How Is It All Buffy's Fault?

[BuffyThoughts]

I have a high tolerance for ambiguity. In my mind there are no problems.

Activating the Slayers was the right thing to do in S7. It was a "girl power" story.

Activating the Slayers was the wrong thing to do in S8. It was a story about the mythology of "good and evil," the old Faustian idea, the basis of all the dystopia stories, including "Serenity" and the Jasmine story line in S4 of Angel. If you go overboard to eradicate evil, you'll create a greater evil. (I'm not explaining this well, but Joss is all about this).

I just keep them separate in my mind. I feel no need to reconcile them.

 

[citiegal17]

I have a high tolerance for ambiguity. In my mind there are no problems.

Activating the Slayers was the right thing to do in S7. It was a "girl power" story.

Activating the Slayers was the wrong thing to do in S8. It was a story about the mythology of "good and evil," the old Faustian idea, the basis of all the dystopia stories, including "Serenity" and the Jasmine story line in S4 of Angel. If you go overboard to eradicate evil, you'll create a greater evil. (I'm not explaining this well, but Joss is all about this).

I just keep them separate in my mind. I feel no need to reconcile them.

Great Post! I don't think season 8 makes activating the slayers wrong, it just upset evil or made it act crazy maybe both, big surprise, NOT. However, I completley agree about Jasmine considering they very similiar stories, Angel just looks a heck of a lot better in the Jasmine storyline, what he said Peace Out to Jasmine is and what Buffy did in the Gift are what I see as heroism, which is why I won't accept his actions in season 8 as heroism.

 

[prophecygrrl]

Great Post! I don't think season 8 makes activating the slayers wrong, it just upset evil or made it act crazy maybe both, big surprise, NOT. However, I completley agree about Jasmine considering they very similiar stories, Angel just looks a heck of a lot better in the Jasmine storyline, what he said Peace Out to Jasmine is and what Buffy did in the Gift are what I see as heroism, which is why I won't accept his actions in season 8 as heroism.

Angel in Season 8 is just a mess, IMO.

He specifically tells Jasmine that "Our fate has to be our own, or we're nothing." Beautiful quotation, and completely true. We saw that theme reflected again by the end of Season 5 AtS. But then he turns around and accepts Twilight's mission in Season 8? Another reason why I more attribute his mistakes to some drastically bad OOC writing than just Angel's personal choices. He wouldn't do this.

 

[soulunsung]

Angel in Season 8 is just a mess, IMO.

He specifically tells Jasmine that "Our fate has to be our own, or we're nothing." Beautiful quotation, and completely true. We saw that theme reflected again by the end of Season 5 AtS. But then he turns around and accepts Twilight's mission in Season 8? Another reason why I more attribute his mistakes to some drastically bad OOC writing than just Angel's personal choices. He wouldn't do this.

Truthfully, I think a lot of us don't want to believe that Angel could actually be capable of doing something like this. I mean, don't get me wrong or anything, I get what you're saying and I understand it. In some ways, I even agree with you a little bit. But, I also feel like it's not just bad OOC writing or that Angel just wouldn't do this, meaning that I think he's capable and I or anyone else don't really want to believe that he could or ever would - but - it looks like he did and what if we missed it or just overlooked it and he really could or would be capable of doing this?!

Okay, all of this sounded better in my head, and now I think I'm massively confused myself. Feel free to tear what I said down, if you want to. 😉

 

[citiegal17]

Angel in Season 8 is just a mess, IMO.

He specifically tells Jasmine that "Our fate has to be our own, or we're nothing." Beautiful quotation, and completely true. We saw that theme reflected again by the end of Season 5 AtS. But then he turns around and accepts Twilight's mission in Season 8? Another reason why I more attribute his mistakes to some drastically bad OOC writing than just Angel's personal choices. He wouldn't do this.

Its not OOC that much, long before Twilight in fact in season 5, he committs murder twice(one was a hero who was an innocent Drogyn, and Lindsey who might as well be one of the soliders slaughtered in Retreat similiar cheap rationalizations for murders) all the way into NFA, he sells out, he's lies and betrays his friends with the mind rape, I geuss you could argue about Connor the writer should have come up with a better explanation, but their characterization isn't entirely off. Angel in season 5, was a compromied,a murder, who used the greater good to continue to do evil deeds or to betray people, and again people he suppostly cared about suffered because of his bad choices. I'm sympthasize though if this season upset you, but I don't think their characterizatioon is entirely off, thats why I prefer the old school Angel, the last season of ATS Angel and season 8 not really, but its my opinon, and your certainly entiled to yours.

 

[prophecygrrl]

Its not OOC that much, long before Twilight in fact in season 5, he committs murder twice(one was a hero who was an innocent Drogyn, and Lindsey who might as well be one of the soliders slaughtered in Retreat similiar cheap rationalizations for murders) all the way into NFA, he sells out, he's lies and betrays his friends with the mind rape, I geuss you could argue about Connor the writer should have come up with a better explanation, but their characterization isn't entirely off. Angel in season 5, was a compromied,a murder, who used the greater good to continue to do evil deeds or to betray people, and again people he suppostly cared about suffered because of his bad choices. I'm sympthasize though if this season upset you, but I don't think their characterizatioon is entirely off, thats why I prefer the old school Angel, the last season of ATS Angel and season 8 not really, but its my opinon, and your certainly entiled to yours.

Good points. This is a bit off topic here so I'll just post this last thing- for me, it's not so much that Angel committed an act of evil (or went along with evil, I guess technically). It's that he accepted someone else's mission. I don't see him doing that again after all those years of relying on the PTB and fate, prophecy, etc. have led to most everyone he loves getting royally screwed over. Even at his most jerk-y by the end of Season 5, he was working on his own terms. How I see it, anyway. 😛

Veering back to the thread question now lol, I think Angel's more to blame than Buffy. Buffy activating the Slayers was a bit irresponsible, but Twangel's actions were way, way worse. It's hard for me to compare both of them, but I really don't get it when people say it's all Buffy's fault. There's no doubt that Buffy will be blaming herself for everything (we saw hints of this already in the recent issues), but I don't think that's necessarily true.

 

[LadyLavinia]

So did Buffy psychically rape all those thousand of girls which she suddenly transformed into killing machines?

Buffy did not create the Slayer line, those three shamans did. Those girls were already part of the Slayer line as Potentials, when Willow activated all of them at once. Was she wrong to ask Willow to activate all of the Potentials? Maybe. Maybe not. Frankly, I'm more concerned if whether she gave those girls a choice to become part of the Slayer Army or not. Does anyone know?