How is Spike "Buffy's bitch"?

[Robb Stark]

[MENTION=6758]white avenger[/MENTION],

I've been with you most of the way this thread...until that lengthy post on the previous page.

In regards to the "...No you don't, but thanks for saying it" line, by saying Spike is only saying that to get Buffy out of that cave, you're putting an interpretation on it that isn't backed up by anything. Buffy only says "I love you" after Spike already convinces her to evacuate. She stays momentarily to say goodbye, because obviously Spike means a lot to her and it's an incredibly emotional scene of events. That doesn't cheapen what Spike says and means though.

Likewise, saying that Buffy "chose" Spike as her champion just isn't true either. She acknowledges that the time isn't right for her and Angel in "Chosen", that's very true, but why catch Angel as he's leaving just to tell him that she does think of them ending up together then? You can call it pandering to Bangel fans, you can say she's doing it to be kind to Angel, but those are interpretations that also aren't supported by the show.

This, more than ANYTHING, is the thing that bugs me about Spuffy, and this is coming from someone who actively supports and defends Spike, from someone who fully enjoys Buffy and Spike as a pairing. The need to try and make Spuffy stand against Bangel, when it is its own entity entirely. So many cite the most powerful Buffy/Spike moment as this, when she turns Angel away? WHY? Why does Buffy and Spike eternally have to compared or measured against Angel? There are SO MANY absolutely amazing Buffy/Spike moments. The end of "Chosen" is one of them, and it has nothing to do with Angel. But there are a contingent of fans who seem to think that Spuffy is somehow more meaningful or important when it stands against Angel.

I don't understand that. I LOVE Buffy and Angel as a couple, as friends, as anything together. Love them. Like, I can't even begin to describe how much I take away from those two characters and what their love is, means and symbolizes. I doubt I'll ever find a "OTP" that even comes close for me (only one that had a shot was Jack and Kate from LOST). But I don't derive any sort of extra enjoyment of them when Buffy insults Spike, or when she breaks up with Spike, or when they argue. I prefer Angel, but that doesn't take a thing in the world away from my enjoying Spike as well, or that it somehow precludes Spike's relationship with Buffy from being as special and meaningful as it is (and no, I don't think Buffy/Spike is over either). This sense of vindication that so many died-in-the-wool Spuffy's seem to need, to me, cheapens what Buffy and Spike have, because it doesn't need to be compared to Angel.

 

[white avenger]

In season 7, he tells her to go and forcibly take back power from the group. Whatever you feelings on the group kicking her out, I'd like to think we can all agree Buffy forcibly taking the group back would have been the stupidest decision ever.

No, the worst decision in Season 7 was Buffy sending Angel back to Los Angeles with the lame excuse of manning a second front. She should have let him stay and wear the amulet, then she and Spike could have moved to a castle in Scotland to build abd train a Slayer army.

 

[Black Eye Guy]

No, the worst decision in Season 7 was Buffy sending Angel back to Los Angeles with the lame excuse of manning a second front. She should have let him stay and wear the amulet, then she and Spike could have moved to a castle in Scotland to build abd train a Slayer army.

I'll just take that, deflecting, unnecessary dig at Angel as you agree with my point but couldn't say something bad about Spike.

 

[Gum Gnome33]

How can that possibly be true, when Spike continues to be trying to please her in season 7 - and thats his only goal in life, he spends the first half of the season trying to not be violent becasue it's what she wants, and when Buffy tells him to change, he does. He doesn't bother to speak up for himself, he only cares about what Buffy wants, the fact he can't be his own character, but wants to be the person she wants him to be, very clearly makes him her bitch.

First of all, when did protecting and trying to please someone become synonymous with being their "bitch?"

As for the notion that he never speaks up for himself in season 7 and can't be his own character:

SPIKE
You listen to me. (kneels in front of her) I've been alive a bit longer than you, and dead a lot longer than that. I've seen things you couldn't imagine, and done things I prefer you didn't. I don't exactly have a reputation for being a thinker. I follow my blood, which doesn't exactly rush in the direction of my brain. So I make a lot of mistakes, a lot of wrong bloody calls. (looks into her eyes) A 100+ years, and there's only one thing I've ever been sure of: you. (Buffy looks away; he reaches toward her face) Hey, look at me. I'm not asking you for anything. When I say, "I love you," it's not because I want you or because I can't have you. It has nothing to do with me. (a tear rolls down Buffy's cheek) I love what you are, what you do, how you try. I've seen your kindness and your strength. I've seen the best and the worst of you. And I understand with perfect clarity exactly what you are. You're a hell of a woman. You're the one, Buffy.


He admits his faults. Admits his shame. Professes his love and his admiration. Expresses himself clearly. He is frank, honest, and wholly supportive of Buffy.

Does the above monologue sound like something that is spoken by one who is somebody's "bitch?" Or perhaps it's something said by a person who has a great deal of love and respect for another person.

 

[EVIL UU]

[MENTION=6758]white avenger[/MENTION]
No, I'm talking about season 7. In "Empty Places" Scoobies and potentials kick Buffy out because for all intents and purposes she's a lunatic who is trying to get them killed. Buffy needs to stop, get some sleep, think about what she is doing for at least two seconds, apologize and then conciliate with the gang, like she did in season 4 for example. Here's what Spike tells her to do:

SPIKE: You were their leader and you still are. This isn't something you gave up. It's something they took.
BUFFY: And the difference is?
SPIKE: We can take it back.

He tells her to take the leadership back by force. Aside from it being completely impossible, it would also further erode Buffy's relationship with Willow, Xander, Giles and Dawn, possibly beyond the point of immediate conciliation. Ties to her friends and family are absolutely vital for Buffy, the love of those people is the only reason why she's survived for as long as she did. Spike knows that because oh, he said it himself in season 5. And yet he tries to convince Buffy to antagonize them because fueling her egomania might make her like him more.

It's toxic.

 

[Black Eye Guy]

First of all, when did protecting and trying to please someone become synonymous with being their "bitch?"

As for the notion that he never speaks up for himself in season 7 and can't be his own character:

SPIKE
You listen to me. (kneels in front of her) I've been alive a bit longer than you, and dead a lot longer than that. I've seen things you couldn't imagine, and done things I prefer you didn't. I don't exactly have a reputation for being a thinker. I follow my blood, which doesn't exactly rush in the direction of my brain. So I make a lot of mistakes, a lot of wrong bloody calls. (looks into her eyes) A 100+ years, and there's only one thing I've ever been sure of: you. (Buffy looks away; he reaches toward her face) Hey, look at me. I'm not asking you for anything. When I say, "I love you," it's not because I want you or because I can't have you. It has nothing to do with me. (a tear rolls down Buffy's cheek) I love what you are, what you do, how you try. I've seen your kindness and your strength. I've seen the best and the worst of you. And I understand with perfect clarity exactly what you are. You're a hell of a woman. You're the one, Buffy.


He admits his faults. Admits his shame. Professes his love and his admiration. Expresses himself clearly. He is frank, honest, and wholly supportive of Buffy.

Does the above monologue sound like something that is spoken by one who is somebody's "bitch?" Or perhaps it's something said by a person who has a great deal of love and respect for another person.

I dont see how that quote bears any relevance to Spike sticking up for himself, it's Spike talking about how much, and why, he loves Buffy - but thats not relevant to Spike sticking up for himself as his own character with his own opinions on himself everything in that quote is about Buffy.

I also didn't say he doesn't love and respect Buffy, it's not a one or the other thing, he can love and respect her and he can still be be her bitch.

I already gave an example of how he is willing to change his personality to suit Buffys whim, that is a perfect example of how Spike has no character backbone.

 

[white avenger]

[MENTION=6758]
She acknowledges that the time isn't right for her and Angel in "Chosen", that's very true, but why catch Angel as he's leaving just to tell him that she does think of them ending up together then? You can call it pandering to Bangel fans, you can say she's doing it to be kind to Angel, but those are interpretations that also aren't supported by the show.

I've pretty much answered everything else in other places, and I'm about to leave momentarily, but this is something that I just HAVE to comment on.

Every time this scene comes up, it's used to prove how much Buffy looks forward to some future life spent with Angel. Check the dialog carefully, and you will see that she never says anything more there than that she does sometimes think about that future time when her cookies are done and she is ready to share her life with someone. She NEVER says that she sees those cookies being shared by Angel, or anyone else specifically. Not Angel, not Spike, not Riley, not Xander, not Faith, not Satsu, or the second member of any other ship in the Buffyverse. Angel interpreted what she said as referring to him, and, while she never disputed it, she never confirmed it either.

We all know that the odds of Buffy ever settling down with anyone are only slightly better than me winning the national lottery three times in a row, so the subject is really moot anyway, but that statement is just as open for interpretation as anything that Buffy might have said to Spike there in the Hellmouth. Did she love him as a comrade in arms, as a friend, or as a potential lover? Or, was she, in fact, only lying to him in order to make his last moments better?

Neither statement is specific in content, and both statements are open to the interpretation of the viewer.

Now, if you'll excuse me, I've gotta go to the grocery store and buy eggs.

 

[Gum Gnome33]

I dont see how that quote bears any relevance to Spike sticking up for himself, it's Spike talking about how much, and why, he loves Buffy - but thats not relevant to Spike sticking up for himself as his own character with his own opinions on himself everything in that quote is about Buffy.

So here are the individual lines from the monologue which demonstrate Spike's backbone, character, independence, and self-assuredness, (all things which I think are antithetical to being someone's bitch):

"You listen to me. I've been alive a bit longer than you, and dead a lot longer than that. I've seen things you couldn't imagine, and done things I prefer you didn't.....So I make a lot of mistakes, a lot of wrong bloody calls."

-Assertiveness, admission of guilt, (which indicates character, integrity).

"100+ years, and there's only one thing I've ever been sure of: you."

-More integrity, also a reason for his devotion for her, (someone's willing slave might not be able to verbalize or even comprehend why they do what they do--I'll even grant you that that might have even applied to Spike when he was soulless, but no longer.)

"I'm not asking you for anything....When I say, "I love you," it's not because I want you or because I can't have you."

-Independence, confidence, integrity, investment in the other's well-being.


"It has nothing to do with me."

-If he were her bitch, how could he say that? Integrity, independence and confidence to the max, there.

"I love what you are, what you do, how you try. I've seen your kindness and your strength. I've seen the best and the worst of you. And I understand with perfect clarity exactly what you are. You're a hell of a woman. You're the one, Buffy."

-People who blindly follow others regardless of who they are and what they do, do not and possibly can not verbalize or even comprehend whether they do so out of respect and love or out of the need to please, (or something else entirely). They don't go out of their way to reassure, genuinely, the person who they are following. Meager attempts to reassure and thereby please their chosen ones are prevalent, (think "omigosh you're so skinny" when Regina George says she really wants to lose 3 pounds), but not declarations meant to steer the person in the right direction, solely for their benefit, like the one above.

This is a declaration of guilt and fault, and is simultaneously one of love, respect, and encouragement. Spike at once bashes himself for his past, takes himself out of the equation, and attempts to boost Buffy and her ego in order to help her regain her confidence so that she can fight and win. This is not something is that is done by those who blindly follow others.

 

[Black Eye Guy]

So here are the individual lines from the monologue which demonstrate Spike's backbone, character, independence, and self-assuredness, (all things which I think are antithetical to being someone's bitch):

"You listen to me. I've been alive a bit longer than you, and dead a lot longer than that. I've seen things you couldn't imagine, and done things I prefer you didn't.....So I make a lot of mistakes, a lot of wrong bloody calls."

-Assertiveness, admission of guilt, (which indicates character, integrity).

"100+ years, and there's only one thing I've ever been sure of: you."

-More integrity, also a reason for his devotion for her, (someone's willing slave might not be able to verbalize or even comprehend why they do what they do--I'll even grant you that that might have even applied to Spike when he was soulless, but no longer.)

"I'm not asking you for anything....When I say, "I love you," it's not because I want you or because I can't have you."

-Independence, confidence, integrity, investment in the other's well-being.


"It has nothing to do with me."

-If he were her bitch, how could he say that? Integrity, independence and confidence to the max, there.

"I love what you are, what you do, how you try. I've seen your kindness and your strength. I've seen the best and the worst of you. And I understand with perfect clarity exactly what you are. You're a hell of a woman. You're the one, Buffy."

-People who blindly follow others regardless of who they are and what they do, do not and possibly can not verbalize or even comprehend whether they do so out of respect and love or out of the need to please, (or something else entirely). They don't go out of their way to reassure, genuinely, the person who they are following. Meager attempts to reassure and thereby please their chosen ones are prevalent, (think "omigosh you're so skinny" when Regina George says she really wants to lose 3 pounds), but not declarations meant to steer the person in the right direction, solely for their benefit, like the one above.

This is a declaration of guilt and fault, and is simultaneously one of love, respect, and encouragement. Spike at once bashes himself for his past, takes himself out of the equation, and attempts to boost Buffy and her ego in order to help her regain her confidence so that she can fight and win. This is not something is that is done by those who blindly follow others.

Once again, no one said blindly followed. They said he's her bitch. Your slipping in slight alterations to the original statement to make it a Spuffy issue, but it's not this is a Spike issue.

Does Spike want to be kind and gentle?
Does he want to be violent?
Does he want to go out and fight demons to make the world safer?
Does he want to stay home and keep to himself, give up on fighting?

We dont know the answer to any of these questions because they change depending on Buffys mood.
We know Willow wants to fight, we know Xander and Dawn want out of the fight, if asked Spike's answer would be "What does Buffy want me to do?"

Your quote above shows that Spike understands Buffy in a way few other people, what it doesn't answer is Does Spike know who he is. He measures himself by Buffy, and not in a general inspired by her to do good, but he measures precisely, like in a 'what is the minimum amount of good Buffy will allow for him to earn a point' kinda way.

In his redemption story the only person he cared that he hurt is Buffy, all the rest he murdered or tortured dont matter, and the reason for that is the only subject matter Spike is given to care about is Buffy. Spike has no story by himself, there is little to none of him dealing with having a soul and how that effects him, Spikes soul story is it's effect on Buffys effect on him.
In Chosen he says he feels him soul for the first time, he's actually thinking for himself, doing things for himself, doing good for the first time for a good reason, not for a reward just becasue he is good, and in Angel he grows he shows remorse for the bad things he's done in general. Whenever Spike is around Buffy, Spike doesn't matter. Spuffy is more of a character then Spike is.

---------- Post added at 06:17 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:14 PM ----------

I've pretty much answered everything else in other places, and I'm about to leave momentarily, but this is something that I just HAVE to comment on.

Every time this scene comes up, it's used to prove how much Buffy looks forward to some future life spent with Angel. Check the dialog carefully, and you will see that she never says anything more there than that she does sometimes think about that future time when her cookies are done and she is ready to share her life with someone. She NEVER says that she sees those cookies being shared by Angel, or anyone else specifically. Not Angel, not Spike, not Riley, not Xander, not Faith, not Satsu, or the second member of any other ship in the Buffyverse. Angel interpreted what she said as referring to him, and, while she never disputed it, she never confirmed it either.

We all know that the odds of Buffy ever settling down with anyone are only slightly better than me winning the national lottery three times in a row, so the subject is really moot anyway, but that statement is just as open for interpretation as anything that Buffy might have said to Spike there in the Hellmouth. Did she love him as a comrade in arms, as a friend, or as a potential lover? Or, was she, in fact, only lying to him in order to make his last moments better?

Neither statement is specific in content, and both statements are open to the interpretation of the viewer.

Now, if you'll excuse me, I've gotta go to the grocery store and buy eggs.

Gotta love the logic of saying this scene should be looked at in detail to see she doesn't exactly say she wants Angel specifically, when a few posts back you claim the same scene is Buffy declaring Spike as her champion and her choosing Spike over Angel, maybe you should look at that part of the scene with the same detailed look you look at the cookie speech with, might help to keep those imagined parts to a minimum?

 

[Gum Gnome33]

Once again, no one said blindly followed. They said he's her bitch. Your slipping in slight alterations to the original statement to make it a Spuffy issue, but it's not this is a Spike issue.

Blindly following is what someone does when they are somebody's "bitch," at least that's how I understand it. I was not altering the original statement, (how is he her bitch), but defining the term "bitch."

As for turning it into a Spuffy argument, well, first of all I really don't care what you want to call it but the issue involves the relationship of Spike and Buffy so there is at least an element of Spuffy there. 🙂

We know Willow wants to fight, we know Xander and Dawn want out of the fight, if asked Spike's answer would be "What does Buffy want me to do?"

Yes and as I attempted to illustrate above, Spike wonders what Buffy would want him to do not because he is her bitch, (not because he blindly follows her without understanding why), but because he respects, trusts, and wishes to honor her. There is a huge difference.

Your quote above shows that Spike understands Buffy in a way few other people, what it doesn't answer is Does Spike know who he is. He measures himself by Buffy, and not in a general inspired by her to do good, but he measures precisely, like in a 'what is the minimum amount of good Buffy will allow for him to earn a point' kinda way.

That just isn't true in season 7. In seasons 5 and 6, yes. His whole understanding of morality is based on Buffy's approval and the things he does most OFTEN are to win her approval, (although explain how he's doing this when she's dead).

The point is: in season 7, as demonstrated in the monologue I've quoted, Spike very much is no longer measuring himself by Buffy. That's the whole point of the speech. Again:

"I've been alive a bit longer than you, and dead a lot longer than that. I've seen things you couldn't imagine, and done things I prefer you didn't. I don't exactly have a reputation for being a thinker. I follow my blood, which doesn't exactly rush in the direction of my brain. So I make a lot of mistakes, a lot of wrong bloody calls."

This is a confession of guilt, of past mistakes, of wrongness long before Buffy even EXISTED. As he says later in the speech, what he wants has "nothing to do with (Buffy)." He is no longer measuring himself by her or by her approval.

In his redemption story the only person he cared that he hurt is Buffy, all the rest he murdered or tortured dont matter,

Granted we are shown very little of his actual struggle, there is just nowhere in canon where it's mentioned or confirmed that his ONLY regrets have to do with what he did to Buffy. In fact there's plenty of evidence to the contrary:

When he accidentally kills Ronnie (the worm) he is beyond devastated and clicks back into his insane rantings and ticks, (undoubtedly a result of the guilt he feels with his new soul). When he realizes finally that the First is getting him to kill, (in the basement with those he's buried), he begs Buffy to kill him. Presumably, that is because he feels incredibly guilty for what he's done, but I'm no psychologist. 😉

In another basement scene, he asks Buffy to kill him again. This time, because he believes he's a threat to everyone else. To get her to do it, he cites the things (or tries to) that he did to girls who were Dawn's age. Not only is he aware of what he's done, but he shows obvious remorse for it and requests to be put out of his misery.

So there are a few concrete examples of Spike post-soul, regretting a lot more than what, specifically, he did to Buffy.

Spike has no story by himself, there is little to none of him dealing with having a soul and how that effects him,

It's true that we're shown little of how the soul affects him. But there is a certain amount of screen time devoted to it so why do we assume he doesn't care? We've seen exactly one other vampire plagued with a new soul and we know that it took him the better part of a century to truly repent.

 

[Blaze]

Once again, no one said blindly followed. They said he's her bitch. Your slipping in slight alterations to the original statement to make it a Spuffy issue, but it's not this is a Spike issue.

Does Spike want to be kind and gentle?
Does he want to be violent?
Does he want to go out and fight demons to make the world safer?
Does he want to stay home and keep to himself, give up on fighting?

We dont know the answer to any of these questions because they change depending on Buffys mood.
We know Willow wants to fight, we know Xander and Dawn want out of the fight, if asked Spike's answer would be "What does Buffy want me to do?"

Why does everything have to be about fighting. It's pretty clear that Spike isn't a fighter per say, he never was. He never was interested in making the world better or worst, he was interested in love, that is his personality, he was always like that. As a human and as a vamp with a soul, Spike did want to be kind (and he was kind). I don't think making the world safer is his priority, but I'm pretty sure it wasn't Xander and Willow's priority until they met Buffy. Spike only really had 1 season to decide what his position was in the world, of course a lot of it is going to rely on Buffy, the only familiar person he had during the transition of unsouled to souled. Angel had years to figure out how he wanted to be redeemed, Spike didn't have that, he got pushed right into it. I don't think Spike was ever really interested in fighting, he was interesting in living his life, but at the time Buffy was a big part of his life and he decided to help her out, how does that make him a someone's bitch. Is he Angel's bitch on AtS just because he decides to help them out because it's the right thing to do? I don't think so.

I think people are confusing Spike's romantic personality to him having no personality. Buffy doesn't define him, but love does, and that's something that I can empathise with because I'd do anything for my friends, my family, and whoever I love. So no Spike isn't interested in changing the world, unless it involves those he cares about, and most importantly, he doesn't want the world to go to shit because that would mean that the things he loves are gone, like Dru in s2, or Buffy in s7, or the reason he stayed in LA to fight in s5. See, Spike's personality is based on others because he is social, he relies on his relationship with others to lead his life, and there's nothing wrong with that, plenty of people are like that. Spike is a fallower, yes, but again bitch =/= fallower. Spike was never a leader, and he wouldn't work well as a leader, but it does work at his best under someone's command, whether it is Buffy or Angel, he is at his best working with someone else.

And also, I'm pretty sure if Spike was asked about fighting, he wouldn't just say what does Buffy want me to do, or else the whole speech in "touched" is irrelevant, because Buffy gave up and Spike didn't, but by your affirmation Spike should have also gave up at that moment.

 

[Gum Gnome33]

I think people are confusing Spike's romantic personality to him having no personality.

Nail. Head. You hit it. 🙂

 

[Black Eye Guy]

Blindly following is what someone does when they are somebody's "bitch," at least that's how I understand it. I was not altering the original statement, (how is he her bitch), but defining the term "bitch."

I tried googling the phase to find a meaning, this is the closest to what I think it means:
"Someone who gets treated with little respect and has to follow every order, a servant/slave. It's typically used humorously and isn't very offensive, at least not in my book. "
This is exactly it, the way you were wording it, to follow someone blindly means that the person doing the following sees no wrong in the person they are following, I dont think thats Spike, but I do think he's treated with very little respect from Buffy, as was everyone, and he still did all orders no questions asked.

As for turning it into a Spuffy argument, well, first of all I really don't care what you want to call it but the issue involves the relationship of Spike and Buffy so there is at least an element of Spuffy there. 🙂

But the issue doesn't involve their relationship, it should only involve Spike, the fact that it's so hard to untangle Spike from a Spuffy story speaks volumes.

Yes and as I attempted to illustrate above, Spike wonders what Buffy would want him to do not because he is her bitch, (not because he blindly follows her without understanding why), but because he respects, trusts, and wishes to honor her. There is a huge difference.

I think the same, but I think the person being someones bitch is capable of feeling that way and still being a bitch. Buffy was treating everyone like crap, Spike didn't have a problem with it, when he should have had the most problem:

BUFFY
Just said it. You keep holding back, you might as well walk out that door.

SPIKE
Holding back? You're blind. I've been here, right in it"”fighting, scrapping...

BUFFY
Since you got your soul back?

SPIKE
Well, as a matter of fact, I haven't quite been relishing the kill the way I used to.

BUFFY
You were a better fighter then.

SPIKE
I did this for you. The soul, the changes"”it's what you wanted.

He got a soul for her, he's less violent for her. She says he should be more like the person who tried to rape her - he should have been so insulted by that, that should have a been a slap in the face to him, but it wasn't becasue he's used to being treated like crap by Buffy.

That just isn't true in season 7. In seasons 5 and 6, yes. His whole understanding of morality is based on Buffy's approval and the things he does most OFTEN are to win her approval, (although explain how he's doing this when she's dead).

The point is: in season 7, as demonstrated in the monologue I've quoted, Spike very much is no longer measuring himself by Buffy. That's the whole point of the speech. Again:

It is true in season 7, the quote above is an example of it, as is him taking the amulet. He wants to help, and he's willing to put up with all of Buffys crap to get approval, even though she disrespects him, he can't back her up and try and make her see things better, he encourages her down a bad path, by trying to get her to take back the team by force.

Granted we are shown very little of his actual struggle, there is just nowhere in canon where it's mentioned or confirmed that his ONLY regrets have to do with what he did to Buffy. In fact there's plenty of evidence to the contrary:

no where does it say otherwise.

When he accidentally kills Ronnie (the worm) he is beyond devastated and clicks back into his insane rantings and ticks, (undoubtedly a result of the guilt he feels with his new soul). When he realizes finally that the First is getting him to kill, (in the basement with those he's buried), he begs Buffy to kill him. Presumably, that is because he feels incredibly guilty for what he's done, but I'm no psychologist. 😉

In another basement scene, he asks Buffy to kill him again. This time, because he believes he's a threat to everyone else. To get her to do it, he cites the things (or tries to) that he did to girls who were Dawn's age. Not only is he aware of what he's done, but he shows obvious remorse for it and requests to be put out of his misery.

So there are a few concrete examples of Spike post-soul, regretting a lot more than what, specifically, he did to Buffy.

All stuff after he got a soul, I said he shows little to no concern for the thousands he's killed in the past, the only thing he cares about from soulless spike is what he did for Buffy, and before anyone says he shouldn't have to he's a different person, if he feels bad for what he did to Buffy there should be no reason not to feel just as bad for the other stuff.

Why does everything have to be about fighting. It's pretty clear that Spike isn't a fighter per say, he never was. He never was interested in making the world better or worst, he was interested in love, that is his personality, he was always like that. As a human and as a vamp with a soul, Spike did want to be kind (and he was kind). I don't think making the world safer is his priority, but I'm pretty sure it wasn't Xander and Willow's priority until they met Buffy. Spike only really had 1 season to decide what his position was in the world, of course a lot of it is going to rely on Buffy, the only familiar person he had during the transition of unsouled to souled. Angel had years to figure out how he wanted to be redeemed, Spike didn't have that, he got pushed right into it. I don't think Spike was ever really interested in fighting, he was interesting in living his life, but at the time Buffy was a big part of his life and he decided to help her out, how does that make him a someone's bitch. Is he Angel's bitch on AtS just because he decides to help them out because it's the right thing to do? I don't think so.

I didn't mean to say that Spike should want to fight, and he's not as good if he doesn't, I mean we dont know which one he wants.
If like you said you think he wants to stop fighting, then the fact he keeps doing it even when Buffy isn't around runs contrary to that.

I think people are confusing Spike's romantic personality to him having no personality. Buffy doesn't define him, but love does,

Love is definitely a big part of his character, but it's not like he has a lot of friends, or loves a lot of people. It's not like he has a lot of love to give and helps people in any way he can, he's love is obsessive and directed, his mother, Dru and Buffy all 3 have the same pattern, and I think the fact it's focused on 1 person at the time, takes away fom the idea that love is his personality, fixated obsession/love is his personality.

Spike was never a leader, and he wouldn't work well as a leader, but it does work at his best under someone's command, whether it is Buffy or Angel, he is at his best working with someone else.

100% agree, but there is a huge difference to Spike under Angels leadership, he actually grows as a person during that season, whereas Buffy stops him from growing.

And also, I'm pretty sure if Spike was asked about fighting, he wouldn't just say what does Buffy want me to do, or else the whole speech in "touched" is irrelevant, because Buffy gave up and Spike didn't, but by your affirmation Spike should have also gave up at that moment.

That speech is about Buffy, not him. He doesn't give up on Buffy, Buffy hasn't given up the fight she's given up on herself, if she'd said the same thing a day before while still believing in herself, he would not have given the same speech.

 

[Kean]

To me, Spike has no idea who he is as an individual. Every iteration of Spike we have seen on the show has been an example of Spike in relation to another person; his mother, Cecily, Dru, Buffy, and Angel. Depending on who is the main figure in his life, he adopts an identity that is most likely to encourage that person to keep him in their life.

Over 9 seasons of tv and comics, we still have no idea who Spike is. If we were to talk about what Spike is "about" or what his purpose is, it will come back to Buffy. If we ask what his purpose was, it comes back to Drusilla. Even the traits he is known for are largely affectations used to create a persona. This is probably the main reason I don't like him.

 

[brinkster130]

Why does everything have to be about fighting. It's pretty clear that Spike isn't a fighter per say, he never was. He never was interested in making the world better or worst, he was interested in love, that is his personality, he was always like that.

I think people are confusing Spike's romantic personality to him having no personality. Buffy doesn't define him, but love does

True, and that's what people are arguing, that Spikes entire self is 100% connected to whoever he is currently in love (or obsessed) with. We saw him as a man child mamas boy, then William the bloody one of the most dangerous vampires, and now as a souled sidekick to Buffy.

I don't think labeling Spike as "Buffy's Bitch" is malicious as some are interpreting it. It certainly isn't a flattering label, but I don't think it is a necessarily negative description.
It's just a dominate characteristic of his to define himself based on someone else's judgment.

 

[Gum Gnome33]

This is exactly it, the way you were wording it, to follow someone blindly means that the person doing the following sees no wrong in the person they are following, I dont think thats Spike, but I do think he's treated with very little respect from Buffy, as was everyone, and he still did all orders no questions asked.

I agree that this describes him in earlier seasons, but not in season 7. In any case the way I see it, being someone's "bitch" means that the person in question doesn't give any thought to why he/she is following the person of their interest and may not even understand why in the first place. There's nothing intellectual or earned about it, and it's not particularly respectable. The person in question doesn't "think for himself" and that's why I referred to it as "following blindly."

But the issue doesn't involve their relationship,

I think if we are trying to figure out whether he is her bitch, we are by definition asking what his relationship to her is, and cannot bypass the exact nature of their relationship when doing so.

Buffy was treating everyone like crap, Spike didn't have a problem with it, when he should have had the most problem:

I totally agree that in the scene in question, Spike really should have been insulted, upset, and defiant after Buffy demanded that he be the old Spike. I just think that is one example of his willingness to do as she says without reason, (like all of the scoobies did before they kicked her out of her home). It doesn't make him her bitch, it makes him guilty of not standing up for himself on one particular occasion.

as is him taking the amulet. He wants to help, and he's willing to put up with all of Buffys crap to get approval,

So when Willow takes Buffy's scythe and does the spell to turn the potentials, when Faith takes it, when Xander refuses to leave and insists on fighting the last battle, are all of these characters Buffy's bitches, too? If the definition is taking the tools she gives them and agreeing to go into battle, (not to mention putting up with all of her crap), then certainly those three characters at the very least are Buffy's bitches.

even though she disrespects him,

I mean we can argue about whether Buffy loves him or whether she sees him merely as a friend but do you really believe she actually disrespects him in season 7?

I don't even think she disrespects him when he's evil, and then certainly not when he starts doing some good things (like taking care of her mother and Dawn for example), and certainly not in season 7 when she wants him to hold her and asks him not to leave her side. (Touched, First Date).

Maybe you meant that she doesn't treat him with respect occasionally? That I can agree with. I mean I think she treats almost everyone without respect at some point in that season but I think she still greatly respects those who she mistreats. Giles is a great example of this.

he can't back her up and try and make her see things better,

I believe that his monologue in Touched does just this.

by trying to get her to take back the team by force.

Hm when does he try to get her to take back the team by force? I don't remember this. I remember saying she should "take back" her role as a leader but I hardly think that implies force. Just courage, conviction, and a lot more of her infamous monologues. 🙂 Sure he offers to kill Faith for her, but he's joking! Sort of.

All stuff after he got a soul, I said he shows little to no concern for the thousands he's killed in the past, the only thing he cares about from soulless spike is what he did for Buffy, and before anyone says he shouldn't have to he's a different person, if he feels bad for what he did to Buffy there should be no reason not to feel just as bad for the other stuff.

So I think you might have missed the part in my previous post where I referenced three distinct occasions in season 7 where he demonstrates that he feels very guilty and remorseful for the things he did while soulless that have nothing to do with what he did to Buffy...?

Love is definitely a big part of his character, but it's not like he has a lot of friends, or loves a lot of people. It's not like he has a lot of love to give and helps people in any way he can, he's love is obsessive and directed, his mother, Dru and Buffy all 3 have the same pattern, and I think the fact it's focused on 1 person at the time, takes away fom the idea that love is his personality, fixated obsession/love is his personality.

I think the idea here is that when he loves someone, he loves almost to a fault. Surely when he's soulless that love is obsessive and possessive and it does bring him to do some good deeds in season 6 but ultimately it is still entirely unhealthy. In season 7 however, he loves fully, with his whole being, and the love is based on respect, trust, and understanding.

I understand what you mean when you say that his fixation on one person at a time arguably makes less of a case for a generally loving personality. I think that's fair. So maybe we can say that he is devoted, (I mean when he has his soul).

 

[Black Eye Guy]

I agree that this describes him in earlier seasons, but not in season 7.

Do you have any examples of how Spike didn't do all of Buffys orders bar in Chosen?

I think if we are trying to figure out whether he is her bitch, we are by definition asking what his relationship to her is, and cannot bypass the exact nature of their relationship when doing so.

I totally agree that in the scene in question, Spike really should have been insulted, upset, and defiant after Buffy demanded that he be the old Spike. I just think that is one example of his willingness to do as she says without reason, (like all of the scoobies did before they kicked her out of her home). It doesn't make him her bitch, it makes him guilty of not standing up for himself on one particular occasion.

I could argue the exact same point, you've given 1 scene in which he gives that speech to Buffy you've given no other examples.

So when Willow takes Buffy's scythe and does the spell to turn the potentials, when Faith takes it, when Xander refuses to leave and insists on fighting the last battle, are all of these characters Buffy's bitches, too? If the definition is taking the tools she gives them and agreeing to go into battle, (not to mention putting up with all of her crap), then certainly those three characters at the very least are Buffy's bitches.

They didn't put up with her crap, they kicked her out. They got their asses handed to them and luckily at the time they reconciled with Buffy she'd also realised she was being an ass and she'd changed her approach. When Buffy treats them like crap, they didn't take it, and cuz they did that she changed her approach, once she treats them better they are willing to fight for her. Spike is willing to take her crap and never stick up for himself cuz he's to afraid of the consequences.

I mean we can argue about whether Buffy loves him or whether she sees him merely as a friend but do you really believe she actually disrespects him in season 7?

I don't even think she disrespects him when he's evil, and then certainly not when he starts doing some good things (like taking care of her mother and Dawn for example), and certainly not in season 7 when she wants him to hold her and asks him not to leave her side. (Touched, First Date).

Maybe you meant that she doesn't treat him with respect occasionally? That I can agree with. I mean I think she treats almost everyone without respect at some point in that season but I think she still greatly respects those who she mistreats. Giles is a great example of this.

She absolutely has disrespected him lots of times, telling him he's beneath her, using him in season 6 and demanding he be more like the unsouled Spike are the biggest ones that jump out to me.
I dont see how getting him to hold her is respecting him, thats using him, it's something she wants and she knows his feelings.

I believe that his monologue in Touched does just this.

That monologue you quoted is part of an overall speech, the same speech he tells her to forcibly take back power from her friends - that is not helping her overall, that is telling her to force her friends to do something and he'll help beat them up.

Hm when does he try to get her to take back the team by force? I don't remember this. I remember saying she should "take back" her role as a leader but I hardly think that implies force. Just courage, conviction, and a lot more of her infamous monologues. 🙂 Sure he offers to kill Faith for her, but he's joking! Sort of.

SPIKE
You were their leader, and you still are. This isn't something you gave up, it's something they took.

BUFFY
(looks at him) And the difference is?

SPIKE
We can take it back.


The wording of it being something they took, and something they (not her, they) can take back implies force. Especially since he says they, if he wanted Buffy to reconnect with her friends and prove to be a better leader that wouldn't involve Spike, he'd been pat of the problem for some of the gang and new potentials, if they wanted to approach it logically Spike wouldn't be included in Buffy getting control back - unless their taking it by force, then he has a use.

So I think you might have missed the part in my previous post where I referenced three distinct occasions in season 7 where he demonstrates that he feels very guilty and remorseful for the things he did while soulless that have nothing to do with what he did to Buffy...?

I didn't which is why when I responded I said "All stuff after he got a soul, I said he shows little to no concern for the thousands he's killed in the past" and by past I said pre-soul, he shows little to no concern for his past pre-soul except for what he did to Buffy.


I think the idea here is that when he loves someone, he loves almost to a fault. Surely when he's soulless that love is obsessive and possessive and it does bring him to do some good deeds in season 6 but ultimately it is still entirely unhealthy. In season 7 however, he loves fully, with his whole being, and the love is based on respect, trust, and understanding.

I understand what you mean when you say that his fixation on one person at a time arguably makes less of a case for a generally loving personality. I think that's fair. So maybe we can say that he is devoted, (I mean when he has his soul).[/QUOTE]

I very much agree with this (yay, something!), I think he's very devoted, I phrased it as obsesses/loves becasue I dont think calling it flat out obsession is fair in season 7, previously absolutely, but in season 7 it's devotion, but I also think like you said, he loves, to a fault. And that fault, for me, is at the expense of himself and his own growth. He absolutely respects Buffy, but I do not think Buffy respected him until Chosen, moments where she's respected him, absolutely, but overall as a person she does not respect him till he proved he was worth respecting in Chosen, which is why she never said I love you to him before. I dont think she meant it, but I also dont think she'd have said it lightly, and I dont think she would have said it if she didn't respect him, and thats why it wasn't said in Touched or that last night in the basement, but after actually proves he's someone that can be respected in Chosen.

---------- Post added at 01:06 AM ---------- Previous post was at 01:00 AM ----------

Oh forgot to mention in regard to the wanting whats best for he, he's put off by the fact that she went and got the scythe by herself, and makes jokes about how she's back with her friends so her night with him was a glitch, he's not happy she got the scythe or managed to connect with her friends, he's pissed he wasn't included.

 

[Joan the Vampire Slayer]

All this has turned into is another Let's Bash Spike thread.

So what if Spike is Buffy's "bitch", anyway? We love him anyway.

 

[Black Eye Guy]

All this has turned into is another Let's Bash Spike thread.

Pointing out a characters flaws isn't bashing, and calling it bashing is just trying to undermine the person arguing against you by discrediting their opinion.

So what if Spike is Buffy's "bitch", anyway? We love him anyway.

Exactly, the thread was started by someone who is a Spike fan, the only people not accepting it are Spike fans, the only reason it became a discussion is becasue once anything negative is said about Spike, it's defended to the ground or called bashing.

No one really said it was a negative, it's not the most flattering of titles but it's not a huge negative.

 

[white avenger]

He got a soul for her, he's less violent for her. She says he should be more like the person who tried to rape her - he should have been so insulted by that, that should have a been a slap in the face to him, but it wasn't becasue he's used to being treated like crap by Buffy.

Actually, Buffy said that she wanted Spike to be more like the person who almost killed her when they first met. Why would she want him to be like her attempted rapist again?