How is Spike "Buffy's bitch"?

[Robb Stark]

I see this get bantered around all the time, virtually always by people who detest Spike, but I don't really think it makes an abundance of sense. Spike gets derided for supposedly being "Buffy's bitch", but...why? Because he enjoys sleeping with her? So do Angel and Riley. Because he sticks around Sunnydale just for her? So do Angel and Riley. When you think about it, all three of Buffy's major romantic arcs involve guys heavily devoted to her who tend to build their lives around her. That's not unique to Spike.

When Angel comes back from Hell, he latches onto Buffy pretty hard, and does so in the earlier seasons as well. When Riley breaks from The Initiative, his seemingly only social outlet is Buffy. Angel, Riley and Spike don't seem to have outside friends (Riley seems to, understandably, drop any association with his past buddies in The Initiative).

And, when their respective relationships with Buffy come to an end, they all break from her. Angel leaves of his own accord in S3, Riley reaches an internal impasse he can't reconcile with and leaves in S5 and when Spike is resurrected and re-coporalized in S5 of AtS, he doesn't go seeking Buffy out.

So what's the difference? Why is Spike "Buffy's bitch"? It it just used because of a general dislike of the character? I mean, if anything, for the first season Xander is Buffy's bitch. He only starts hanging around with her because he's interesting in sleeping with her, and he pulls one of the most pathetic cases of "Nice Guy Syndrome" I've ever seen.

 

[Black Eye Guy]

"I might be loves bitch, but at least I'm man enough to admit it"

He loves Buffy, thereby he is her Bitch.

I think Spike is Buffys bitch, mostly cuz he has no backbone when it comes to her.

when Spike is resurrected and re-coporalized in S5 of AtS, he doesn't go seeking Buffy out.

becasue he likes the points he scored by going out in a ball of fire. Not a great reason. I also feel and I normally hate it, although it's a method used to defend him a lot, but that was a circumstance of the show, he was only there becasue Angel was on the air and he had to be, as soon as it was possible for him to go running back to Buffy, he did and the way he did it was by finding out Twilight was Angel straight away and wanting to ride in with the answers rather then just tell her it was Angel, that need to score points like that, just seems pathetic to me.

Things like showing Buffy what Riley was doing, in the way that he did, and how it wasn't to help Buffy, but to help himself.

Also how he flat out says Buffy was in the right about how she was leading in season 7, only an idiot would think she was doing it right. The Scoobies might have been wrong in how they handled it, but Spike was also wrong in flat out denying there was something wrong, there's a difference between having someone's back and wanting the best for them, and having someone's back to make them feel like they are right, he did the latter

 

[Wesley Pryce]

I think the "double standard" mentality primarily,if not completely,comes from the feeling that Spike is a "punk" or "rebel". So people find it harder therefore to think of this "big bad" being so in love and so attached to this "girl",especially when he once wanted to brutally kill said "girl" not all that long ago. So basically i think its because people don't like to see this "rebel" become loveable,but i could be wrong. 😛 I for one liked Spike in BTVS season 5. 🙂

 

[EVIL UU]

Because he lacks agency.

Everything Spike does past season 2 is either about Buffy or involves Buffy. No, I mean everything, every decision he makes. It's Buffy, Buffy, Buffy. Obsession. Angel and Riley on the other hand are motivated by factors that don't revolve around her. Riley's the love interest with most agency, he disagrees with and confronts Buffy more than the two vampires put together. Riley, and Angel too, would not support Buffy's completely insane decisions in season 7, they'd probably tell her to get some sleep and maybe eat something, Riley would even bring the food. Spike does, no agency, no independence whatsoever, no reason - he's basically a minion.
[MENTION=11975]Robb Stark[/MENTION]

I mean, if anything, for the first season Xander is Buffy's bitch. He only starts hanging around with her because he's interesting in sleeping with her

Xander is a teenage boy, of course he wants to sleep with her - Angel, Riley and Spike are grown...well, actually - never mind. But anyway, I think that Xander hangs out with Buffy mostly because of Jesse's death. Also, there's this whole comic book superhero sidekick thing. More importantly, Xander does a lot of things explicitly against Buffy's say - for example he follows her in "The Harvest" and meets with Miss French in "Teacher's Pet" and so forth. Buffy's important to him but he menages to have a life outside of her and make his own decisions regardless of what she wants.

 

[Joan the Vampire Slayer]

Because he lacks agency.

Everything Spike does past season 2 is either about Buffy or involves Buffy. No, I mean everything, every decision he makes. It's Buffy, Buffy, Buffy. Obsession. Angel and Riley on the other hand are motivated by factors that don't revolve around her. Riley's the love interest with most agency, he disagrees with and confronts Buffy more than the two vampires put together. Riley, and Angel too, would not support Buffy's completely insane decisions in season 7, they'd probably tell her to get some sleep and maybe eat something, Riley would even bring the food. Spike does, no agency, no independence whatsoever, no reason - he's basically a minion.

I'd argue that later his actions are motivated by love, not obsession. He supports her crazy scheme in s7 out of love and loyalty, not obsession.

And why must you, when discussing Spike, compare him to Riley and and Angel?

It may seem extreme to us, but for Spike that's what love means - following and supporting, no matter what.

 

[brinkster130]

He's her bitch because everything he does revolves around her. He doesn't seem to think for himself at all -- everything comes back to Buffy for him.

Sure Angel and Riley were devoted to Buffy but both of them had the strength/balls to leave and start a life of their own when their relationships with Buffy were no longer healthy and working.

And for the record, I don't think this characteristic is only true when it comes to Buffy. Spike was the same with his mother and Dru.

 

[white avenger]

Spike refers to himself as "love's bitch," which is in no way the same thing as being Buffy's bitch. Spike's entire existence, as much as we know of it, both human and vampire, has been centered around caring for and helping some woman who he loves, whether it be his mother, Dru, Buffy, and in a different manner, Joyce and Fred. He is a romantic and probably, before regaining his soul, saw himself as some warped version of a knight protecting his lady fair.

I think that we saw that, after regaining his soul, though Spike remained loyal and supportive of Buffy, he wasn't the fixated stalker that we saw in previous Seasons. Yes, he was still nearby whenever Buffy needed him, but it was more as a friend, not as some kind of minion or whipping puppy.

 

[EVIL UU]

[MENTION=3210]Joan[/MENTION] the Vampire Slayer

And why must you, when discussing Spike, compare him to Riley and and Angel?

Because [MENTION=11975]Robb Stark[/MENTION] did it in the opening post.

He supports her crazy scheme in s7 out of love and loyalty, not obsession.

When you truly love somebody you want what is best for them, you know, at least in my opinion. Spike wants Buffy to like him, basically. I'll give you an example. Buffy pits a group of kids against an enemy that mopes the floor with her. Kids get slaughtered. Buffy wants to do it again. Spike's OK with that, he tells her to come back, take the leadership by force ( not the brightest idea with Faith and Willow around by the way ) and continue with her plan. Now, I understand that he might not care about the potentials, I don't either, but he has to realize what might happen to Buffy if this slaughter is repeated. She might just go catatonic again, her friends might abandon her, she might not even survive it.

When you support somebody's self-destruction because it makes them happy and makes them like you, it's not love as far as I'm concerned. I think that obsession is the right word, even in season 7.

 

[Black Eye Guy]

Spike refers to himself as "love's bitch," which is in no way the same thing as being Buffy's bitch. Spike's entire existence, as much as we know of it, both human and vampire, has been centered around caring for and helping some woman who he loves, whether it be his mother, Dru, Buffy, and in a different manner, Joyce and Fred. He is a romantic and probably, before regaining his soul, saw himself as some warped version of a knight protecting his lady fair.

I think that we saw that, after regaining his soul, though Spike remained loyal and supportive of Buffy, he wasn't the fixated stalker that we saw in previous Seasons. Yes, he was still nearby whenever Buffy needed him, but it was more as a friend, not as some kind of minion or whipping puppy.

Very much disagree, He is exactly that. He tries to be less violent cuz he thinks thats what she wants, she then says she wants him violent he decides to drop how he's been thinking and be more violent. He never mentions which one he wants to be, the less violent version of himself or the violent one, and his feeling dont come into play, he is willing to completely change himself for what Buffy wants him to be, he has no respect for himself and only judges himself by what Buffy thinks of him, he even takes Angels sloppy seconds after she was making out with him, after he tries to play it like he should have, he folds and wants her to stay, as much as people like to think the unhealthy relationship ended in season 6, it did not.
It ended in Chosen when he decided he wanted to stay in the cave, becasue HE wanted it, he actually disobeyed Buffy to do something he wanted to do.
They had the start of a friendship in season 7, but it wasn't to a fully functioning, healthy place yet, but by Chosen and during Angel is was in a much better place.

I know spike/Buffy fans love that basement scene, but if you look at that from just Spikes side, that the women he loves, who he got a soul for, who he's been fighting for all year drops everything to make out with Angel at the drop of a hat, even though the night before it had been all about him - if he had any respect for himself he wouldn't have let her stay, but he didn't believe he was anything without her, so couldn't risk her leaving that basement, thats why he is Buffys bitch, but I do think there was a start of a change after Chosen, but I dont think the comics have done any service to the character of Spike as a character, the main thing about Spike is Spuffy.

I hope some of the people that commented in the other thread about liking Spike but not being avid Spuffy shippers comment in this thread, cuz it's just going to be ignored by me saying it, when it 100% true.

 

[Blaze]

I sort of have a problem with this statement of him being Buffy's bitch (I'm referring strictly to souled Spike here, and whatever I say does not apply to stalker Spike from s6 and before). I've been called someone's bitch before, I don't think being in love with someone and wanting to do what you can to make that person happy qualifies as you being a bitch. People told me constantly that I was being too nice, but to that I say what is wrong with being too nice, I'm making my own decisions here and if I choose to be overly nice, than that's my problem, it doesn't make me anyone's bitch. Spike didn't call out Buffy in s7 because he thought she was right, and considering Buffy has a way of always wining, I see no reasons why Spike should feel that it's a bad idea to fallow her lead. Yes he fallowed her blindly, but that doesn't make him a bitch, it makes him trusting, it's not like he thought Buffy was wrong and just chose to not tell her, he legitimately thought she was right. Spike is a devoted romantic, he always was, with Dru, with Buffy, that doesn't make him Buffy's bitch just because he is devoted to her.

I do think s7 Spike respect himself, him "taking sloppy seconds" or him accepting Buffy's presence in the basement after she went and saw Angel doesn't make him a bitch, and it doesn't mean that he doesn't respect himself. He's friendship with Buffy in s7 is pretty complicated, I don't think it's fair to judge the way he acts, especially based on the fact that he's willing to accept that Buffy will never love him the way he loves her. I fail to see how accepting that and still being willing to fight by her side and defend her makes him her bitch. I'd like to also state that s7 Buffy does her fair share of defending Spike, I think this two just sort of banded together (not romantically).

Also, one last thing, I don't think s7 Spike is still doing stuff to get Buffy to like him. I think he's long faced the fact that she'll never love him to that extent.

 

[Joan the Vampire Slayer]

[MENTION=3210]Joan[/MENTION] the Vampire Slayer


Because [MENTION=11975]Robb Stark[/MENTION] did it in the opening post.



When you truly love somebody you want what is best for them, you know, at least in my opinion. Spike wants Buffy to like him, basically. I'll give you an example. Buffy pits a group of kids against an enemy that mopes the floor with her. Kids get slaughtered. Buffy wants to do it again. Spike's OK with that, he tells her to come back, take the leadership by force ( not the brightest idea with Faith and Willow around by the way ) and continue with her plan. Now, I understand that he might not care about the potentials, I don't either, but he has to realize what might happen to Buffy if this slaughter is repeated. She might just go catatonic again, her friends might abandon her, she might not even survive it.

When you support somebody's self-destruction because it makes them happy and makes them like you, it's not love as far as I'm concerned. I think that obsession is the right word, even in season 7.

Can you blame him? He loves her. Of course he wants her to like him.

 

[Yosso]

Interesting thread. I wouldn't go as as far to say Spike is Buffy's "bitch" as early as S2 or is about Buffy as a person per se. Spike's reason for coming to Sunnydale was to kill the Slayer, he was driven by the idea of her, the role she played as boogeyman to vampires and was interested by the challenge of facing her. That implies independent agency in my opinion.

I don't think he was even Drusilla's "bitch", he went behind Dru and Angelus' back to stop the two of them sucking the world into hell. His whole world didn't revolve around what Drusilla wanted.

As for Lover's Walk/the Antler demon flashback in "Fool for Love" , even though the flashback is trying to retcon Spuffy's relationship and imply that he's always been in love with Buffy I don't believe he is. I still think at this point that it's a fascination with Buffy's role as slayer. It's the idea of defeating another slayer that obsesses him, he's trying to keep up his track record and that is his current aim in life. He loves Drusilla and wants her back, but I still don't think he's ruled by her completely.

S4 gets a bit murkier, again he comes to Sunnydale because of Buffy's role as slayer. He gets his chip and becomes impotent. What I don't get is why he stays in Sunnydale and goes to the Scoobys for help against the commando guys. In "Pangs" it appears that they're his second resort, after Harmony. Wouldn't it make more sense to steal some blood from a hospital or a butchers or kill an animal to survive and once he's got a bit of strength back leave town and then ask somebody else for help to extract his chip? He's been around for centuries, he must have contacts.

I know, practically they just wanted Spike in the show and their reasoning behind it is a little farfetched. But Spike's desire to stay in Sunnydale in S4 doesn't seem to be about being obsessed with Buffy, he just seems to be vaguely interested in the goings on within the Scooby Gang and is fascinated by all of them as a collective. He obviously gets to know them pretty well, being able to manipulate them in "The Yoko Factor", so I still don't think he is Buffy's bitch in this season either.

In S5, then everything revolves around Buffy and I would have to admit that he is very dependent on Buffy until the end of the show, not just as a slayer but the whole package. I think what makes Spike more whipped than Riley, is that he sticks around Buffy even though she is with another man. Riley would never do that, so in that way he has more independence. Angel initiated the break-up as well, even though he could easily have stuck around for years to come, Buffy was just as dependent on him as he was on her. The same can't be said about Buffy's view on Spike in S5.

In S6, however, I wouldn't say Spike is Buffy's bitch because she depends on him to "feel". She may be using him and it may be unhealthy, but it's still a dependence. The fact that Buffy's dependence on Spike increases, reduces his role as "bitch" in this scenario. Buffy depends on Spike in S7 as a confidant too.

Overall, I think S5 is Spike's most whipped season and he certainly is a "bitch", but not at all in S2-4 and far less in S6 and 7 because of Buffy's increased dependence on him.

 

[white avenger]

he has no respect for himself and only judges himself by what Buffy thinks of him, he even takes Angels sloppy seconds after she was making out with him, after he tries to play it like he should have, he folds and wants her to stay, as much as people like to think the unhealthy relationship ended in season 6, it did not.

I know spike/Buffy fans love that basement scene, but if you look at that from just Spikes side, that the women he loves, who he got a soul for, who he's been fighting for all year drops everything to make out with Angel at the drop of a hat, even though the night before it had been all about him - if he had any respect for himself he wouldn't have let her stay, but he didn't believe he was anything without her, so couldn't risk her leaving that basement, thats why he is Buffys bitch, but I do think there was a start of a change after Chosen, but I dont think the comics have done any service to the character of Spike as a character, the main thing about Spike is Spuffy.

I hope some of the people that commented in the other thread about liking Spike but not being avid Spuffy shippers comment in this thread, cuz it's just going to be ignored by me saying it, when it 100% true.

"People who search for the negative will always manage to find it. Seeing the positive sometimes takes a bit more work, but that doesn't mean that it isn't there." Doc Savage

You might find this hard to believe, but I do, at least partially, agree with you about that scene. Spike had every right, and quite a valid reason, to not let Buffy stay with him that night (which, by the way isn't my favorite basement scene. My favorite basement scene comes the night before the final battle) I think that he confirms that with his "Angel breath" statement. But there was never any mystery about Buffy's feelings about Angel, and Spike, above all others, knows that very well. But something else had just happened, something quite significant for Spike.

For whatever reason, and that "second front" line was sheer B S of the highest degree, Buffy had sent Angel away, and had actually, for the first time, officially acknowledged Spike as her Champion. This goes back to the knight and his lady image, though I doubt that you can see it. Buffy had not only named Spike as her Champion, even if it was there in the basement, with no witnesses, she had also given him her favor, or standard (the amulet) to carry into battle. That was what won Spike over, and that, to a large degree, was why he was so anxious that she not leave, even after first insisting that she do so. Saying what he did was his way of asserting that he did, indeed, have his pride, but actually allowing her to leave would be tatamount to refusinf what he considered the honor of being her Champion.

Spike never had any delusions about the fact that Buffy would always love Angel more than she ever would him. Angel was both her first serious love and her first lover, two things thak Buffu undoubtedly would never forget, and just as undoubtedly, the standard by which she would always measure the men she loved, and the men who shared her bed. But while he had no such delusions, he did have, for the first time, the genuine hope that she would, one day, include him in those against whom Angel was measured a someone she loved, as well as a lover.

And before anyone jumps on the "No you don't, but thanks for saying it," undoubtedly all Bangels' favorite line in the entire season, that, also, fits in with the knight/Champion image. Spike is, as far as he knows, dying in the service of his lady. In that moment, he gives her the only thing that he has left to give, two things, if you consider the burning hands image as his finally being able to return to her the fire that she had sung about the year previously in "Once More With Feeling."

Telling Buffy that she actually didn't love him was his way of doing what the classic Champion is expected to do at that moment. He is sending her away, on whatever excuse he can manage (at least he isn't telling her to go and set up a second front) in order to assure her safety.

 

[Black Eye Guy]

^ Total fantasy. 🙂


" [MENTION=6758]white avenger[/MENTION] agrees: Do you argue with "STOP" signs very often? Just wondering..."

Oh please you are just as bad as me, if I'm arguing with a stop sign, your across the street arguing with a brick wall. 😉

 

[Taake]

I really think he is love's bitch a lot more than he is Buffy's. Because, as have been pointed out, his behaviour was not singular to his interactions with her. I don't think there's much he would have done for Buffy that he wouldn't have done for his mother (hello, turned her into a vampire!!!!) or Dru (when she was weak he was willing to kill Angel to restore her and at that point we were lead to believe that Angel was his 'yoda' so it would have been a pretty big deal). He got a soul for Buffy but that was because he thought that extreme was the most helpful in that instance.

Which leads me to think that any future ficticious lover of his would probably 'ensalve' him to be his bitch just as badly as all three women above have.

 

[white avenger]

^ Total fantasy. 🙂


" [MENTION=6758]white avenger[/MENTION] agrees: Do you argue with "STOP" signs very often? Just wondering..."

Oh please you are just as bad as me, if I'm arguing with a stop sign, your across the street arguing with a brick wall. 😉

No, I'm bashing my head against that brick wall, because I have to deal with people who argue with STOP signs.:nana:

 

[EVIL UU]

[MENTION=3210]Joan[/MENTION] the Vampire Slayer

Can you blame him? He loves her. Of course he wants her to like him.

Well, yeah. Her liking him is more important to him than her well-being. It's just toxic. Love is no excuse.

 

[white avenger]

[MENTION=3210]Joan[/MENTION] the Vampire Slayer


Well, yeah. Her liking him is more important to him than her well-being. It's just toxic. Love is no excuse.

Where did Spike put trying to make Buffy like him ahead of her well-being? Are you talking about their rather mutually self destructive sexcapades in Season 6, or something else? I'm not disputing what you said, I'm just trying to understand it.

THEN I may argue with you, but just as likely not. I find their relationship was always interesting, but I'm the first to admit that romance didn't flow like wine there.

 

[Gum Gnome33]

^With regard to his need to get her to like him coming before his willingness to do what was best for her, I'd say in season 6 there are clear examples of this but also there are instances in which he does what he believes is best for her in spite of what she'll think of him.

I think the two most notable examples of both of these (oppositional) characteristics are the following:

-In "Dead Things," Spike initially hides Katrina's body so that Buffy won't be able to turn herself in though she suspects that she accidentally killed her. When that fails, he tries very hard to get her not to confess to the accident and makes a strong case for it, though she is very noticeably upset and irritated with him, (even before she makes this obvious by beating him within an inch of his life).

In this case, it's very clear that Buffy neither agrees with nor respects his opinion but because he believes that what he's suggesting is the best for her (and I think there are other characters who would agree with him), he continues to insist.

-And on the other side of things, it goes without saying, but Spike's assault on Buffy in Seeing Red is a clear example of how his need to get her to like/love him outweighed his desire to keep her safe.

Anyway, those are 2 examples of his conflicting priorities.

In season 7, Spike is nobody's "bitch." He stays with Buffy because he loves her and wants to protect her from the thing that eats you with milk and cookies in the middle of the night or whatever. He leaves, protecting her, as well. And yes, I'd say that dying to save her took quite a lot of balls. 🙂 He knows when it's time for him to leave, perhaps he was needed for just a bit longer than the others. 😉

In Ats 5, he decided not to go back to her and ask her for anything. Very much not her bitch.

In the comics? I haven't been keeping up but last I read he left again because he realized that there was nothing healthy about what was going on between them and that she was clearly not ready for whatever he was, etc, etc. Is there something else going on, now?

 

[Black Eye Guy]

Where did Spike put trying to make Buffy like him ahead of her well-being?

In season 7, he tells her to go and forcibly take back power from the group. Whatever you feelings on the group kicking her out, I'd like to think we can all agree Buffy forcibly taking the group back would have been the stupidest decision ever.

In season 7, Spike is nobody's "bitch." He stays with Buffy because he loves her and wants to protect her from the thing that eats you with milk and cookies in the middle of the night or whatever. He leaves, protecting her, as well. And yes, I'd say that dying to save her took quite a lot of balls. 🙂 He knows when it's time for him to leave, perhaps he was needed for just a bit longer than the others. 😉

How can that possibly be true, when Spike continues to be trying to please her in season 7 - and thats his only goal in life, he spends the first half of the season trying to not be violent becasue it's what she wants, and when Buffy tells him to change, he does. He doesn't bother to speak up for himself, he only cares about what Buffy wants, the fact he can't be his own character, but wants to be the person she wants him to be, very clearly makes him her bitch.