How is Spike "Buffy's bitch"?

[Black Eye Guy]

Actually, Buffy said that she wanted Spike to be more like the person who almost killed her when they first met. Why would she want him to be like her attempted rapist again?

Because pre-soul they were the same person.

 

[Gum Gnome33]

Do you have any examples of how Spike didn't do all of Buffys orders bar in Chosen?...I could argue the exact same point, you've given 1 scene in which he gives that speech to Buffy you've given no other examples.

Very fair point, I didn't give you more than one concrete example. The problem is that in season 7, Buffy and Spike are almost always in in accord with one another. When she tells Spike to revert to his former self, I believe that's the only time they are actually at odds, (he actively disagrees with her), and as you pointed out, he does as she asks.

What I look at this season, (where I'm coming from), is based on the very fact that the two are in such accord. He isn't her bitch because when he follows her he does it from a place of self actualization and self realization, (for the first time--maybe ever?) Granted he is just a shadow of who he'll eventually become after just getting his soul back, but he is finally self aware, (he describes this revelation to her in that episode where he's tied up in a chair in Joyce's bedroom), and his actions that season are either decisions which are later confirmed by Buffy to be appealing to her, or he does what she asks because he can wrap his head around her logic and agree with it.

For example: right before he's captured by the bringers, he's asked Buffy to kill him for the 2nd time I think. She gives this lengthy monologue as to why she won't do that; how she knows that he can be a good man. Then, after he's been captured, he fights to stay alive, reassuring himself (and the First I guess), that she will come for him, because she believes in him. I truly don't think he'd have come to that conclusion while soulless.

So the same guy who'd just asked for the release of death an episode earlier is now fighting for his life because Buffy's convinced him it was worth living. But he isn't doing it because he's her bitch--he isn't even completely doing it for her. He's doing it because he understands what she means, and he's deciding to agree with her.

They didn't put up with her crap, they kicked her out. They got their asses handed to them and luckily at the time they reconciled with Buffy she'd also realised she was being an ass and she'd changed her approach. When Buffy treats them like crap, they didn't take it, and cuz they did that she changed her approach, once she treats them better they are willing to fight for her.

Ok so you're saying that as long as they stand up to her at some point along the way, even though they ultimately do her bidding they're not her bitches? I can get behind this, it's a fair point.

But again I'll say that by contrast, even though Spike doesn't stand UP to Buffy in season 7, he actually agrees with her throughout the entire season with the exception of that episode we mentioned above. So it's sort of comparing apples to oranges. Does that make sense? I mean if he'd had legitimate issues with any of her planning and then didn't stand up to her, repeatedly, I'd say he was more likely to be, well, bitch-like. But, again, it's clear to me that he sees eye-to-eye with her most of the time, and standing up to her isn't necessary.

She absolutely has disrespected him lots of times, telling him he's beneath her, using him in season 6

Oh yes I agree completely that she doesn't treat him with respect in season 6, most of the time, but I would argue that she does respect him.

I dont see how getting him to hold her is respecting him, thats using him, it's something she wants and she knows his feelings.

So I mean that she respects him, in general, and that she wouldn't ask a man she didn't respect to share her bed in a loving, healthy way. I think she is disrespectful toward him in the instance where she tells him to go back to his old self, but again, respects him very much especially in season 7.

To make things clear, what I mean to say is that having respect for someone and acting disrespectful toward them can be entirely different things.

The wording of it being something they took, and something they (not her, they) can take back implies force. Especially since he says they, if he wanted Buffy to reconnect with her friends and prove to be a better leader that wouldn't involve Spike, he'd been pat of the problem for some of the gang and new potentials, if they wanted to approach it logically Spike wouldn't be included in Buffy getting control back - unless their taking it by force, then he has a use.

I can't argue with you if you see it this way but suffice it to say there is no actual evidence that Spike intends for her to beat up her friends. He said that they could, together, take back control and I picture it as Spike having her back as Buffy walks back into her own home and states her case.

I didn't which is why when I responded I said "All stuff after he got a soul, I said he shows little to no concern for the thousands he's killed in the past" and by past I said pre-soul, he shows little to no concern for his past pre-soul except for what he did to Buffy.

Ok I think we got our wires crossed there. I was specifically referring to Spike post-soul and you meant pre-soul. Yes, pre-soul he only expressed remorse for what he'd done to Buffy, that's true. But post-soul he was remorseful in general, for what he'd done in the past.

I'm not surprised that while still soulless he didn't, (couldn't?) express remorse for the things he'd done even though he'd made progress in his character and his understanding of morality. His motives were still mostly selfish, (save that summer when Buffy was dead), and so his regret centered around the object of his affection.

 

[Blaze]

I didn't mean to say that Spike should want to fight, and he's not as good if he doesn't, I mean we dont know which one he wants.
If like you said you think he wants to stop fighting, then the fact he keeps doing it even when Buffy isn't around runs contrary to that.

I didn't say he wants to stop fighting, I said that Spike is not a fighter per say, but will fight if the world is in real danger. Spike doesn't want the world to end, even as a evil vampire. So in AtS, he'll definitely fight for the greater good, I just think he is less driven by doing general act of goodness, like helping the helpless. He's more about fighting the fight in general. He's all about defending the world as he knows it, he goes for the top dog, he's rarely shown doing stuff like patrolling, but he's always shown to help when it matters. So no, I don't think he wants to stop fighting, I just don't think he's in the league of Buffy or Angel when it comes to fighting.

Love is definitely a big part of his character, but it's not like he has a lot of friends, or loves a lot of people. It's not like he has a lot of love to give and helps people in any way he can, he's love is obsessive and directed, his mother, Dru and Buffy all 3 have the same pattern, and I think the fact it's focused on 1 person at the time, takes away fom the idea that love is his personality, fixated obsession/love is his personality.

He wasn't ever given a chance to built up relationships on Buffy, the gang already hated him (for good reason). Actually Spike for the most part is a bit of a recluse (even more so as William), but I'll defend that in s7, none of his love is obsessive, he actually wants to leave Sunnydale and Buffy doesn't want him too. Of course his love will be directed to her, she's the only one he got in Sunnydale. As a vampire, I'd defend that his love was dedicated to the fang four, not just Dru (although he obviously loved Dru in a different way), and as William he's shown to show interest in others, even if he is devoted to his mom (which yes was borderline creepy). Also, I'd like to state that Spike is shown to care a great deal about Dawn. Some will say it's simply because of Buffy, but I do think he cares for her. Bottom line, I don't think his relations in s7 and s5 of AtS have anything obsessive about them. Imagine if we erased everything from s6 and before, and you'd only watch s7, I doupt that anyone would have anything bad to say about Spike's love for Buffy, they would just see a guy that deeply care for Buffy and that is willing to go the extra mile to help her.

100% agree, but there is a huge difference to Spike under Angels leadership, he actually grows as a person during that season, whereas Buffy stops him from growing.

This is debatable and highly subjective. Personally I also like him better on AtS, but it's not like he does a 180, he's pretty much the same dude as before, just is shown to interact with more people which admittedly is nice.

That speech is about Buffy, not him. He doesn't give up on Buffy, Buffy hasn't given up the fight she's given up on herself, if she'd said the same thing a day before while still believing in herself, he would not have given the same speech.

Good point, we'll never know for sure, but I see the logic in the argument. I agree.

---------- Post added at 09:48 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:41 PM ----------

True, and that's what people are arguing, that Spikes entire self is 100% connected to whoever he is currently in love (or obsessed) with. We saw him as a man child mamas boy, then William the bloody one of the most dangerous vampires, and now as a souled sidekick to Buffy.

Except that his self is connected to who he loves at the time, it's connected to love period. People are arguing that he was the same with his mom, with Dru, and with Buffy. He doesn't adapt who he is based on who he loves, he's always the same old guy, with the same personality. The only real change with Dru is that he became a monster, that was due to the vampire/monster part in him, it wasn't due to Dru herself, although she probably did give him the confidence to become one of the most notorious killer. But overall, his personality over the course of the show is pretty consistent.

I don't think labeling Spike as "Buffy's Bitch" is malicious as some are interpreting it. It certainly isn't a flattering label, but I don't think it is a necessarily negative description.
It's just a dominate characteristic of his to define himself based on someone else's judgment.

The problem with this is that calling someone "someone's bitch" is degrading, no matter how it's put. I've been called that before and it was always meant as something negative. I don't see a scenario where it wouldn't used as a negative description. And if it's not something negative, than use another word than bitch, because that word, unless meant as a female dog, is always a negative thing.

 

[Robb Stark]

Exactly, the thread was started by someone who is a Spike fan, the only people not accepting it are Spike fans, the only reason it became a discussion is becasue once anything negative is said about Spike, it's defended to the ground or called bashing.

Dude, I don't really think you can say we're "defending to the ground" when you have literally written thousands of words in this thread trying to find alternative meanings to instances where Spike very clearly stands up to Buffy. Spike does NOT advocate Buffy forcibly regaining some sort of throne with her friends, he's saying she has it in her to be a leader again, when her confidence is broken. How you can interpret his speech in "Touched" as some form of enabling is bashing man. It's the exact opposite of what it is supposed to mean. So when you twist that around it totally comes across as bashing, even if you don't mean it that way.

I know you think Spike is a completely awful and useless character, but putting subjective interpretations on things that clearly aren't meant that way is bashing man.

 

[Black Eye Guy]

Very fair point, I didn't give you more than one concrete example. The problem is that in season 7, Buffy and Spike are almost always in in accord with one another. When she tells Spike to revert to his former self, I believe that's the only time they are actually at odds, (he actively disagrees with her), and as you pointed out, he does as she asks.

Ok so you're saying that as long as they stand up to her at some point along the way, even though they ultimately do her bidding they're not her bitches? I can get behind this, it's a fair point.

But again I'll say that by contrast, even though Spike doesn't stand UP to Buffy in season 7, he actually agrees with her throughout the entire season with the exception of that episode we mentioned above. So it's sort of comparing apples to oranges. Does that make sense? I mean if he'd had legitimate issues with any of her planning and then didn't stand up to her, repeatedly, I'd say he was more likely to be, well, bitch-like. But, again, it's clear to me that he sees eye-to-eye with her most of the time, and standing up to her isn't necessary.

That makes sense, but I dont think how she was leading was correct. She was being a complete asshat in how she was ordering everyone around, when Spikes talks to her in touch he doesn't tell her to change her style he encourages to take back the team, but there's no discussion of doing things differently, Buffy says the group was right and Spike disagrees.
I know that people have different opinions on this (was Buffy right or wrong in how she lead) but as far as I'm concerned it's fact that she was doing it wrong. She admitted so in Touch and she changed her style of leadership when she was back with them, Spike, from what he said, didn't suggest any change of style, he just accepted she was right in how she lead, when no one else did, not even Buffy.

Oh yes I agree completely that she doesn't treat him with respect in season 6, most of the time, but I would argue that she does respect him.

I guess for me I dont really see the difference, if you teat someone with no respect most of the time, you don't respect them. The moments of respect are out numbered by moments of disrespect and if disrespect outnumbers respect then I can't see how she respects him

So I mean that she respects him, in general, and that she wouldn't ask a man she didn't respect to share her bed in a loving, healthy way. I think she is disrespectful toward him in the instance where she tells him to go back to his old self, but again, respects him very much especially in season 7.

I absolutely refuse to believe she respected him in season 6, and she slept with him then, so I dont think thats true.

To make things clear, what I mean to say is that having respect for someone and acting disrespectful toward them can be entirely different things.

Yeah I think we have different meanings for that, for me, if you continuously disrespect someone you dont respect them. I dont understand how you'd constantly disrespect someone you respect.

I can't argue with you if you see it this way but suffice it to say there is no actual evidence that Spike intends for her to beat up her friends. He said that they could, together, take back control and I picture it as Spike having her back as Buffy walks back into her own home and states her case.

I think the wording makes it clear, I just can't see that scenario at all; Buffy walking into the house explaining herself and Spike standing behind her, I think if she was trying to win back the group having Spike standing behind her would just show them she's still acting an idiot. I also dont think there was time for a situation like that, the group was something that had to be taken, not something she had to reconnect with, to him.

Ok I think we got our wires crossed there. I was specifically referring to Spike post-soul and you meant pre-soul. Yes, pre-soul he only expressed remorse for what he'd done to Buffy, that's true. But post-soul he was remorseful in general, for what he'd done in the past.

Yeah for about a minuet, then it didn't matter. It started to matter while he was on Angel though.

Imagine if we erased everything from s6 and before, and you'd only watch s7, I doupt that anyone would have anything bad to say about Spike's love for Buffy, they would just see a guy that deeply care for Buffy and that is willing to go the extra mile to help her.

I dont agree, I have no problem looking at Spike separately in season 7 (I hate Spike, but most of my posts in this thead are actually defending Spike as an individual character).
I dont think someone seeing season 7 for the first time would believe that mostly becasue of the scenes where Buffy tells him to act more like a killer and how he basically tells Buffy she was a good leader when she wasn't, there are enough elements of his 'Buffy is always right, she can do no wrong' in season 7 for that to come across.

Dude, I don't really think you can say we're "defending to the ground" when you have literally written thousands of words in this thread trying to find alternative meanings to instances where Spike very clearly stands up to Buffy.

Sorry did I miss these 'instances where Spike very clearly stands up to Buffy', I asked for some and no one gave any, the only example given was by GumGnome who mentioned the monologue in touched, but I do not see that as Spike standing up to Buffy, that is an example of Spike standing UP for Buffy.

Spike does NOT advocate Buffy forcibly regaining some sort of throne with her friends, he's saying she has it in her to be a leader again, when her confidence is broken. How you can interpret his speech in "Touched" as some form of enabling is bashing man. It's the exact opposite of what it is supposed to mean. So when you twist that around it totally comes across as bashing, even if you don't mean it that way.

How you can interpret that speech to mean that is twisting it, Spike doesn't say she has it in her to be their leader, he literally says she should take back the group, she disagrees with him and says they were right.

I know you think Spike is a completely awful and useless character, but putting subjective interpretations on things that clearly aren't meant that way is bashing man.

No it's not, since you see that scene where he says she should take back control to mean she should sit down and have a discussion with them, it's subjective, if my interpretation is of a violent method. Why is a negative view of something instantly discredited as bashing, considering this thread has had views that include Spike saying she should sit down and talk to her friends and another that had Buffy sending Angel away then naming Spike as her champion - they are the complete opposite of bashing, they are fantasy and not stipulated in the show at all, people like that never get called out for being delusional in the same way people saying a negative just gets called bashing.

 

[Robb Stark]

No it's not, since you see that scene where he says she should take back control to mean she should sit down and have a discussion with them, it's subjective, if my interpretation is of a violent method. Why is a negative view of something instantly discredited as bashing, considering this thread has had views that include Spike saying she should sit down and talk to her friends and another that had Buffy sending Angel away then naming Spike as her champion - they are the complete opposite of bashing, they are fantasy and not stipulated in the show at all, people like that never get called out for being delusional in the same way people saying a negative just gets called bashing.

Fair enough. However, it's inaccurate to say that they "never get called out for being delusional". Check out replay #21 to this very thread. That alone, coming from a Spike fan you know pretty well, proves that what you just wrote is false.

 

[brinkster130]

Except that his self is connected to who he loves at the time, it's connected to love period. People are arguing that he was the same with his mom, with Dru, and with Buffy. He doesn't adapt who he is based on who he loves, he's always the same old guy, with the same personality. The only real change with Dru is that he became a monster, that was due to the vampire/monster part in him, it wasn't due to Dru herself, although she probably did give him the confidence to become one of the most notorious killer. But overall, his personality over the course of the show is pretty consistent.

I think what people are seeing as being the same is the fact that his actions and personality (to a lesser degree) change depending on who he is with/influenced by not the actual actions themselves. While there are certainly elements of his personality that stay constant, the amount he tries to suppress certain things changes based on who he is around. Example: allowing his monster side to shine while suppressing his softer side in an attempt to keep Dru interested in him.

The problem with this is that calling someone "someone's bitch" is degrading, no matter how it's put. I've been called that before and it was always meant as something negative. I don't see a scenario where it wouldn't used as a negative description. And if it's not something negative, than use another word than bitch, because that word, unless meant as a female dog, is always a negative thing.

Oh I totally agree that the bitch label isn't flattering, and I understand not liking it...but it comes directly from Spike himself when he calls himself "love bitch".

 

[EVIL UU]

[MENTION=11975]Robb Stark[/MENTION]

Spike does NOT advocate Buffy forcibly regaining some sort of throne with her friends

Oh. Then why does he offer to murder Faith?

SPIKE: Say the word and she's a footnote in history. I'll make it look like a painful accident.

 

[white avenger]

[MENTION=11975]Robb Stark[/MENTION]


Oh. Then why does he offer to murder Faith?

SPIKE: Say the word and she's a footnote in history. I'll make it look like a painful accident.

That was offered because Spike blamed Faith for Buffy's depressed state, and it could be argued that he only offered because he was reasonably sure that she wouldn't want him to.

I've offered to kill people before, almost always in a joking manner.

People right here on the Boards :grim:

 

[ladydorotea]

Eh, my feeling is that Spike is not so much of 'Buffy's bitch' as is generic 'love's bitch', by his own admission. Meaning he has such a deep and profoundly embarrassing inferiority complex and childhood trauma - because of what-not situation with his mother, that he never could be certain any woman can actually love him. Herein lies the root of all of his behavioral problems like stalking young, attractive and powerful women and enjoying hurting and overpowering them, etc. And he seriously has a point here since his momma - after being turned by him - caused him some serious trauma. I always wondered if they had had a suppressed incest undercurrents in their relationship before he turned her - his unhealthy attachment to her and his complete inexperience with women ( re Cecily) implied a sort of a passive-aggressive suppression of sexuality. Compare that to your usual serial killer of young women MO, they all usually have mommy issues.

 

[thetopher]

All the character's have a driving force, something that focuses them and gives their lives meaning, whether it's duty, redemption or friendship.
Spike's is and always has been romance- it's what gives his life meaning. His mother, Cecily (and others apparently), Dru and now Buffy. This is still true in the comics- he's the guy who can't walk away from Buffy.

'Buffy's bitch'/'Love's bitch' probably isn't the most sensitive way to say it, it seems to denote a dislike of the character I think, but it is an accurate assertion.

 

[white avenger]

Spike's is and always has been romance- it's what gives his life meaning. His mother, Cecily (and others apparently), Dru and now Buffy. This is still true in the comics- he's the guy who can't walk away from Buffy.

'Buffy's bitch'/'Love's bitch' probably isn't the most sensitive way to say it, it seems to denote a dislike of the character I think, but it is an accurate assertion.

We've seen only a few examples of this with Spike so far, but I would suggest, just as another definition for consideration, that it has always seemed to me that Spike's driving force has always been loyalty, rather than just romance. He endured torture by Glory and her minions rather than betray Dawn, and he said to what he thought was the Buffy-bot, to whom he had no reason to lie, that he did it rather than betray both Summers girls, not just to make points with Buffy, and not because he thought that he would be killed once Glory got the truth from him. Then, he stayed with Dawn all during the summer after Season 5, even going so far as to help the Scoobies on patrol (and no, I do not think that he did that just for the thrill of killing demons, because he could have done that on his own, and let the Scoobies do their own slaying with no help from him) until Buffy returned, something that had nothing whatsoever to do with romance, and he did it totally to honor a promise made in private to a girl who he had no reason whatsoever to think would ever return to see whether or not that promise was honored.

I think that it would be more accurate to call Spike the man who would never stop loving Buffy, but he could walk away from her, if he didn't honestly believe that she needed him, at least as much as Angel ever did. And,no, I'm not making this another Spike versus Angel debate, merely pointing out that both men loved Buffy, and probably always will, and both men left her, Angel of his own volition at the end of Season 3, and Spike, during Season 5 of "Angel," when he became corporeal and chose to stay in LA rather than go seeking her. Can anyone honestly say that Angel would not have been right there with Buffy under the same circumstances? That's love, certainly, but it's also honor and loyalty, as much as any degree of romantic motivation.

 

[NothingVentured]

Agreed. Spike is loyal. The end of AtS where he stands by Angel in his plan, when he defends him against Illyria's suggestion he's corrupted? That's loyalty.

 

[thetopher]

We've seen only a few examples of this with Spike so far, but I would suggest, just as another definition for consideration, that it has always seemed to me that Spike's driving force has always been loyalty, rather than just romance.

When I say 'driving force' or characteristic, it's something that explains both the characters positive AND negative aspects in regards to themself. And loyalty isn't something I associate with everything that Spike does (unlike say, Wesley. I would say that Wesley's defining character motivation is loyalty whether it's to the Watcher's council or to Angel. And yes it is an irony that his loyalty to Angel- not wanting to see him eat his son- led to an ultimate betrayal that left a deep impression on Wesley's own psyche.).

Spike betrayed Angelus and Drusilla in S2 and helped save the world out of love, not loyalty. He loved Drusilla, and that explains his actions.
Spike betrayed Drusilla in 'Crush' because of his (twisted) love for Buffy- he wanted to prove his love to her.
Love can manifest itself in a variety of ways to express his actions, and Spike not betraying Dawn's secret to Glory was done out of real, unrequited love for Buffy. That's what she realised at the end of the episode- that what he felt for her was real emotion, not some sick joke or trick, but something tangable.
Spike went an got a soul because of his love for Buffy, not loyalty. He tells her later on 'This is what you wanted.' In the same episode he becomes what she wants him to be, out of his love for her.
Love is his defining motivation, and I think that's what people say when they call him 'love's bitch'.

Then, he stayed with Dawn all during the summer after Season 5, even going so far as to help the Scoobies on patrol (and no, I do not think that he did that just for the thrill of killing demons, because he could have done that on his own, and let the Scoobies do their own slaying with no help from him) until Buffy returned, something that had nothing whatsoever to do with romance, and he did it totally to honor a promise made in private to a girl who he had no reason whatsoever to think would ever return to see whether or not that promise was honored.

Because he still loved Buffy, even when she was dead.
Spike was haunted by guilt-riddlen dreams of failing to save the woman he loved ('every night I saved you') all the time when she was away. He remained with the Scooby's out of a mixture of motives, and while loyalty to Buffy's memory was one of them (as was guilt, having nowhere else to go, beating stuff up etc) the primary, defining motivation is his love for the woman he, in his eyes, failed.

I think that it would be more accurate to call Spike the man who would never stop loving Buffy, but he could walk away from her, if he didn't honestly believe that she needed him, at least as much as Angel ever did. And,no, I'm not making this another Spike versus Angel debate, merely pointing out that both men loved Buffy, and probably always will, and both men left her, Angel of his own volition at the end of Season 3, and Spike, during Season 5 of "Angel," when he became corporeal and chose to stay in LA rather than go seeking her.

The difference is of course is that Spike eventually came back and stayed by her side whereas Angel stays away for the most part. It can also be said that in S5 Spike stays away from Buffy out of pride, he went out on a pretty big high and doesn't know how to get back to her, this as much as any sort of loyalty (you can't really be loyal to somebody half a world away) plays a part in his thinking. At least as far as his conversation with Harmony suggests.

In S5 of Angel Spike is forced to find a motivation outside of Buffy and I think here the love/romance characteristic changes slightly and becomes more nuanced, after all love of new found friends (Fred mainly) manifests inself pretty much as loyalty. He's trying to make a go of following Angel's path, trying to do right just because.
This is why, between 'Damage' and 'Not Fade Away' is soulled Spike's high point imo.

 

[GoSpuffy]

"People who search for the negative will always manage to find it. Seeing the positive sometimes takes a bit more work, but that doesn't mean that it isn't there." Doc Savage

You might find this hard to believe, but I do, at least partially, agree with you about that scene. Spike had every right, and quite a valid reason, to not let Buffy stay with him that night (which, by the way isn't my favorite basement scene. My favorite basement scene comes the night before the final battle) I think that he confirms that with his "Angel breath" statement. But there was never any mystery about Buffy's feelings about Angel, and Spike, above all others, knows that very well. But something else had just happened, something quite significant for Spike.

For whatever reason, and that "second front" line was sheer B S of the highest degree, Buffy had sent Angel away, and had actually, for the first time, officially acknowledged Spike as her Champion. This goes back to the knight and his lady image, though I doubt that you can see it. Buffy had not only named Spike as her Champion, even if it was there in the basement, with no witnesses, she had also given him her favor, or standard (the amulet) to carry into battle. That was what won Spike over, and that, to a large degree, was why he was so anxious that she not leave, even after first insisting that she do so. Saying what he did was his way of asserting that he did, indeed, have his pride, but actually allowing her to leave would be tatamount to refusinf what he considered the honor of being her Champion.

Spike never had any delusions about the fact that Buffy would always love Angel more than she ever would him. Angel was both her first serious love and her first lover, two things thak Buffu undoubtedly would never forget, and just as undoubtedly, the standard by which she would always measure the men she loved, and the men who shared her bed. But while he had no such delusions, he did have, for the first time, the genuine hope that she would, one day, include him in those against whom Angel was measured a someone she loved, as well as a lover.

And before anyone jumps on the "No you don't, but thanks for saying it," undoubtedly all Bangels' favorite line in the entire season, that, also, fits in with the knight/Champion image. Spike is, as far as he knows, dying in the service of his lady. In that moment, he gives her the only thing that he has left to give, two things, if you consider the burning hands image as his finally being able to return to her the fire that she had sung about the year previously in "Once More With Feeling."

Telling Buffy that she actually didn't love him was his way of doing what the classic Champion is expected to do at that moment. He is sending her away, on whatever excuse he can manage (at least he isn't telling her to go and set up a second front) in order to assure her safety.

love this post 🙂
 

In S5 of Angel Spike is forced to find a motivation outside of Buffy and I think here the love/romance characteristic changes slightly and becomes more nuanced, after all love of new found friends (Fred mainly) manifests inself pretty much as loyalty. He's trying to make a go of following Angel's path, trying to do right just because.
This is why, between 'Damage' and 'Not Fade Away' is soulled Spike's high point imo.

Even though they bickered constantly I think it was pretty clear there was a lot of love between Angel and Spike too. In the end Spike stayed for a few reasons, Fred, because he could feel the fight coming, and because Angel needed him. That century old family loyalty was still in his heart.