How well have Buffy and Angel aged?

[Btvs fan]

Joss Whedon at the time described himself as a feminist and consistently called himself one until he got outed

 

[Anyanka Bunny Slayer]

I was going to say something about the dated styles, but realized I don't really know what teens are wearing nowadays!

"Dated" is an understatement. The vast majority of styles in season one were straight out of the early/mid '70's. 😄

 

[Tome]

Wokeness isn't progressivism but it is the natural end point of progressivism when liberal values have been (more or less) achieved. Wokeness is incredible regressive and divisive.

And there are plenty of 'anti-woke' commentators who recognize the difference is writing 20 or so years ago and the writing that is common place nowadays. There are plenty of liberals/progressives who hate woke as well. It's not simply a left/right thing.

To begin with, I'll just point out that you haven't refuted anything I've said in my previous post concerning Buffy and Angel. You just threw some word salad at me about the ever-nebulous meaning of the term 'woke' and thought it worthwhile to tell me that the 'anti-woke' crowd thinks that writing nowadays sucks. As if that wasn't clear for anyone who watches TV and uses the internet at least once a day.

Anyway, what you did there is just another example of how the term "woke", and its meaning, will be constantly molded/modified according to whatever need the 'anti-woke' crowd has for it in the context of an argument. I've been around the 'anti-woke' and 'enlightened centrism' crowds for over a decade, as there are many of them in the fields of interest I pursue. I've heard all of their arguments over and over (I could probably be a better 'anti-woke' advocate than most of them at this point 🤣 ). As a matter of fact, most of them would disagree with you and equate "woke" with "progressivism".

You can move the goal post as much as you want, but, in the end, it is a fact that Buffy (and to a lesser extent Angel) would be considered 'woke' if it came out today, just like some other, older fictional stories featuring feminist messages. As I said, it's just difficult to admit this for a lot of 'anti-woke' people because they often use older media (like BtVS) as a 'shield' to defend themselves from any claims that the lens they use to analyze and criticize modern media might be tinted by misogyny, racism, and homophobia, among other things.

As for your claim that "liberals/progressives" hate "woke" as well. Nah, the vast majority of us wouldn't agree with that statement. We'd criticize bad writing, not 'wokeness'. While it seems like those two are inseparable in your eyes, they aren't in ours.

The portrayal of feminism, homosexuality, child soldiers and equivalents to the Watcher's Council existed long before woke was a thing. Feminism existed for a long time before the Marxist Postmodernist woke revolution poisoned education and then spread to other things.

Feminism has always been with us and the suffragette movement coincided with the first use of the saying, "stay woke" by black people who used that to mean stay aware of your surroundings and the people who want to kill you.

The first homosexual on TV was Peter Panama on The Corner Bar, an ABC sitcom that aired in 1972 - 1973 and was played by Vincent Schiavelli. There are few homosexual characters before Buffy but the show never goes into the idea of there being more than two genders or the transgender stampede that worked for some people but left a lot of transgender regret in its path.

Buffy never portrayed cancel culture beyond the coercion of girls in a sorority situation where a girl like Cordelia should never go out with a boy like Xander.

The belief that logic and reason are part of a white patriarchy and should not be permitted does not appear unless you consider any vampire show to be an assault on logic and the blind spot everyone in Sunnydale has for what is going on is part of a rejection of reason.

We may see the Marxist idea of dividing people into oppressor / oppressed may be part of the idea of a slayer from the beginning, but it is not hammered into the viewer's skull every minute like some modern woke writing.

I am not getting into a discussion of Marxist postmodernism but it is obvious, as @thetopher said, that writing from 20 years ago as toxic as what we see in some places now.

So... your argument is that the Buffyverse is not as 'woke' as some shows written nowadays? I guess we can agree on that.

Unfortunately, you haven't shown me how Buffy and Angel didn't have progressive messages that would have gotten the 'anti-woke' crowd riled up today, though, which... was my argument. 😉

 

[thetopher]

To begin with, I'll just point out that you haven't refuted anything I've said in my previous post concerning Buffy and Angel. You just threw some word salad at me about the ever-nebulous meaning of the term 'woke' and thought it worthwhile to tell me that the 'anti-woke' crowd thinks that writing nowadays sucks.

...'threw word salad at me'? As in, 'having a discussion? On a discussion board? What are the odds, right?

Anyway, what you did there is just another example of how the term "woke", and its meaning, will be constantly molded/modified according to whatever need the 'anti-woke' crowd has for it in the context of an argument.

Yes, word meanings change. The word woke is no longer synonymous with the Black community staying aware of their surroundings. You understand that definitions of some words change? Some words are co-opted by different communities. In fact some political factions are very fond of just 'redefining' words to fit their political views. The woke crowd being one of them.

You can move the goal post as much as you want, but, in the end, it is a fact that Buffy (and to a lesser extent Angel) would be considered 'woke' if it came out today, just like some other, older fictional stories featuring feminist messages.

Oh. Is third-wave feminism considered woke? Is it woke enough? Or is it not intersectional enough for the woke crowd.

As I said, it's just difficult to admit this for a lot of 'anti-woke' people because they often use older media (like BtVS) as a 'shield' to defend themselves from any claims that the lens they use to analyze and criticize modern media might be tinted by misogyny, racism, and homophobia, among other things.

That's nice that you feel qualified to speak for so many different groups of people and categorically state what they actually think, secretly. Here I was perhaps pondering if things were more complicated.

As for your claim that "liberals/progressives" hate "woke" as well. Nah, the vast majority of us wouldn't agree with that statement. We'd criticize bad writing, not 'wokeness'. While it seems like those two are inseparable in your eyes, they aren't in ours.

*whew* that's a relief. Now when I want to know what a progressive thinks about a piece of media, I won't ask myself or one of the people I know, I'll just ask you. The one rando on the internet who speaks for all, apparently.


Just admit that you didn't actually understand my post and are desperately wedded to outdated political tribalism, it would've saved you some time.

 

[nightshade]

Let's get back on topic, instead of this what is woke discussion.

 

[Ethan Reigns]

One thing that would not have aged well is Spike calling certain people by the name "poofter", "ponce" or "Nancy boy". The alphabet soup crowd (LGBTQ2SI+) would rail against that today.

 

[hoponlilmama]

One thing that would not have aged well is Spike calling certain people by the name "poofter", "ponce" or "Nancy boy". The alphabet soup crowd (LGBTQ2SI+) would rail against that today.

Agree. If the series was made today those phrases would likely not be used.

Though I think the writers had fun with Spike (and Giles sometimes) because they could get away with using certain words/actions (like Spike's two-fingered salute to Xander in Hush), because it would go over the heads of the network.

 

[Kendar]

I understand the mortal actor playing immortal character problem. Unless Spike or Angel are dating teenagers, I don't think it's a real problem. Brent Spiner played Data several times over the last decade with minimal effort, and it was not an issue.

Spiner/Data is arguably a bit of an outside situation. Since Data was playing a being that wasn't ever human, it was much easier to cover his aging with makeup. DB and JM wearing that level of makeup would make them look unnatural to human eyes, while Data never looked "normal" to human eyes.

And the aging of the actors is something we each just have to decide if we can live with. Selene (Underworld), immortals in the Highlander universe, and so on: They all had to deal with this issue.

 

[Anyanka Bunny Slayer]

...'
Now when I want to know what a progressive thinks about a piece of media, I won't ask myself or one of the people I know, I'll just ask you. The one rando on the internet who speaks for all, apparently.

 

[AlphaFoxtrot]

Yeah, I'm fine with just a touch of makeup. Television isn't real, actors age. To me, it's no different than watching a flashback and pretending everyone had the same hairline in Season 1 and 7, or that Cordie and Faith are the same age and Fred is five years older than than everyone else. Just don't call attention to it

Picard: "I, Gunian, have decided to age thirty human years despite being over 400 years old. Also, Samuel Clemens would never believe how racist the 21st Century is. This information may pay off if Q decides to mess around with you for no raisen."

 

[Tome]

Joss Whedon at the time described himself as a feminist and consistently called himself one until he got outed

I was agreeing with you

That's great, but I wasn't criticizing you for agreeing or disagreeing with me, I was just asking what you meant by that statement. I was genuinely curious because I didn't understand what that had to do with what was being discussed. Did you mean to imply that the show, just like Whedon, wasn't actually feminist?

Let's get back on topic, instead of this what is woke discussion.

As I said, 'woke' doesn't have a clear definition anymore. It's purposefully nebulous. I'm not trying to define it as that would be meaningless when addressing bad faith actors. I was responding to people implying that Buffy and Angel were without progressive messages while they had plenty. This helped both shows age a bit better than other shows from that era. 😉

But moving from that, I think most of the themes in both Buffy and Angel are timeless. I always thought the major theme of BtVS was one of growing up. That is, the wide range of experiences and challenges that come along with maturation and the transition from childhood to adulthood. The path of self-discovery, if you will, which is something Buffy, especially, had to go through.

Meanwhile, in Angel, I think the major theme was finding meaning in life. That's why Angel's line, "If nothing we do matters, then all that matters is what we do" is so meaningful to the show as a whole. More so, in Angel's case, this tied in with the theme of redemption, as the guy had to wrestle with the realization that he could never fully make up for his past. Angel had to find meaning past redemption. Fighting evil because it was there to be fought, and who else than him and his friends to do it?!

I think those themes will always be of actuality and, thus, BtVS and Angel will always age decently well.

 

[Anyanka Bunny Slayer]

Must be hard to hit and run over and over, and never defend your ideas or arguments when put against people who disagree with you. 😉

Awww, did that gif hurt your widdle feelings? Do you require a hug? Perhaps a lollipop or your fuzzy blankie?

Y'know, a few members happily posted their thoughts about this topic. Yet you decided to turn the discussion into a debate/argument; despite the fact that no one was addressing you initially. 😅

Careful, Icarus...

 

[nightshade]

Ok enough with the insults and snide comments, you're here to discuss the question. If you can't do it without making insults and sarcastic remarks to other people then don't post.

 

[spikenbuffy]

The transition between the end of 90's and the beginning of the 00's of the show concerning the characters being more that just good people as they can be neutral/dark who commit bad actions but we love them or sympathise with them is good I think. Nearly every main characters commited murder or killed one time in both shows (Giles, Willow, Faith, Wes, Fred & Gunn, Angel....) Like the likes of shows like 24, Game Of Thrones, The Sopranos, Lost, TVD, Desperate Housewives, Dexter (I never watch it but).... where characters can be bad people and plenty of nowadays shows since then have dark/not so good morally main characters, something that new young viewers can find in BTVS & ATS like in nowadays shows.

 

[silvermoon]

Buffy is a product of its time and also ground-breaking I think. Whedon was outed as a very problem person later on but still put out a great show. There was certainly not a great deal of racial diversity , Principal Wood was basically the only black character to be given weight besides Kendra who some see as a caricature. Asians, Hispanics, etc. were simply not very present unless you count the Chinese exchange student played for laughs. I still find that cringey.

At the time Willow could not be bisexual evidently, which I argue she clearly was,. Apparently she went sour on all men romantically speaking . Despite Oz and her obvious love for him. I think the show did a lot to pave the way despite the inadequate representations, but it was still largely a white world. I think Tara and Willow were incredibly positive characters and it still bugs me that once they're back in 6 Tara has to die. It was also arguably a well-off white world, nobody is poor, check out Giles sporty car even. They were rich kids and everyone lived in a cool huge pad. I ain't talking crypts here ;p

 

[silvermoon]

Buffy is a product of its time and also ground-breaking I think. Whedon was outed as a very problem person later on but still put out a great show. There was certainly not a great deal of racial diversity , Principal Wood was basically the only black character to be given weight besides Kendra who some see as a caricature. Asians, Hispanics, etc. were simply not very present unless you count the Chinese exchange student played for laughs. I still find that cringey.

At the time Willow could not be bisexual evidently, which I argue she clearly was,. Apparently she went sour on all men romantically speaking . Despite Oz and her obvious love for him. I think the show did a lot to pave the way despite the inadequate representations, but it was still largely a white world. I think Tara and Willow were incredibly positive characters and it still bugs me that once they're back in 6 Tara has to die. It was also arguably a well-off white world, nobody is poor, check out Giles sporty car even. They were rich kids and everyone lived in a cool huge pad. I ain't talking crypts here ;p

i didnt really get into Angel but at least Gunn was a frontrunner character yes , i was talking only Buffy though

 

[KaitKat]

There are things that don’t age well the most obvious is how they handle SA to small things like Buffy mimicking Kendra’s accent. I do think overall it has aged well though but I know modern audiences will complain about Xander being a “nice guy” but I think he’s absolutely needed to balance out all the other characters and he was needed to be the person who told Buffy what she didn’t want to hear.

With the exception of earlier monster of the week episodes the writing had something to say without being preachy. Because seasons were longer and this point we got to spend time with characters know them. Buffy also didn’t fall into the not like other girls trope which I think audiences these days are sorely missing. Buffy embraces her femininity rather that reject it…while looking like she was always finishing up a photoshoot.

Basically people that I know that watch Buffy for the first time like it because it doesn’t fall so hard into modern writing tropes so it feels more timeless.

 

[AlphaFoxtrot]

Yeah, LA's Homeless Teen District is the third weirdest place in fiction, topped only by X-Men's Japan.

 

[AlphaFoxtrot]

"The Girl In Question" made negative comments about the Romani People that are still marginally less racist than what the average European thinks about the Gypsies.

 

[Plasma]

I think there are elements of both shows that have and haven’t aged well.

Like it does feel a little…odd…having Gunn be the leader of this group of poor African Americans living in the ghetto. Now eventually he gets brought out and grows a lot as a character, but I feel like there’s better ways to bring in a black cast member than to have them be a hood thug.

Or how Kendra is from Africa, owns apparently one shirt, speaks with a really exaggerated accent and is killed off pretty easily. Same with the blacksploitation look of Nikki Wood or how easily they kill that Asian slayer during the Boxer Rebellion. Not to mention the Gypsy thing.

Inevitably, things are going to age out. Even today, some new show dropping just now has a time limit on it to the point that somewhere in the future, people are gonna say “well that was kind of offensive”. I grant a lot of slack to media because of that and because of the mindsets of the time. Like was it racist to have Batman punching buck toothed squinty eyed caricatures whilst telling you to buy war bonds to beat the Japs? Absolutely! But remember, the world was at war at the time and Japan had allied themselves with the enemy. It’s fruitless to call out something as offensive when the time period and events around it led to that sort of thinking, like post 9/11 anti-Muslim sentiments.

We have to also remember that this was a hugely successful female-led property that also had a pretty prominent lesbian romance S4 onwards and wasn’t afraid to address sexuality. While some aspects may seem not up to date, others were really great and pioneered ideas for future media.