How is Faith overrated?

[NY State of Mind]

Faith's Hot...... Umm thats all I got




Nah seriously a lot of valid points...i like the character of Faith more so on Angel...she's one of my favorites but I have a lot of people ahead of her like Buffy, Angel, Cordelia, etc. I think she had the potential to be a number 1 favorite character but the writing staff never made it happen...so I see why people love her but not as favorite character ever..they didn't even care enough to put her in the open credits..but its all matter of opinions

 

[Icarium]

I do find Faith extremely overrated. I only like her in the three episodes of the Orpheus arc. In the rest of the episodes she appears she comes across as the epitome of cliché. Bad childhood - check. Bad girl persona - check. Sexual "predator" - check. Leather clothing - check. Envy for the main heroine - check. Contrived redemption story - check. Okay, the last one is mostly a Whedon cliché only but still. 🙂

Also her story is botched, too, I think. Switching sides in Consequences comes completely out of left field - Faith switches from "tough girl who pretends to not care what she has done" to complete psycho (by trying to strangle Xander) in a blink of an eye, then flip-flops between the two until she gets into prison. It simply seems to me that the writers weren't sure what they wanted to do with her.

Faith cared that she murdered people. She cared when she murdered the Deputy Mayor, she just couldn't act like she did. Pretending that she didn't care was an act, a mask. And if you put on a mask long enough it becomes who you are. Faith put it on and she couldn't take it off because she couldn't let herself be vulnerable. So she just got worse and worse until she finally reached rock bottom and just wanted to die.

Allow me to quote Willow: "It's way too late. You know, it didn't have to be this way. But you made your choice. I know you had a tough life. I know that some people think you had a lot of bad breaks. Well, boo hoo! Poor you. You know, you had a lot more in your life than some people. I mean, you had friends in your life like Buffy. Now you have no one. You were a Slayer and now you're nothing. You're just a big selfish, worthless waste."

 

[dan k]

I liked Faith, i think she's an extremely interesting character but her lack of involvement with the rest of the characters left her isolated and you could argue wasted in Buffy.

Her relationship with Buffy was intriquing, whenever they were in a scene together it always brought great entertainent, they bounced off each other well whether in friendship or in heated fighting scenes which were terrific.

Like Angel i think we learnt more about Faith in LA. She was able to interact with the characters in Angel more thus she became more involved.

I have no qualms with Faith, a very dynamic character which i think Eliza played perfectly.

 

[GrrArghx]

If there's anything in this world I hate with a fiery passion, it's the word "overrated."

With that being said, I have nothing against Faith at all. The first time I ever seen BtVS (as a 7 year old little girl) Faith was my favorite. 10 years later, when I watched the entire series and was actually able to understand it, I didn't like Faith.

Now, I love her, lol.

I guess at first she just rubbed me the wrong way because of how horribly she treated Buffy (I had really strong biases my first time through the series), but I was able to understand her and appreciate her a lot more over several rewatches. Not to mention, she really is wicked awesome in ANGEL. 😛

 

[Skanky Vamp]

I think Faith is under-rated. I think they really could have expanded on the character, filled in the grey areas, gave it alittle beef (much like the did in the final season) and the character would have surprised the Buffy character. But I also think that is precisely why it never was done.

 

[sisterofmercy]

I was never able to grasp hold of anything particularly likeable about her character, even in the beginning before she went rogue. She has a few good one liners but I don't think her character was particularly interesting IMO. It seemed like they tried to make her more than one dimensional but I never quite saw it.

 

[xfivebyfive]

I do find Faith extremely overrated. I only like her in the three episodes of the Orpheus arc. In the rest of the episodes she appears she comes across as the epitome of cliché. Bad childhood - check. Bad girl persona - check. Sexual "predator" - check. Leather clothing - check. Envy for the main heroine - check. Contrived redemption story - check. Okay, the last one is mostly a Whedon cliché only but still. 🙂

I don't see how she is a cliche, there are always going to be similarities to other characters. Yes she fits a profile, she fits the profile of the abused child who grows up hardened to protect herself. If Faith is a cliche so is Buffy. The popular girl who has everything but then something comes along to shake her perfect world.

Also her story is botched, too, I think. Switching sides in Consequences comes completely out of left field - Faith switches from "tough girl who pretends to not care what she has done" to complete psycho (by trying to strangle Xander) in a blink of an eye, then flip-flops between the two until she gets into prison. It simply seems to me that the writers weren't sure what they wanted to do with her.

Faith was always a bit unhinged you see this from the beginning. It didn't come out of nowhere. Faith was putting on an act of tough girl but really she was freaking out inside. She snapped on Xander, she was spiraling out of control. She continued spiraling until "Five by Five" you see several times that she wishes things were different but she hadn't reached rock bottom yet to be able to save herself. I don't see her as flipflopping.

Allow me to quote Willow: "It's way too late. You know, it didn't have to be this way. But you made your choice. I know you had a tough life. I know that some people think you had a lot of bad breaks. Well, boo hoo! Poor you. You know, you had a lot more in your life than some people. I mean, you had friends in your life like Buffy. Now you have no one. You were a Slayer and now you're nothing. You're just a big selfish, worthless waste."

No offence to Willow because I love her but what does she know. Buffy was never her friend. Faith wanted to be her friend but Buffy never trusted Faith so Faith never trusted her. Buffy never included Faith in the scoobies. The scoobies were never Faith's friend no matter what they tell themselves. So Willow needs to shut up because she doesn't know Faith at all. It's also funny coming from the character who later will get Faith's decent better then anyone.

 

[msfantastico87]

I don't see how she is a cliche, there are always going to be similarities to other characters. Yes she fits a profile, she fits the profile of the abused child who grows up hardened to protect herself. If Faith is a cliche so is Buffy. The popular girl who has everything but then something comes along to shake her perfect world.

I mostly agree with you on this, the Buffy part. She pretty much is exactly what you said. If we are talking about over-rated, I think Buffy is definitely over-rated. I didn't really like her in the series much.

I don't think Faith is cliché. I really do have a lot of respect for the character and honestly I think that most people only focus on her relationship, or failed relationship for that matter, with Buffy.

 

[Chosen Enemy]

I think as a character she's really really good. She's deep, not black and white, very well writter. I can't stand her guts, but I do admit she's a good character. She has feelings she's trying to cover - there is the outer self and the inner self of her. Both very different, if you know what I'm talking about. And as much as I don't like her, I can understand people relating to her. And although she's just a minor character, i.e. not a regular, Joss has deepened her so much that she's one of the best characters.
People who like her for shallow reasons, I don't get. But those who can actually see beyond her outer self and see her, the true Faith, I can understand.

 

[TheVoid68]

Of course Faith was flip-flopping in Consequences. The girl's a mess of contradictions, she wants to get close but pushes people away, she needs absolution but can't even accept that it's happened, etc, etc... she flips like a switch because she's seriously mentally unstable at that point, and that's what mentally unstable people do. Her emotions are completely on edge, ready to boil over at a moment's notice.

As for Willow's speech - I do think she is mostly right. Faith made her choices, she had free will and she took the wrong path. Everything she did was her own responsibility. I don't think that Faith's past should be brushed under the rug completely though - of course it's not an excuse but it is a reason. Buffy got it - "In a different world, that could be me." And I don't think Buffy was ever really a proper friend to Faith, she was not welcoming to her initially, and seemed to flip-flop between being nice to Faith and ignoring her. It's no wonder Faith felt excluded.

Regardless, it is still true that what Faith did in S3 was wrong and it was her fault. Do I think her actions were justified? No. Does this detract at all from my adoration of her character? No! Do you think I think that Lilah is justified in working at an evil law firm without remorse? No, but I still love her. I thought that Holtz's actions were extremely unjust, but I still thought he was a fascinating character. I don't think Illyria's actions were particularly moral, I still think she was great. I don't agree with Darla, Angelus, Drusilla and Spike's torture and slaughter of millions, but I still love the four of them. Faith was wrong, but that doesn't make her immediately uninteresting or completely unsympathetic.

 

[Icarium]

I don't see how she is a cliche, there are always going to be similarities to other characters. Yes she fits a profile, she fits the profile of the abused child who grows up hardened to protect herself. If Faith is a cliche so is Buffy. The popular girl who has everything but then something comes along to shake her perfect world.

As popular as this kind of debates are, I'd rather not get bogged down in "Character X sucks/ But Character Y sucks more". Buffy being cliché or not does not make Faith any less of a cliché herself. And yes, it's always possible to claim that a character is a stereotype and be partially right, I just don't see much in Faith apart from the stereotype which is not something I would say about Buffy, Willow, Giles, etc.

Faith was always a bit unhinged you see this from the beginning. It didn't come out of nowhere. Faith was putting on an act of tough girl but really she was freaking out inside. She snapped on Xander, she was spiraling out of control.

Freaking out didn't come out of nowhere, true. But I would claim there is a world of difference between freaking out and trying to murder someone.

No offence to Willow because I love her but what does she know. Buffy was never her friend. Faith wanted to be her friend but Buffy never trusted Faith so Faith never trusted her.

Buffy never trusted Faith?

So Willow needs to shut up because she doesn't know Faith at all.

But she does. Faith thought the Scoobs were a bunch of losers who would give her as many chances to redeem herself as she would have liked. Faith, just like Ford in Lie to Me has constructed a fantasy in which they she is the misunderstood and persecuted victim, in order to justify her transgressions (unlike Ford, she doesn't really have a good excuse for that, though). Willow's speech is in essence a thematic repetition of Buffy's speech in Lie to Me and she is very much right that Faith had a choice and chose her fate.

 

[Justme]

(unlike Ford, she doesn't really have a good excuse for that, though). Willow's speech is in essence a thematic repetition of Buffy's speech in Lie to Me and she is very much right that Faith had a choice and chose her fate.

I disagree, I think the point of Faith is that we have no idea if she has an "excuse" for it or not. That's why I like the character there is ambiguity. You can either agree with Willow or try and remember that you don't actually know anything about her past and maybe she does have reasons for being so f****d up. It's usually so much of column A and so much of column B. That is one of the things I like about her character, it's open to interpretation.

 

[Icarium]

I really don't think that's the point of the character, it's just the writers being too lazy to come up with a proper backstory for her. And anyway, whatever Faith's past is, it can't possibly excuse her crimes, so Willow would be right regardless if Faith was raised in a hell dimension or had a happy childhood and just pretends otherwise because that was the fashionable or something.

 

[PrincessBuffy16]

I don't think she was, or is, overrated. Faith was, and still is, one really cool and complicated character, and I love her more and more.

 

[zobothehobo]

I agree with EVERYTHING Icarium has said here. I'd have her rep, but I've used too much rep in the past 24 hours.

 

[Justme]

I really don't think that's the point of the character, it's just the writers being too lazy to come up with a proper backstory for her. And anyway, whatever Faith's past is, it can't possibly excuse her crimes, so Willow would be right regardless if Faith was raised in a hell dimension or had a happy childhood and just pretends otherwise because that was the fashionable or something.

You could well be right, I become more disillusioned by Buffys writing my the minute to be honest, so yeah maybe it was lazy writing and a stereo-type. Still I thought the implication of abuse in her past was far more interesting than spelling it out. Perhaps it was more a case of lazy viewers?

Anyway regardless of what they did or didn't do I used the word "excuse" as you used it for some other guy (Ford?). I don't know what he did but presumably it was bad, all bad behaviour is inexcusable otherwise it wouldn't be "bad". Abuse in somebodies past may not be an excuse for being like Faith but it is a reason. To hold somebody from Buffys world to the same standard as Faiths (implied) world is a little silly in my opinion.

Yes I know that everyone who is abused doesn't go onto crime and I know people with all life opportunities do, but to ignore the correlation between the two is a little naive. I think that Faiths character raised interesting questions about what is one of societies biggest questions and I think it was in a light(ish) and user friendly way.

That's why I like her.

PS Icarium even though I quoted you this isn't all directed at you, just expanding on what I said originally.

 

[TheVoid68]

Icarium, there is a difference between a reason and an excuse, between seeing something as understandable and seeing it as justified. Faith's past is not an excuse for her actions, but it is a reason. I don't believe it makes her actions any more justifiable or robs her of any responsibility, but it does make her more understandable and sympathetic in my eyes.

But she does. Faith thought the Scoobs were a bunch of losers who would give her as many chances to redeem herself as she would have liked. Faith, just like Ford in Lie to Me has constructed a fantasy in which they she is the misunderstood and persecuted victim, in order to justify her transgressions (unlike Ford, she doesn't really have a good excuse for that, though). Willow's speech is in essence a thematic repetition of Buffy's speech in Lie to Me and she is very much right that Faith had a choice and chose her fate.

I don't believe that Faith ever did think herself the justified victim. I think she hated herself. She saw herself as a vile, disgusting murderer. That's why she did those things - because she honestly didn't think that she was any better than that.

 

[Icarium]

Icarium, there is a difference between a reason and an excuse, between seeing something as understandable and seeing it as justified. Faith's past is not an excuse for her actions, but it is a reason.

I never claimed otherwise. I probably should have phrased it better, though. What I meant when I mentioned Ford was that the guy was dying. Faith, whatever abuse we might perceive in her past didn't really have the justification of trying to save her own life by killing others. Sure, Ford was very wrong to do that, as Buffy told him, but I can understand his motivation much more easily than I can understand Faith's motivation for teaming up with the Mayor (and even less his motivation for deciding to trust her but let's not digress).

I don't believe that Faith ever did think herself the justified victim. I think she hated herself. She saw herself as a vile, disgusting murderer.

Yes but that only happened in Who Are You and subsequent episodes, IMO.

 

[Justme]

I never claimed otherwise. I probably should have phrased it better, though. What I meant when I mentioned Ford was that the guy was dying. Faith, whatever abuse we might perceive in her past didn't really have the justification of trying to save her own life by killing others. Sure, Ford was very wrong to do that, as Buffy told him, but I can understand his motivation much more easily than I can understand Faith's motivation for teaming up with the Mayor (and even less his motivation for deciding to trust her but let's not digress).



Yes but that only happened in Who Are You and subsequent episodes, IMO.

I am so stupid I thought Ford was a character from another show. TeeHee.

 

[EvilBuffy]

I like Faith. I probably like her more because I read the book 'Go ask malice'. (Which I know isn't really part of the Buffyverse but it still felt real to me.)