How Memorable Is Buffy?

ILLYRIAN said:
Amazing isn't it, I've heard all that talk about Spuffy and Bangel, the Caveman and Astronauts kinda thing -- but nothing about Riley which is probably a good thing. The only Riley episodes I can remember have either Angel or Spike in them.
Riley often faded into the background, such as when the Gentlemen had their day, or when Buffy got 'hitched' to Spike.
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Probably the episode of Riley's that stays with me most is the one where he stakes Spike with the fake stake. That is an act of such dispicableness. I think a case could have been made for actually killing Spike on more than one occasion, (though there would be no justification for killing him for telling the truth other than plain vindictive rage) but I don't think cruelty is ever justified and that staking is seriously cruel, both physically and psychologically. Don't toy with your food, predator!

That is a Mengele-grade Nazi kind of act... that Riley could actually have a fake stake is a sign of a mind that is seriously sadistic depravity. I find myself wondering how many times he fake staked vampires to be cruel before killing them... It is the sort of act I expect of an UnSub on Criminal Minds NOT one of the so called 'good guys'. Honestly, I don't think Angelus did anything that turned my stomach the same way and he was pretty awful.

At that point, any empathy I ever had for Riley was gone for good. Initially, when he approached Willow to find out what Buffy liked... though it was a bit obsessive, it was also kind of cute... I didn't really 'want him as Buffy's beau' but I didn't think he was awful.

His trajectory... the spoiled little boy who wanted Buffy to worry about his feelings when her mother was circling the drain... nope. Did not like him.

The 'man' who got out of his lover's bed and went to get get sucked off by vampires... so much YUCK there...

Of course, we should have known it would end badly... Riley was so unhinged as to try to avoid the life-saving surgery so he could stay 'strong enough' for Buffy... And Riley was jealous of Dracula... seriously?

Buffy made herself so small for him... was afraid to impugn his precious manhood. Funny Xander was always weak compared to Buffy and yet, he's strong enough to simply accept that he's not Buffy... and never expected Buffy to dumb down to make him 'feel better'. No one is right for you if they make you feel that 'you are too much'... and Riley did this pretty much right out of the gate.

I really wish that Xander hadn't convinced Buffy to lower herself to run after that piece of pond scum... but then Xander really never knew Riley and I think lived vicariously through his 'strong soldier' avatar. I think to Xander, Riley represented the aspirational Xander... We, the audience, and Spike especially, saw the other side of Spike...

And of course, Riley comes back at the hardest time for Buffy and makes her feel even smaller. I really hate him after that episode. I feel sorry for his wife Sam, who I actually like. She deserves better. She's stronger than he is. He just hasn't figured that out yet.

Blue

Riley isn't forgettable... but the things I remember aren't memories I really need in my head.
 
No. Buffy's relationship was the primary reason anyone cared about the show. Arguably, given the success of Twilight, But Not Season 8, and Fifty Shades of Grey, it was the greatest plot idea of the 1990s. They probably should have made it a love triangle between Parker, Buffy and Riley, and followed the online discourse and focus groups to see who resonated better with the audience. Blucas did his best, but nobody ships the nice, boring guy.
 
ILLYRIAN
ILLYRIAN
What was the first word, 'No' about?
Regardless on if you liked what Buffy did do, or did not do it was memorable.
 
I'm claiming that Riley wasn't memorable. I mean, the EW 20th Anniversary, right? Completely missing. His character forum here? Last July, how old is he?, with the best answers being based on circumstantial evidence. It was a fine performance, but the romance was completely overshadowed by Bangle and Spuffy.
 
AlphaFoxtrot said:
Buffy's relationship was the primary reason anyone cared about the show.
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Some, not anyone. Given Buffy's abysmal taste in men - Riley was just about acceptable and it went rapidly downhill from there - I would have been perfectly happy if the Slayers were an order of celibate warrior nuns.

AlphaFoxtrot said:
Blucas did his best, but nobody ships the nice, boring guy.
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Again, not nobody, and the nice guy should be shipped more often. If the nice guy was the one shipped, not the edgy abusive scumbag, less women would end up in hospitals and battered women's shelters.
 
I'll stick up for Riley, there were times I thought he was a refreshing counterpoint to the scoobies. But yea, he was a tad bland, and making him a sucking post for female vamps didn't improve things much. I still enjoyed him sometimes.
 
DeepBlueJoy said:
That is a Mengele-grade Nazi kind of act... that Riley could actually have a fake stake is a sign of a mind that is seriously sadistic depravity. I find myself wondering how many times he fake staked vampires to be cruel before killing them... It is the sort of act I expect of an UnSub on Criminal Minds NOT one of the so called 'good guys'. Honestly, I don't think Angelus did anything that turned my stomach the same way and he was pretty awful.
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I think that's a bit dramatic.
Let's be honest, as much as Spike is cool, he should've been staked or run out of town.
 
hoponlilmama said:
I think that's a bit dramatic.
Let's be honest, as much as Spike is cool, he should've been staked or run out of town.
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And, at this point, Spike was the vampire - by definition, a soulless monster who preyed on humans - who conspired in killing a lot of people Riley knew, if not friends then at least colleagues, tried to kill Buffy, nearly killed Riley in an attempt to do this and who had been actively sabotaging Riley's relationship with Buffy. Sure, it was going downhill anyway, but Spike made it worse out of his narcissistic obsession.

Spike is the UnSub from Criminal Minds.
 
hoponlilmama said:
I think that's a bit dramatic.
Let's be honest, as much as Spike is cool, he should've been staked or run out of town.
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I totally agree that there was lots of justification for staking Spike. I came to love who Spike ended up being, but he did a lot of bad things and by the metric of slayers, he was totally deserving of slaying.

I still think that TORTURE and mind*&^ cruelty makes Riley pond scum. If it had been all he did, I probably would have forgiven him, but he was a master of very ugly and soul destroying version of the mind game. He made Buffy feel that he was supportive, while he was manipulating her into feeling bad over and over. When he came back, he brought his wife and I can't see a mission reason why he would do that, only a 'hurt buffy' reason. Even though Buffy was at the nadir of her life.

Honestly, I would not have minded a good guy boyfriend for Buffy... A normal guy that treated her right and was loyal and resourceful... Oh wait, she already has one of those... his name is Xander. Now, I think Xander was utterly wrong for Buffy in terms of personality, and chemistry... But I think in the time he was in her life he was far better for her than Riley and actually made himself more useful... and saved her life (probably more than once, though the CPR thing is a big deal). He also saved the world a couple times in there (When he saved Buffy, she lived and prevented the Master from rising and when Willow went off the rails, he prevented her from burning the world to a crisp). Not to mention all the times he fixed things and showed up for fights big and small. I think a supportive normal guy who didn't have the massive ego that Riley had and therefore needed it stroked instead of being there for Buffy... could have worked. Just. Not. Riley.

Xander was ordinary and memorable. I honestly think Riley may have been human, but he wasn't a nice guy. In spite of Xander's many flaws, I think he was a far better human. I think that Riley was actually more Owen 2.0 than Xander 2.0 -- which I think XANDER was hoping he was... I think part of Xander's support of Riley is that he lived vicariously though the 'normal guy' who was doing 'everything' Xander hoped to do... Anyway... if we want to talk about the men in Buffy's life, why don't we start a new thread?

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NotASlayer said:
And, at this point, Spike was the vampire - by definition, a soulless monster who preyed on humans - who conspired in killing a lot of people Riley knew, if not friends then at least colleagues, tried to kill Buffy, nearly killed Riley in an attempt to do this and who had been actively sabotaging Riley's relationship with Buffy. Sure, it was going downhill anyway, but Spike made it worse out of his narcissistic obsession.

Spike is the UnSub from Criminal Minds.
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i don't disagree. But the SSAs on Criminal Minds don't torture the criminals, they either lock them up or shoot them. And Spike is supposed to be evil. Riley is NOT supposed to be evil. Riley is in public a 'nice guy'. In private, he gets off on torture and suck jobs.
 
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NotASlayer said:
And, at this point, Spike was the vampire - by definition, a soulless monster who preyed on humans - who conspired in killing a lot of people Riley knew, if not friends then at least colleagues, tried to kill Buffy, nearly killed Riley in an attempt to do this and who had been actively sabotaging Riley's relationship with Buffy. Sure, it was going downhill anyway, but Spike made it worse out of his narcissistic obsession.

Spike is the UnSub from Criminal Minds.
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Yes but he's funny and has a cool leather coat!
And yes, exactly. The chip didn't stop him from trying to kill people: "Just because I can't do the damage myself doesn't stop me from aiming a loose cannon your way."
 
I would argue that Spike was one of the breakout stars of the series. A series should be judged by how famous it's cast and characters became.
 
spikenbuffy said:
The speech of Buffy to Jonathan (Earshot) was memorable because it's on point.
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One of the best speeches in the series. It really stays with you. I often find myself wanting to show it to someone... because it is so very true.

Life on life's terms really can suck sometimes and the rest of the world is NOT obsessing about you because they have their own pile of brown stuff to deal with.
 
Earshot's only downside is in that it's the other episode that was delayed by Columbine, and the other episode was a heck of a lot more memorable. But if Graduation didn't blow up the school, then yeah, no problem.
 
I have been trying not to say this about how memorable Buffy is, I am sorry but I'm not able to not say it,
so in answer to the question of, How memorable is Buffy?
I tried to avoid asking this,
Who?
 
BTVS got better until season 4 in my opinion. Even though I like Spike's comic relief, he's a loose canon constantly who should have been staked in season 4.

Spuffy didn't impress me at all when Spike became a brain-chipped lap dog for Buffy who enabled a toxic relationship with him. Ew. I don't blame Sarah Michelle Gellar for hesitantly acting in scenes like the balcony one from "Dead Things" when Spike was getting busy. It's awkward. The balcony scene from "Dead Things" was my first sex education moment before hitting puberty. But I wanted a better introduction to sex.

Willow became insufferable enough that Giles called her out on recklessly resurrecting Buffy from magic power-tripping. This reeked with Willow becoming unwisely bitter after being bullied in high school herself. Dark Willow scenes made me want to skip them. I was thinking "good god, when is this madness going to end" when watching Willow descend into darkness.

Xander does Anya dirty in the end like a coward. Not impressive character development if you ask me.

Spike's attempt at heroism on season 7's "Chosen" episode becomes meaningless after he regresses in the Angel series. This is why I gave up on him despite his comic relief moments. But despite that, I like the Angel series much more than BTVS.

BTVS was ruined at the start of season 4. I stuck around for some moments. The Angel series gave me relief when I watched it. But the memorable feeling I got was that this Buffyverse could have been written better despite it being revolutionary. I do give credit to Joss Whedon's genius.
 
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OceanicChic said:
BTVS got better until season 4 in my opinion. Even though I like Spike's comic relief, he's a loose canon constantly who should have been staked in season 4.

Spuffy didn't impress me at all when Spike became a brain-chipped lap dog for Buffy who enabled a toxic relationship with him. Ew. I don't blame Sarah Michelle Gellar for hesitantly acting in scenes like the balcony one from "Dead Things" when Spike was getting busy. It's awkward. The balcony scene from "Dead Things" was my first sex education moment before hitting puberty. But I wanted a better introduction to sex.

Willow became insufferable enough that Giles called her out on recklessly resurrecting Buffy from magic power-tripping. This reeked with Willow becoming unwisely bitter after being bullied in high school herself. Dark Willow scenes made me want to skip them. I was thinking "good god, when is this madness going to end" when watching Willow descend into darkness.

Xander does Anya dirty in the end like a coward. Not impressive character development if you ask me.

Spike's attempt at heroism on season 7's "Chosen" episode becomes meaningless after he regresses in the Angel series. This is why I gave up on him despite his comic relief moments. But despite that, I like the Angel series much more than BTVS.

BTVS was ruined at the start of season 4. I stuck around for some moments. The Angel series gave me relief when I watched it. But the memorable feeling I got was that this Buffyverse could have been written better despite it being revolutionary. I do give credit to Joss Whedon's genius.
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Some people don't like the high school transition - do you think that's what bothered you about s4?
There's some big changes - Oz leaves/Adam story/the Initiative/introduction of Riley

Personally, I love s4. It's got its problems, but it's one of my favourite seasons.
 
hoponlilmama said:
Some people don't like the high school transition - do you think that's what bothered you about s4?
There's some big changes - Oz leaves/Adam story/the Initiative/introduction of Riley

Personally, I love s4. It's got its problems, but it's one of my favourite seasons.
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High school transitioning doesn't bother me one bit. Oz was great. Riley was a letdown. Spike should have been staked after The Initiative business was over with. Adam was a big technosoldier meatsuit. This was the only characteristic aspect that I found interesting about him. Writers didn't flesh out his character enough to impress me. Parker, Adam, Riley, Willow becoming insufferable during college, Xander still being cringeworthy, Spike getting brain-chipped rather than staked, and other factors dampened the high school transition for me. I've seen a better high school transition in the Smallville show from my experience.
 
OceanicChic said:
High school transitioning doesn't bother me one bit. Oz was great. Riley was a letdown. Spike should have been staked after The Initiative business was over with.
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I'm in the small minority of Riley lovers, so I can't agree with you there I'm afraid! 😁
As for William the Bloody - realistically should've been staked, but I love the idea that has been thrown around here of being kicked out of Sunnydale and shifting over to LA - and AtS.

OceanicChic said:
Adam was a big technosoldier meatsuit.
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This cracked me up! 😂

OceanicChic said:
This was the only characteristic aspect that I found interesting about him. Writers didn't flesh out his character enough to impress me.
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I think the loss of Walsh and the sudden pivot was to blame there.

OceanicChic said:
Parker, Adam, Riley, Willow becoming insufferable during college, Xander still being cringeworthy, Spike getting brain-chipped rather than staked, and other factors dampened the high school transition for me. I've seen a better high school transition in the Smallville show from my experience.
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Smallville is on my 'to watch' list someday!
Xander is okay in s4 - he's trying to figure out who he is post- high school. Parker is....well, all I'll say is many of us were happy that CaveBuffy bonked him over the head and weren't one bit sad about it!''

The one thing I would've liked is to see a little more of - the effects of demons being chipped. We only really see Spike dealing with it.
 
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