How We See Our Favorite Vampires

[white avenger]

This is a question that involves Spike and Angel, but it is NOT another Spike vs Angel debate. Instead, this is about you, the fan and viewer and how you see the characters as they are portrayed. Possibly, it will help at least some of us realize why our views of the two characters are as they are. So, here's the question:

The first time that you saw Angel and Spike, were they good, or evil, and do you think that that might influence how you judge them?

As for me...

The first episode of "Buffy" that I ever saw was "Once More With Feeling" (I've told this story before) and Spike, as I saw him there wasn't only one of the good guys, he was the one who seemed to have a special relationship and closeness with Buffy that none of the other characters seemed to have. That kiss at the end kinda sealed it for me.

I liked the show so much that I started watching it regularly, including the syndicated episodes and marathons presented earlier each day, conveniently, just when I was arriving home from work. The first syndicated episodes that I saw were from Season 2, at the height of Angelus' arc, so I saw him as a monster who took special pleasure in taunting and torturing Buffy and her friends.

It wasn't until later, when I bought the disc sets of the various episodes that I actually saw how poor, tortured, puppy dog eyed Angel was introduced in "Welcome To The Hellmouth," and evil, despicable, murderous William The Bloody/Spike first appeared in "School hard" first appeared that I saw how the characters were initially portrayed.

Maybe that is the main, or at least a major, reason that I have no problem seeing both vampires in what I prefer to think of as a somewhat more open minded light than some other fans, and why I see Buffy's relationship with Spike, bad as it was in Season 6 and promising as it became in Season 7, as the one that just seemed to work out the best for me.

So, how about the rest of you? What were your first impressions, and were they the most influential for you?

 

[Blaze]

This is a question that involves Spike and Angel, but it is NOT another Spike vs Angel debate. Instead, this is about you, the fan and viewer and how you see the characters as they are portrayed. Possibly, it will help at least some of us realize why our views of the two characters are as they are. So, here's the question:

The first time that you saw Angel and Spike, were they good, or evil, and do you think that that might influence how you judge them?

Good thing this isn't another ship debate 😛 Hopefully it doesn't turn into one! As for the question, I guess I can give a very neutral answer because neither Spike or angel are part of my top favorite characters, and I just about as equally like Angel and Spike (although I'll admit that I find Spike's story more enticing). Interestingly enough, this kind of go along with your theory, I think my first two seasons I watched were s1 and s4, ironically those are the seasons when both Angel and Spike are introduce as members of the gang and not as a baddy.

I remember when I was younger (like 12), I was in love with both vamps from the moment they came on screen. At that time it probably was because of the hormones more so than me understanding the characters, but I think me being introduced to them as the male "lead" of their seasons did influence how I equally like both of them. To me it's not Angel vs Spike, it's like comparing apple to oranges. I liked Angel on his run, then liked Spike on his. It's that simple.

 

[Robb Stark]

I think that's a huge factor in perception. Who we see/like "first" almost always influences us, and it extends into a lot of things.

I watched BTVS chronologically right from the beginning of the series, when I was about the same age as Buffy was supposed to be in S1 (Grade 10 I think). I was into the Angel storyline right from the get-go, the mystery of it all, and it helped that I didn't know a thing about the series or any of its characters. I liked Angel, even though he wasn't in a ton of S1, but when his titular episode, "Angel" came up that's what cemented it for me. I thought they did an excellent job of explaining the core elements of his character and it was just a great story told between him and Buffy.

That continued for me throughout the season and into the next. I just found, from the "Angel" episode, Buffy and Angel to be the perfect couple. I thought they had everything I found satisfying or endearing as a viewer. I loved Spike when he was first introduced in S2, but I never even thought of him as a potential good guy/love interest for Buffy. I always found him cool though, especially when he sided with Buffy over Angelus at the climax of the season. He's still one of my favorite characters, probably because of that positive initial impression.

But in relation to Buffy, Angel just came first, and considering the quality I felt was exhibited in their relationship, that's a big edge for him. Him gaining his own series plays a massive role as well. I loved AtS more than BTVS, and it was there Angel truly became my favorite character. If Spike had gotten his own spinoff/movie at some point? Who knows.

 

[Kean]

First impressions are not really what I think of when I think of Angel.

I see Angel as just a man(pire) who just tries. I don't see him as some sort of hero or "Champion." He is just this person who hasn't a God damn clue what they are doing but is doing something all the same. I think he sees a need and does what is in his power to meet it. What I find the most compelling thing about him is how he is never beaten. No matter how appallingly awful it gets, and it always gets that way, he gets back up and somehow manages to still see the future as a space in which he can be useful.

He's this goofy, aloof, vain, infuriating, brilliant, disappointing, compelling, kind guy stumbling through his life and I love that.

 

[ILLYRIAN]

When I first saw Angel he looked like some guy who was on the outside looking in, it seemed as though he wanted to be accepted. He dressed like someone who was trying to hard.
Spike on the other hand didn't seem to care what others thought of him as long as he was happy. For that reason I started to prefer Spike.
In the following seasons I saw no reason to change, some of the pre-Spike's poems made me concerned but then the poems verses the Barry Manilow thing, Angel didn't stand a chance.

 

[Black Eye Guy]

First impression not really, I liked Angel better when he got his own show, and we got to see more of him.

Spike on the other hand when from my first impression of him being interesting when he first turned up, to being funny, to being incredibly dull then to hating him after talking to fans of his.

 

[Lyri]

I don't think this is true.

Anyone who's been on BB as long as I have will know that I used to be a HUGE Spuffy and Spike fan, and, like [MENTION=11975]Robb Stark[/MENTION] I watched the show right from the beginning, so Angel was the first vampire I ran into.

But that was when I was a teenager, 16, 17, 18, and watching the show again, from the beginning, in my mid- to late-twenties, my perspective changed drastically. I grew to HATE Spike and the whole Spuffy relationship and I became embarrassed that I was ever such a Spike stan.

I'm not saying I'm a huge Angel supporter, because that would be a lie, but I do like his character more than Spike and I would class myself now as a Bangel above everything else, but I would much rather Buffy not be with either of them.

I DO like Spike, however, when he was first introduced. I really do like his S2 arc and when he came back in S3. I lose some respect for him in S4, I didn't like how he was turned into the comic relief and I wish he'd just done something else after he was chipped. He might have lost his ability to bite and harm, but he was still Spike, William the Bloody, he could have made it work if he put an ounce of thought into it. After the beginning of S5, I'm just done with the whole character.

to hating him after talking to fans of his.

I would also agree with this. I've lost count the number of times Spike and Spuffy fans have accused me of watching the show wrong and telling me I need 'lessons' so that I can 'truly appreciate Spike's character and the Spuffy relationship the way it has to be appreciated'. I've been told my opinion doesn't matter, that I'm not worth talking or listening to (thankfully, not on this board except for one memorable incident) and I was even rejected from an art community because one of the tasks was to make Spuffy art and I chose not to participate. (It wasn't necessary to take part, for those of you wondering). To some Spike fans, if you don't like Spike, you're not worth their time, regardless of your other thoughts or opinions.

 

[Kana]

I don't think I fit the mould either. I ended up preferring Angel when he was on his own show. I just simply related to his character more, mostly because I'm an introvert like him.
As for shipping, I was invested in Bangel when it came around and then I was rooting for Spuffy from about Season 5.

 

[OFAWB]

That's interesting. I've been made to feel like crap because I'm not a huge fan of Bangel. 😀

 

[Robb Stark]

That's interesting. I've been made to feel like crap because I'm not a huge fan of Bangel. 😀

I know this is getting a little off track, but this topic kind of erupted on another thread about a month or two ago. Some (and this is NOT a character indictment at all, so please don't take it as such) fans of Spuffy have this incredible persecution complex when it comes to their ship', and I think it's that which escalates the debates into arguments. Bangel gets trashed just as much, if not more, than any other ship', Spuffy included. But the hardcore Buffy/Angel fans don't seem to possess the tendency to make it about "them" when their ship' gets ragged on.

I'm a Spuffy fan. I like Buffy and Angel more so maybe there's something to that, and I freely admit that I don't know what you guys have gone through on other sites, but I DO know that here the Bangel vs. Spuffy debates only seem to get really out of control when one side starts taking every criticism about Spuffy as a slight on them personally. That's just not the case. No other ship' supporters make that claim.

And again, certainly not everyone does this, but it just touches a sore spot I guess because of the thread battles from a little while ago. There was a specific poster who frequently and constantly turned every debate into them being "persecuted", and that just makes me roll my eyes.

 

[Ethan Reigns]

For me, a shipper is:

1. a person who arranges for transport of items
2. a document that follows a product through factory processes showing what has been done to date
3. in bizarro world, someone who favours someone else's relationship

I am not a Spuffy or Bangel shipper. None of the people involved is capable of carrying on a healthy relationship and I don't really see relationships as a spectator sport.

My interest in Spike and Angel is that they move the story along. Something interesting always happens when they are around. It's like watching football - you watch the near deep back, because he always leads your eye to where the action is. In BtVS and Ats, vampires move the story along, even when the story is about a slayer whose business is eliminating them. I see Spike as a more interesting and long-lasting motivating force on BtVS and of course, Angel moves his own series along.

 

[OFAWB]

And again, certainly not everyone does this, but it just touches a sore spot I guess because of the thread battles from a little while ago. There was a specific poster who frequently and constantly turned every debate into them being "persecuted", and that just makes me roll my eyes.

I'm pretty sure I know who/what you're talking about, and I understand your frustration. Personally, there's no persecution complex on my part. Actually, when I mentioned being made to feel terrible, I was thinking of some real-life conversations I've had with other people!

What probably happens is that people identify with certain characters. They become attached to them, and so they get offended when "their" characters are put down or something. Really, I think there's room for every type of opinion about Buffyverse characters. I may identify with Spike quite a bit, but I also identify with Buffy and Willow and Xander and Faith (and a whole lot of other characters). I'm surely biased, but I don't take criticism of Spike personally. 😛

Really, a lot of people tend to misconstrue criticism of their tastes and preferences as criticism of who they are personally. I've seen it with music, authors, television, clothing, politics, et cetera. It's very tempting for me to want to say, "This person disagrees with me about X. Therefore, this person hates me." It's something I have worked on for years, and I think I've gotten better at it. Thanks for bringing up an important topic, Robb Stark.

 

[white avenger]

This is getting a bit off topic, but I've noticed quite often that, while most Spuffy shippers have no problem in agreeing that Buffy did, indeed, love Angel as well as Spike, Bangels can't do the same, and more than a few get downright irate at the very suggestion that Buffy could love both vampires.

 

[Robb Stark]

This is getting a bit off topic, but I've noticed quite often that, while most Spuffy shippers have no problem in agreeing that Buffy did, indeed, love Angel as well as Spike, Bangels can't do the same, and more than a few get downright irate at the very suggestion that Buffy could love both vampires.

No doubt, which, personally, I find fairly partisan as well. There are arguments on both sides which seems specifically designed to inflame the passions of the other. The one about Bangel which drives me insanse to the exact same degree as the one you mentioned bothers you is the tendency of some (not all) Spuffy fans to say that Buffy and Angel's romance was little more than a childhood/first love flame that burned out. That gets bandied about constantly, despite blatant evidence to the contrary. Again, the Bangel side does much the same thing as well, often in spite of evidence. It's dumb on both sides.

 

[EffyStonem]

I love Angel and I kind of just tolerate Spike for the most part, which is kind of ironic because when I first watched the show it was kind of reversed for me.

In the beginning I didn't mind Angel but, let's be honest, he doesn't have much of a personality on BtVS, at least not until Angelus arrives. So in the early days of watching BtVS I loved the Bangel relationship but not Angel so much. It wasn't until he moved to his own show and his character became so rich and multi-layered that I fell in love with him and now I will love him and defend him until my dying days.

On the other hand, I adored Spike when he first turned up in Season 2. He was ballsy and brash and funny, didn't follow rules or regulation and I loved his extreme devotion to Drusilla. Once they shoved the chip into his brain I became less interested in him and as soon as his obsession with Buffy came roaring out I lost all taste for the character (Season 6 really finished it for me). I do enjoy Spike in Season 5 of AtS, though (basically, just take him away from Buffy and I'm fine with him).

 

[white avenger]

The one about Bangel which drives me insane to the exact same degree as the one you mentioned bothers you is the tendency of some (not all) Spuffy fans to say that Buffy and Angel's romance was little more than a childhood/first love flame that burned out. That gets bandied about constantly, despite blatant evidence to the contrary. Again, the Bangel side does much the same thing as well, often in spite of evidence. It's dumb on both sides.

I have to confess that I have said something similar on several occasions, saying that Bangel was a first love/adolescent/high school love affair, but mainly in the context that one's first love is vital, because, without that first love, there can never be a second love, or a third, or a tenth. First love is the yard stick by which we measure all of our future relationships, be they better, worse, or just as good.

I don't think that I have ever seriously tried to belittle Buffy's feelings for Angel, or his for her, except in a joking way, pretty much in the same tone as the "dull as a table lamp" statement. Maybe some sensitive souls have taken something that I have said too literally, but, actually, I love Bangels. Most Spuffies do, if they're completely honest about it. It's like the President and the Republicans. Without them, who would we have to blame for everything that has gone wrong?

 

[Kairos]

Well, I watched from the beginning, but I think one thing that influenced me was the preconceptions I had about Angel going in. I knew he was a love interest and that he left the show after a few seasons and get his own spin-off, and that he was 'replaced' in the later seasons by another vampire love interest.

To me that sounded like a typical TV romance - everyone acts like Leading Male and Leading Female are predictably, blandly in love forever, and then they break up and Leading Female starts over with a new Leading Male, invalidating the 'forever' theme that powered the whole thing. It didn't help that the characters looked so pretty on the boxes. To be blunt, I hate that stuff. I resented Angel before I even 'met' him, because to me he was the flake who won't put in the work to keep a relationship alive.

When I actually saw it unfold, though, it took me by surprise. There was a slow build-up in the first season that I hadn't expected, and then there were a lot of squabbling and misunderstandings between the couple, who had actual personalities, which I hadn't expected either. They didn't sterilize or dilute the relationship to soften the eventual breakup; they actually intensified it, despite the looming shadow of Buffy and Angel's mutual knowledge that they were basically doomed. When Angel's departure came and it turned out that it was because he still loved her, it sealed the deal.

So, Angel's my vampire because he's not what I thought he was. Throughout the show, he's never been what anyone thought he was.

 

[Wesley Pryce]

I didn't like Bangel or Spuffy,and when i started watching BTVS i hated Angel and loved Spike. After ATS started i watched and fell in love with both the show and the character of Angel. So im not the norm i suppose lol. I love Angel and i still like Spike but i think Angel is more interesting and more relate-able. Angel wins it for me.