hate how she basically destroys everything in her path. I don't hate Faith, I just feel like Buffy is better off without her character. It was a relevant one, that's for sure, but I don't miss what she brought to the show. That's a very subjective opinion but hey, to each his own.
 
Z
zobothehobo
THIS! And then all her awful behavior is just EXCUSED because she had a bad childhood
caitaintdead
caitaintdead
Totally agree, and very well said!
brinkster130
brinkster130
yes, faith doesn't have any redeeming qualities
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