How is Faith overrated?

[Kana]

I don't believe that Faith ever did think herself the justified victim. I think she hated herself. She saw herself as a vile, disgusting murderer. That's why she did those things - because she honestly didn't think that she was any better than that.

Exactly! This is one of the reasons she crossed over to the darkside. It's a sense of broken identity, but lets go down the list.

I terms of a cliche, well I prefer chracter consistency anyway. To be she seems a realistic character and is still one of my favourites.

She is full of bravado and front. Faith is a bragger, the first sign of someone who a) isn't really all that evil and b) hates themselves. She was written consistently since the first episode.

She had a unhappy childhood and an abusive neglectful mother. So we have trust, abandonment issues, violent tendencies, sexual promiscuity.

Faith is also very cynical about people's intentions but as the TheVoid said looking for a parental figure. Such individuals are looking for two opposing reinforcements.

1) A loving parental figure to make them feel as if they are worth something
2) People to betray them their world view is correct.

Now Faith's philosophy on Slaying is not so different from Holland's speech to Lindsay in Blind Date. "Want, take, have" is akin to the Nietzschean philosophy. It's not about good and evil and but about power. This is perfect ideology for people like Faith and Lindsay, because it's justifies their actions. Faith doesn't have to tow the line and Lindsay can avoid poverty by working for W&H. Both of them are afraid of the weakness and vulnerability they grew up with and it's unsurprising they would take great stock in the power they have. Lindsay, the poor boy, now a successful lawyer and Faith the abuse victim, now the powerful Slayer.

Evil and the amorality gives the seduction of power and abuse or poverty is about getting that power back.

She found Buffy's attempts at trying to connect with her as patronizing and moralizing.

The Mayor managed to reinforce her sense of worth and at the same time encourage her darker impulses.

Faith always wanted to be special but felt as if Buffy stole her birth right.

Anyway that's enough about Faith's turn to the darkside, what about her redemption. To be honest her redemption story is only one that makes sense. Willow's was rushed, Angel and Spike's are dodgy because they couldn't have been expected to follow a conscience they didn't have, so what are they making up for? Faith's is the best redemption story because she begins with all the components she's working with from the start. She didn't suddenly have a soul forced on her, nor did she choose the side of good because the person she loves was on that side.

 

[TheVoid68]

I never claimed otherwise. I probably should have phrased it better, though. What I meant when I mentioned Ford was that the guy was dying. Faith, whatever abuse we might perceive in her past didn't really have the justification of trying to save her own life by killing others. Sure, Ford was very wrong to do that, as Buffy told him, but I can understand his motivation much more easily than I can understand Faith's motivation for teaming up with the Mayor (and even less his motivation for deciding to trust her but let's not digress).

OK, I understand. I agree mostly - I just thought that Faith was a very interesting character beyond that. It wasn't as simple as Dying--->Avoid death or Abused--->Go crazy. There was a whole mess of complexes that made Faith's psyche so interesting to study.

Yes but that only happened in Who Are You and subsequent episodes, IMO.

Well, that was when more was explicitly revealed about her character, but hints were laid before that. You can't expect the entirety of her character to be explained right away - that was the beauty of the This Years Girl/Who Are You/Five by Five/Sanctuary epic - it explored Faith's character in a deeper way than had been done before.

 

[TaylorSwift]

zobothehobo agrees: THIS! And then all her awful behavior is just EXCUSED because she had a bad childhood
caitaintdead agrees: Totally agree, and very well said!

Thanks guys! I'm so glad I'm not the only one out there who has this opinion of Faith.

 

[The Unspoken]

She had a unhappy childhood and an abusive neglectful mother. So we have trust, abandonment issues, violent tendencies, sexual promiscuity.

That's great. Those elements alone however don't make her a great character by default; it's their execution that does. And like others have mentioned, there are shortcomings with that. And no, I don't count a pun about her mother as backstory.

 

[Fusions2]

I don't think Faith is overrated at all. To me she is a unique character that still fits in to the clique of the Buffy world. Not because she's just a Slayer it's because she took the wrong path in life. Before Faith came along we had Kendra who was 100% good, did everything by the book and was yet another model Slayer that the show and story had told before. Once Kendra died the fans knew another Slayer would cross Buffy's world at some point and when Faith came along she seemed like just the rest of the Slayers.

Then suddenly we see Faith isn't exactly sane when she says she loves slaying and gets carried away in her first alliance fight with Buffy. This is something as fans we've never seen before and probably had pondered. What if a Slayer didn't play by the rules? To me it made Faith twice as interesting watching her throw away her legacy and walk on the dark side of life. How often had we heard of another Slayer at this point as bad? I know I hadn't and I loved that because Faith was damaged from the start and carried on until it went beyond help.

Faith is a Slayer who did some very human and criminal things, she murdered people, screwed with Buffy's life and loved it... at first. Then we see her go to jail and come to terms with what she had done in a humane way. There was no supernatural in her life for 3 years until she decided her legacy and life was owed to the only person who listened and understood her the most, Angel. As I write this I actually realise that out of all the characters on both Buffy and Angel, Faith had one of the most dynamic story lines. That to me personally makes her hardly overrated at all, it just goes to show what one story can do and that it can turn in to a huge part of the Buffyverse and open up many mini story lines. Look at the Slayer line now and you can read about other Slayers stepped on the dark side.

 

[Icarium]

Before Faith came along we had Kendra who was 100% good, did everything by the book and was yet another model Slayer that the show and story had told before.

Did everything by the book? You do remember Kendra helped Buffy save Angel and then promised not to mentioned that to her (Kendra's) Watcher, right?

Then suddenly we see Faith isn't exactly sane when she says she loves slaying and gets carried away in her first alliance fight with Buffy. This is something as fans we've never seen before and probably had pondered.

Actually we had seen Buffy do pretty much the same thing when she felt angry enough. She even did it to Ted who she thought was human.

Faith always wanted to be special but felt as if Buffy stole her birth right.

Faith claiming in Enemies that Sunnydale was supposed to be her town is quite a WTF moment considering she only came to the town to meet Buffy. And there are certainly enough monsters for everyone, so Faith's weird jealousy of Buffy really bugs me. She is jealous of Buffy's family and friends? That's understandable. But being resentful of having another Slayer around is just, I don't know, silly. Then again, Giles never having a one on one on screen conversation with her and acting as if Buffy was his Slayer and Faith an extra probably contributed to all that but I still have trouble buying it.

 

[Ruminator]

I terms of a cliche, well I prefer chracter consistency anyway.

Agreed, which is why I don't have a very strong opinion of Faith one way or another. She was a raging bad girl cliché, to be sure, but at least they followed that cliché in a consistent manner. Made a lot more sense than some of the other characterization choices they've made.

 

[TheVoid68]

Of course she is jealous of Buffy. She can see part of herself reflected in Buffy, and like Faith is what Buffy could have become, Buffy is what Faith could have become, and Faith knows it. She knows that Buffy made the right choices, and she can't stand that. It's not just about wanting Buffy's friends, family, watcher, etc... it was about wanting to be like Buffy, to be good like her. She genuinely believed that Buffy was better than her, and hated herself for being, in her own eyes, a failure compared to Buffy.

Also, I wanted to note that I agree with the point made about redemption. Faith's was the only true redemption arc in the series, because she didn't have her soul taken away and she wasn't high on magic, she was in complete control of her actions and she made the wrong choices. She didn't have the excuse of a brand new soul to smooth things over, she had to make amends for everything through hard time.

 

[caitaintdead]

Agreed, which is why I don't have a very strong opinion of Faith one way or another. She was a raging bad girl cliché, to be sure, but at least they followed that cliché in a consistent manner. Made a lot more sense than some of the other characterization choices they've made.

Exactly, which is why I don't dislike Faith, I just find her overrated. I think this thread says it all to be honest. It's a thread asking why people think she's overrated. And here comes all of Faiths army defending her. Without all these people rating Faith as a great character people cannot find her overrated.

 

[caitaintdead]

xfivebyfive agrees: I see what you mean but to be fair I think if you made the same thread for Buffy just as many people would jump to her defense

I don't know if you do see what I mean. If I started the same thread for Buffy though I wouldn't say she is overrated because I think Buffy is a fantastic character. I rate her. So I don't think she is overrated. The point is that I disagree with a popular opinion of people rating Faith. I don't rate Faith as highly as 99% of the Buffy Boards. Hence, me feeling she is overrated.

 

[Fusions2]

Did everything by the book? You do remember Kendra helped Buffy save Angel and then promised not to mentioned that to her (Kendra's) Watcher, right?

Yes I do remember that actually, just because Kendra helped didn't make her a rebel all of a sudden. She was still the model Slayer despite how she helped Buffy save Angel. All we had heard of or had been implied was that most of the Slayers before Buffy and Kendra did what they had to. None of them had murdered anyone human or turned their back on their Slayer duties.

Actually we had seen Buffy do pretty much the same thing when she felt angry enough. She even did it to Ted who she thought was human.

Buffy showed remorse and guilt the moment she realised Ted was dead, Faith only showed it a split second of it. Remember when she went back to Deputy Mayor's body? To me that showed she did care in some sense as to what she had done. But Faith didn't like showing weakness hence why she dumped the body and just washed her hands as if to say 'Opps I made a mistake, oh well, I'll do better next time.'

Faith claiming in Enemies that Sunnydale was supposed to be her town is quite a WTF moment considering she only came to the town to meet Buffy. And there are certainly enough monsters for everyone, so Faith's weird jealousy of Buffy really bugs me. She is jealous of Buffy's family and friends? That's understandable. But being resentful of having another Slayer around is just, I don't know, silly. Then again, Giles never having a one on one on screen conversation with her and acting as if Buffy was his Slayer and Faith an extra probably contributed to all that but I still have trouble buying it.

I can see completely why Faith would act and say those things, she was jealous of Buffy's life and had every right to be. As much as I loved Buffy she complained about wanting a normal life too much. Yet she had the most normal (as it could get) life out of any Slayer we knew. She had friends and family who knew and guarded her secret. She wasn't as alone as she felt. Faith had absolutely no one and to me Buffy didn't try hard enough to let Faith be apart of her life. None of the Scoobies did and it was shown when Faith's psycho Watcher came on the scene. She only had to dig to make Faith realise Buffy and the gang hadn't included her.

Giles will always think of Buffy as his Slayer because well she is and they have a bond that goes beyond the Watcher and Slayer relationship. All we know is that Faith and her first Watcher had a special relationship but sadly that all ended when her Watcher was tortured and killed in front of Faith. Another reason to send Faith off the rails as it was another first instance we heard of her life being thrown back in her face.

When Faith lost the plot and her jealousy towards Buffy grew she wanted anything that was Buffy's. As far as evil in Sunnydale was concerned Buffy was the Slayer of Sunnydale not Faith. Everywhere Faith went it was always about Buffy so if she could have claimed that then it would have been a victory in her eyes. Faith just couldn't handle being 'the replacement' and it wasn't even hers or Buffy's fault. It's just how things got dealt with one small action that took place at the end of season 1.

 

[Hero]

someone mentioned that they want to know why Faith is "a bad tough girl but really scared and insecure." im too lazy to read the whole thread, but in reply to them, you should check out this article from the buffywikia. apparently a lot of information about Faith's backstory has been released through comics. i don't know if they could as legit facts since i'm not sure what came from Joss and what didn't, but still, it's worth a read.

http://buffy.wikia.com/wiki/Faith

 

[Icarium]

Yes I do remember that actually, just because Kendra helped didn't make her a rebel all of a sudden. She was still the model Slayer despite how she helped Buffy save Angel. All we had heard of or had been implied was that most of the Slayers before Buffy and Kendra did what they had to. None of them had murdered anyone human or turned their back on their Slayer duties.

Says who? If Slayers had gone rogue in the past I doubt the Counil would loudly proclaim that fact. And Kendra's behaviour is totally against everything she has been taught. She might not kill anyone directly but by saving Angel she unwittingly contributed to the deaths of al lthe people he killed in S2 and to her own death.

Buffy showed remorse and guilt the moment she realised Ted was dead, Faith only showed it a split second of it. Remember when she went back to Deputy Mayor's body? To me that showed she did care in some sense as to what she had done. But Faith didn't like showing weakness hence why she dumped the body and just washed her hands as if to say 'Opps I made a mistake, oh well, I'll do better next time.'

I thought you were referring to Faith using some vamps as punching bags and ignoring that Buffy needed her help In Faith, Hope and Trick, not to Finch's death.

When Faith lost the plot and her jealousy towards Buffy grew she wanted anything that was Buffy's. As far as evil in Sunnydale was concerned Buffy was the Slayer of Sunnydale not Faith.

A textual support for that would be nice. I don't recall seeing a bad guy who is surprised the Slayer they are fighting isn't Buffy but Faith. For most of them a Slayer is a Slayer, period.

I can see completely why Faith would act and say those things, she was jealous of Buffy's life and had every right to be. As much as I loved Buffy she complained about wanting a normal life too much.

I think if most of us were in Buffy's position we would complain way more, so if that's Fath's reason for jealousy then Faith is a big crybaby if I am concerned. Faith wants to have it both ways - her cool loner personality that never really reaches out to Willow, Xander and Giles and still she wants to feel entitled of having close friends. Sure, people in real life do things like that all the time but doesn't mean I have to like it as a viewer.

Faith had absolutely no one and to me Buffy didn't try hard enough to let Faith be apart of her life.

I disagree, if anything in Bad Girls Buffy is trying too hard to be like Faith. The latter's response is to try to frame Buffy for finch's murder. Faith tries to strangle Xander and she is still accepted back as part of the group. What does she want more, to be declared the Queen of Sunnydale?

 

[Washburne]

First off I haven't read the thread. I'll just say that even if I like Faith less and less in Buffy I don't think she's overrated. At all. With her story, especially back story, she should be one of my favourites. I can see the appeal. And I'm very fond of Eliza. It's just something about her character when she's on Buffy that rubs me the wrong way.


Now the Faith we see on Angel instead...

 

[Nikkolas]

People with better lives than Faith have turned out worse than her. They've also turned out worse for lesser reason tahn she.

That's why I don't judge her too harshly. On the moral compass set up in the Buffyverse, she's pretty grey but she most definitely shows a great amount of remorse for what she's done and does quite a bit to atone.

That being said, on a character-level, she was a trubly superb counterpart/foil to Buffy. You see, Buffy never really took much notice of her role as a Slayer. (not until Season 5 at least) Faith however did and she even came up with her own little philosophy on it.

This ideology of what it meant to be a Slayer was born out of her desperate need to escape from reality and live life on the edge. Buffy had no such need. As trying as her life could be because of her position, she always had friends and a nice loving home to return to. Faith didn't.

That's why her going to the Mayor isn't so unforgivable. Not sure if anyone here watches or reads Naruto but there is a quote from there that really fits this situation.

"Perhaps the companionship of an evil person... is preferable to loneliness..."

Faith found a parental figure in Mayor Wilkins. And unlike the person my quote was referring to, the Mayor genuinely loved Faith too in his own way. It does not excuse Faith of course but it does make you understand her I think.

Kind of a sidenote but can one really blame Faith for going to the Mayor? Look at the sh*thole she lived in before she joined up with him and no one really gave a damn. It seems to me that Giles and the others didn't really care enough to try and rein in her erratic life. Many people who live like Faith did just want someone to tell them no, to give their life some structure. No one did that but Mayor Wilkins.

Anyway, I don't think Faith was truly enjoying her life at all. These quotes seem to scream Death Seeker to me.

"What are you gonna do, B, kill me? You become me. You're not ready for that, yet."

"(weakly, but smiling) You did it. You killed me."

I have a strong hunch Faith wanted to die ever since she killed the Mayor's assistant. She tried to ignore it, to block out the regrets, but they piled on top until she was left the wreck we see in Buffy Season 4 and Angel Season 1.

Oddly, now I think about it, it's interesting to note how Faith and Wesley, both introduced in Buffy Season 3, go down totally opposite paths. The bumbling, kind-hearted Wesley was tortured by the manic and suicidal Faith. However, while Faith would go on to gain some sense of stability and happiness, Wesley eventually becomes dead inside and almost as homicidal as Faith used to be. Only in a much more sinister, cold way.

Anyway, back to my little thoughts. I think Faith is a great character for exploring what can happen to a person when they are so tragically alone that they really have to raise and teach themselves. This sense of isolation probably wasn't helped by her being a Slayer which truly means being separate from the rest of the world.

As for if she's overrated... Any character can be overrated if a lot of people like them and you don't.

Also the Scoobies are largely a bunch of self-righteous twits. Spoiled brats with no actual knowledge of the world as a whole.

 

[Icarium]

Kind of a sidenote but can one really blame Faith for going to the Mayor?

I can.

Look at the sh*thole she lived in before she joined up with him and no one really gave a damn. It seems to me that Giles and the others didn't really care enough to try and rein in her erratic life. Many people who live like Faith did just want someone to tell them no, to give their life some structure. No one did that but Mayor Wilkins.

But for all Faith knew the Mayor could have turned out to be a distant and cruel boss. That's why the argument "but she only wanted some companion/parent-figure/whatever" doesn't work for me. At the time Faith switched sides she knew nothing about the Mayor except that he was evil.

Oddly, now I think about it, it's interesting to note how Faith and Wesley, both introduced in Buffy Season 3, go down totally opposite paths. The bumbling, kind-hearted Wesley was tortured by the manic and suicidal Faith. However, while Faith would go on to gain some sense of stability and happiness, Wesley eventually becomes dead inside and almost as homicidal as Faith used to be. Only in a much more sinister, cold way.

What? When was Wesley even close to the degree of evilness Faith that Faith got to?

This ideology of what it meant to be a Slayer was born out of her desperate need to escape from reality and live life on the edge. Buffy had no such need. As trying as her life could be because of her position, she always had friends and a nice loving home to return to.

You might want to rewatch Anne. Whatever abuse one can think up for Faith, I for one have grave doubts she ever had it as tough as Buffy had it in Innocence, Becoming, Passion, Prophecy Girl, etc. Buffy wanted to escape reality too a number of times but unlike Faith she didn't start murdering people.

 

[Nikkolas]

But for all Faith knew the Mayor could have turned out to be a distant and cruel boss. That's why the argument "but she only wanted some companion/parent-figure/whatever" doesn't work for me. At the time Faith switched sides she knew nothing about the Mayor except that he was evil.

And if he had turned out to be a distant and cruel figure, who's to say she would have stayed sided with him? Faith was very fortunate enough to find a father figure but I think she went to him in the first place as an act of condemnation. She had killed and she felt she was now corrupt, evil. She believed it was with a corrupt and evil person she belonged.

That's my interpretation anyway. She never actually gives any reason why she went to him. Best we can do is extrapolate from her actions and dialogue in other matters.

What? When was Wesley even close to the degree of evilness Faith that Faith got to?

His little revenge rampages count. He killed for Fred, Faith killed for the Mayor. They both did it out of a rather warped kind of love.

I find Wesley more disturbing anyway.

You might want to rewatch Anne. Whatever abuse one can think up for Faith, I for one have grave doubts she ever had it as tough as Buffy had it in Innocence, Becoming, Passion, Prophecy Girl, etc. Buffy wanted to escape reality too a number of times but unlike Faith she didn't start murdering people.

I never said Buffy had a happy carefree life. But she did have a life. WHen she was done killing her boyfriend or facing down the Big Bad, she still had a loving home to return to and if she chose it, she had the company of friends who would do anything for her.

A battle is never easy but when you have something ot return to after the battle, it makes things a lot more bearable is how i see the difference between Buffy and Faith's lives.

 

[Icarium]

His little revenge rampages count. He killed for Fred, Faith killed for the Mayor. They both did it out of a rather warped kind of love.

Wesley killed someone who was evil. Faith killed a guy she didn't even know and then some other innocent people and took part in a plan to try to destroy a whole town, possibly the whole world. Apples and oranges.

I never said Buffy had a happy carefree life. But she did have a life. WHen she was done killing her boyfriend or facing down the Big Bad, she still had a loving home to return to and if she chose it, she had the company of friends who would do anything for her.

A battle is never easy but when you have something ot return to after the battle, it makes things a lot more bearable is how i see the difference between Buffy and Faith's lives.

Did you happen to forget that Joyce expelled Buffy from her home in Becoming? And as much as I loathe S7 and Empty Places in particular, even the "mutiny" didn't drive Buffy to go and offer her help to the First, did it?

And if he had turned out to be a distant and cruel figure, who's to say she would have stayed sided with him? Faith was very fortunate enough to find a father figure but I think she went to him in the first place as an act of condemnation. She had killed and she felt she was now corrupt, evil. She believed it was with a corrupt and evil person she belonged.

That's my interpretation anyway. She never actually gives any reason why she went to him. Best we can do is extrapolate from her actions and dialogue in other matters.

I am not saying Faith would have stayed with him for sure but let's think about it - what was the bad guy going to do? Most likely tell Faith to go kill some people in order to make sure she isn't just pretending to have switched sides. By the time Faith makes up her mind she would have had plenty of blood on her hands. Of course, the plot contrives to prevent Faith from killing anyone until Gradation Day, IIRC, but Faith wasn't to know that back in Consequences. So this "let's try it and see if he is not actually a nice guy, after all" doesn't work for me either.

 

[Nikkolas]

Wesley killed someone who was evil. Faith killed a guy she didn't even know and then some other innocent people and took part in a plan to try to destroy a whole town, possibly the whole world. Apples and oranges.

Didn't Wes try to murder Gunn as well? The only reason Wes didn't kill more people is because he had no reason to. He's perfectly willing and capable of doing it.

I wonder what he would have done if he could save Fred's soul at the cost of a town full of people... But that's all hypothetical.

Did you happen to forget that Joyce expelled Buffy from her home in Becoming?

Yes I did. That is my bad. I apologize.

And as much as I loathe S7 and Empty Places in particular, even the "mutiny" didn't drive Buffy to go and offer her help to the First, did it?

Well that would seem to me because Buffy and Faith have very different personalities so their reactions are different. Buffy seems to withdraw into herself generally when things get too hard.

I am not saying Faith would have stayed with him for sure but let's think about it - what was the bad guy going to do? Most likely tell Faith to go kill some people in order to make sure she isn't just pretending to have switched sides. By the time Faith makes up her mind she would have had plenty of blood on her hands. Of course, the plot contrives to prevent Faith from killing anyone until Gradation Day, IIRC, but Faith wasn't to know that back in Consequences. So this "let's try it and see if he is not actually a nice guy, after all" doesn't work for me either.

She killed the courier who brought the box o' demon spider things. I forget which episode that was.

Oh and didn't she kill the demon who was selling the Books of Ascension?

Anyway, I see your point. Her seeking out the Mayor turned out to be sort of sweet but she couldn't possibly know that at first.
My argument was just that Faith is not some evil creature. There are beings in the Buffyverse who, without rhyme or reason, were just made to kill and hurt. Faith has a reason for why she does what she does and I think understanding that is the entire purpose of her character.

She did wrong, A LOT of wrong, but in a very human way that we can sympathize with. I can anyway.

 

[Icarium]

Didn't Wes try to murder Gunn as well? The only reason Wes didn't kill more people is because he had no reason to. He's perfectly willing and capable of doing it.

Plenty of people are capable of killing when enraged and half-mad with grief. What Faith does is something much rarer, and much more despicable - murdering because it's in your self-interest to do so or because you think any random person you attack somehow deserves to be killed. Don't get me wrong, I am not excusing Wesley but I do think that he is in a totally different category than Faith as far as murders are concerned.

She killed the courier who brought the box o' demon spider things. I forget which episode that was.

Right, I had forgotten about that. And she wasn't even ordered to do it, she killed him just to suck up to the Mayor some more by showing initiative and saving him money which to me speaks volumes about Faith and her lack of morals.