how would you write the end?

[Razekiel]

Trial? Why would Angel give up his whole plan and go to trial? Why would he risk the lives of everyone, making Fred's and Wes' deaths not matter? Going to a lose-lose trial would be pointless. The Senior Partners are not interested in having a trial for the guy who just killed their whole pawn army. They're interested in killing him. He's interested in killing them.

They want him to endure hell and suffering for all eternity rather than killing him, so not really a trial but a sort of trial where they immediatly decide their penalty and then send them to a hell dimension where they will have lots of trouble surviving, where they are put up in endless torture, suffering, pain and despair. Nah, killing them is too easy, and too liberating - they want him and the rest to suffer, and suffer terribly. But as for Angel choosing to go to such a trial, I do doubt that - he would rather die and so would the others.

 

[nerd4hire]

This is fun. I'm going to try to talk you into this OK?

Let's try it with numbers. It might be easier that way.

1. The Senior Partners sign contracts with people. There's no sense to signing a contract unless some power exists that can enforce them.

2. I'm going to suggest to you that whatever made it snow in Amends is that power. (I also suggest both the Senior Partners and the Powers That Be are subservient to this power. Let's call it The Greater Justice)

3. Angel has a contract with the Senior Partners.

OK so back to our story...

If the rain in the Alley turns to snow it indicates there is a greater power governing the good vs evil stuggle of man and demon.

Angel has alway prefered this concept. He would bow to the idea of a greater justice, just as he always goes with the human police when he could easily subdue them. Also he would not want to see the other 3 die unnecessarily, even if they themselves chose to. That's just who Angel is.

The Senior Partners wouldn't want to bow to the will of the Greater Justice, but once it starts to snow we realize they've attracted it's attention, and we know they must obey it's will.

It isn't that they'd want to go to trial. It's that they'd have to.

 

[Ninjalizer]

I think Angel would rather die trying than go to trial. So would the rest of em who risked their lives to get to the alley. That's my opinion...and sorry nerd4hire, but you're not changing that.

And the Senior Partners seem to be the highest power...can't see any "Greater Justice" showing up all the sudden in the very last episode. It wouldn't make sense, and would be a cheap cop-out.

 

[nerd4hire]

I think Angel would rather die trying than go to trial. So would the rest of em who risked their lives to get to the alley. That's my opinion...and sorry nerd4hire, but you're not changing that.

That's cool. You know, opinions...everybody's got one.

And the Senior Partners seem to be the highest power...can't see any "Greater Justice" showing up all the sudden in the very last episode. It wouldn't make sense, and would be a cheap cop-out.

This however we must discuss. On this matter you appear to be plain and simple, black and white incorrect.

If you sign a contract, something has to exist capable of enforcing it. Otherwise why do you need a contract?

Consider Angel being able to take Eve and Lindsey into protective custody. There has to be a law making this rule enforcable, otherwise why would the SP allow it.

The only possible arguement to this would be if the SPs were all-powerful, and created the rules for their own amusement. The problem with that theory is the SPs are not all-powerful. Illyria tells us this when she tells us the Wolf Ram and Hart were weak in her day, on the level of the vampire.

So what would be more powerful. Again I go back to whatever made it snow in Amends. I've never seen a satisfactory explanation of what exactly that was.

We know it wanted Angel alive. At this point in the story the SPs did not appear to care if Angel lived or not. If they did, Lindsey and Lilah didn't appear to know about it. They hired Faith to try to kill him.

We also know it would take great supernatural power to make it snow on a hot day in Southern California. In my personal opinion this goes beyond anything the SPs have shown themselves capable of.

 

[WatcherWes]

Here's how i see the fight going down. Everyone starts going at it. None of the Fang Gang is down yet, but things aren't going well. Suddenly, the dragon screeches, and starts plummeting towards the earth, landing on a significant number of demons. We see Groosalugg, the brave and undefeated standing atop the Hyperion, smiling proudly, covered in dragon blood. He jumps down, joining the fight, while something starts DESTROYING the demon horde from the back. It's the Destroyer himself, Connor. He super leaps over the horde, regrouping with Angel, Spike, Gunn, Groo, and Illariya. They realize that while horde has been diminished, they still are vastly outnumbered, and run inside the Hyperion. The Groosalugg informs the gang that he and Connor were contacted by Lorne, who upon his decision to abandon the gang, saw to it that they wouldn't be left shorthanded. Connor mentions that Lorne also reinstalled the sanctuary spell, preventing demon on human and demon on demon violence. however, that only holds as long as the walls of the Hyperion do, and the giant outside is making damn sure that the hotel won't be around much longer, however, it does allow them a respite, and gives them the opportunity to patch up Gunn. As the walls begin to giveway, they set out for the tunnels, unsure of what to do, but they just know they gotta go.

 

[Ninjalizer]

That's cool. You know, opinions...everybody's got one.

indeed.

This however we must discuss. On this matter you appear to be plain and simple, black and white incorrect.

If you sign a contract, something has to exist capable of enforcing it. Otherwise why do you need a contract?

Angel would have signed a contract becoming the head of the L.A. branch. Wolfram and Hart would be enforcing it. That or The Senior Partners. Why would you try to go higher?

Consider Angel being able to take Eve and Lindsey into protective custody. There has to be a law making this rule enforcable, otherwise why would the SP allow it.

A law? Allow it? If you will remember, the SP didn't allow it. Take Lindsays story. He hid from the SP with his mystical tattoos. Angel and Cordy got rid of that. The SP then were able to see Lindsay, and took him away to the holding dimension. Illyria was able to get him out.

Now we'll take Eve's story. Angel was keeping Eve safe to find out more info...that's when we find out that SP aren't going to put up with Eve, so they send Hamilton out. The SP didn't have to "allow" anything. They didn't have to set any law that allows Angel to hold Lindsay and Eve. They deal with it.

The only possible arguement to this would be if the SPs were all-powerful, and created the rules for their own amusement. The problem with that theory is the SPs are not all-powerful. Illyria tells us this when she tells us the Wolf Ram and Hart were weak in her day, on the level of the vampire.

I don't see where you're going with this, sorry.

So what would be more powerful. Again I go back to whatever made it snow in Amends. I've never seen a satisfactory explanation of what exactly that was.

We know it wanted Angel alive. At this point in the story the SPs did not appear to care if Angel lived or not. If they did, Lindsey and Lilah didn't appear to know about it. They hired Faith to try to kill him.

They are called The Powers That Be. The force that took Cordy. You're forgetting them.

We also know it would take great supernatural power to make it snow on a hot day in Southern California. In my personal opinion this goes beyond anything the SPs have shown themselves capable of.

The main problem is that it would STILL be a cop-out to just throw on this new power "The Greater Justice" in the last episode. They never mentioned anything like this, so it would be stupid to just introduce them in the last minute of the dramatic finale. I can understand your point if this "Greater Justice" was discussed previously...but if you're telling me that they would jus throw it in...then I'm not with you.

 

[nerd4hire]

indeed.



Angel would have signed a contract becoming the head of the L.A. branch. Wolfram and Hart would be enforcing it. That or The Senior Partners. Why would you try to go higher?

Let's try an example. You buy a car on payments. You drive it off the lot. You register it. If no law existed to enforce the contract, why would you make a second payment.

The presence of a contract implies the presence of a higher authority to enforce it.

A law? Allow it? If you will remember, the SP didn't allow it. Take Lindsays story. He hid from the SP with his mystical tattoos. Angel and Cordy got rid of that. The SP then were able to see Lindsay, and took him away to the holding dimension. Illyria was able to get him out.

Yes, but how were they able to keep him out? They had to have used the same clause in Angel's contract that allowed him to take Eve into protective custody. Gunn explains it in Undeneath

GUNN
(looks at Angel, sighs, looks down)
There's a proviso in your contract. Says that as CEO of a Wolfram & Hart branch, you can invoke a rapio salvus order. Basically says you're taking custody of a wayward employee.

Let's move one.

Now we'll take Eve's story. Angel was keeping Eve safe to find out more info...that's when we find out that SP aren't going to put up with Eve, so they send Hamilton out. The SP didn't have to "allow" anything. They didn't have to set any law that allows Angel to hold Lindsay and Eve. They deal with it.

True, but when Angel was first faced with the problem of how to protect Eve, that was when they first introduced the protection clause in Angel's contract.

I don't see where you're going with this, sorry.

Doesn't surprise me. It will come to you eventually though, once you understand the concept that a contract implies a higher power to enforce it. Let's move on.

They are called The Powers That Be. The force that took Cordy. You're forgetting them.

Actually no. Do you remember this from earlier in the thread.

What exactly did make it snow in Amends anyway? There's an arguement that goes it was something bigger than the Senior Partners, or even the Powers That Be

There's nothing new or forced about a greater power existing in Angel with laws to which all known entities are subservient. True, it's never outright stated, but it's not a gigantic leap in logic to say it's implied.

The main problem is that it would STILL be a cop-out to just throw on this new power "The Greater Justice" in the last episode. They never mentioned anything like this, so it would be stupid to just introduce them in the last minute of the dramatic finale. I can understand your point if this "Greater Justice" was discussed previously...but if you're telling me that they would jus throw it in...then I'm not with you.

Nothing needs to be thrown in. It's already there. See above.

 

[Ninjalizer]

Let's try an example. You buy a car on payments. You drive it off the lot. You register it. If no law existed to enforce the contract, why would you make a second payment.

The presence of a contract implies the presence of a higher authority to enforce it.

The dealership = Wolfram and Hart
The contract you sign is with the car dealership and/or a bank. Nothing higher than that.

Yes, but how were they able to keep him out? They had to have used the same clause in Angel's contract that allowed him to take Eve into protective custody. Gunn explains it in Undeneath

It doesn't have to mean there was a law/contract. They got him out by slipping the neclace on Gunn. You're argument on having a contract to have Lindsay in custody is like saying Angel needs a contract to have a sandwich. It's pointless.

Doesn't surprise me. It will come to you eventually though, once you understand the concept that a contract implies a higher power to enforce it. Let's move on.

Doesn't surprise me? This was a cheap jab and not needed. Your statement doesn't make sense, and we don't need to waste time talking about it. You are missing the whole point. You traveled down the road of contracts and enforcement too much. I'll get to this later.

Actually no. Do you remember this from earlier in the thread.

Remember what? Please make your thoughts and questions clear.

There's nothing new or forced about a greater power existing in Angel with laws to which all known entities are subservient. True, it's never outright stated, but it's not a gigantic leap in logic to say it's implied.

Nothing needs to be thrown in. It's already there. See above.

This is what I want to talk about. This is ALL I wanted to discuss. I don't know why you had to bring in contracts/laws/whatever. You answer it yourself with "true, it's never outright stated...". That, my friend, would be terrible television. Thinking that all the fans will somehow logically think like you. The main point is that it would be stupid to bring in something new to the show a minute before the series is over. For example (and think about this), they're getting ready to fight the band of demons. A big devil like creature with red hair and fire coming from its nose comes and kills all the demons. Angel and crew stand there and smile. Credits. Pretty stupid huh? Why? Many reasons. The main one is "what the hell was that? they never introduced a big devil creature to us". Just like this "Greater Justice" you are speaking of. I guarantee fans would be outraged at your ending, seeing some "higher power" that they have never heard of all the sudden surface, and end the show.

 

[Razekiel]

I think what nerd4hire means about contracts is that something is always there to make sure it is followed through. And since there is a "law" that enabled Angel to take Lindsey into his custody which would prevent the SP from taking him back to the hell dimension, then what is stopping them from really doing it? However I much doubt there is a Greater Justice and eitherway it would be a bad bad idea to bring them in the last minute without any previous introduction. That would piss many people off to find out what the anticipated blowout of the SP is immediatly stopped by sheer luck from Angels part. And besides Angel threw himself off the Shanshu and any future "missions" or "Prophecys" which involve him. TPTB see no reason to continue having him as their champion, he is no longer a champion. Therefor they would not get involved either. There was no confirmation or disconfirmation of there being a greater justice causing the snow. So then we must generally assume there isnt, since otherwise we could naturally just assume there is anything. We could assume Angel turns into a big flappy gargoyle and blasts everyone with his hypersonic ray. ok ok bad example but still.

It is unlikely that Angel would give up and go to trial, he has no faith in the SP for that. And none of the others would go for it either, not only did they kill Wesley, but they are the ones behind everything evil that has ever happened. Why would they trust them to be fair?

 

[Ninjalizer]

I think what nerd4hire means about contracts is that something is always there to make sure it is followed through. And since there is a "law" that enabled Angel to take Lindsey into his custody which would prevent the SP from taking him back to the hell dimension, then what is stopping them from really doing it?

Yeah, I understand what he's saying. He was using examples while straying from the main point. And I think the reason for them not trying to get Lindsay back was possibly that they already had a replacement in the hell dimension (finding a loop hole in the contract), or he just wasn't a big worry for them anymore. They had bigger things planned...The Apocolypse. But I really don't think the point mattered.

However I much doubt there is a Greater Justice and eitherway it would be a bad bad idea to bring them in the last minute without any previous introduction. That would piss many people off to find out what the anticipated blowout of the SP is immediatly stopped by sheer luck from Angels part. And besides Angel threw himself off the Shanshu and any future "missions" or "Prophecys" which involve him.

Exactly. Thank you

It is unlikely that Angel would give up and go to trial, he has no faith in the SP for that. And none of the others would go for it either, not only did they kill Wesley, but they are the ones behind everything evil that has ever happened. Why would they trust them to be fair?

Very very true. It would be out of character for both parties.

 

[Razekiel]

I just remembered something else, if there is a 'Greater Justice' they would have no reason to stop the SP from killing Angel and the fang-gang. Because they signed a contract, and stated on random occasion breaking the contract = death and ruthless torture. Heck forget which episode but the one with Lindsey having super-powers, they even showed what would be released if Angel ever decided to go crazy on Wolfram and Hart. Who knows those arent what was in there?

So if there is a Greater Justice, impartial that upholds law and contracts - then they would be on the Senior Partners side. Eitherway, Angel is screwed.

 

[nerd4hire]

I think I may see what the problem is. You guys seem to think I'm inventing something larger than the Senior Partners that even they are answerable to.

I am saying that is the case, but I'm not inventing it. It exists. It's almost a mathematical formula. If a law exists then something has to exist capable of enforcing it.

I'm assuming you guys are thinking of something like what happens in a dictatorship where the ruler invents the law then, enforces it. Even if that were the case here, if the Senior Partners must abide by that law (and it appears they must), it becomes bigger than they are.

I could of course debate against the Senior Partners as ultimate rulers idea, but it's not really necessary. At this point we've entered the realm of opinion.

In your opinion the Buffy/Angelverse is a dictatorship ruled by evil with the Senior Partners of Angel as the ultimate rulers.

In my opinion the Buffy/Angelverse is enforced by a power the Senior Partners are answerable to. When they sign a contract they must comply to the power that enforces that contract. It doesn't matter what you call that power. Call it the powers that be, or call it the great, pink, bunny if you like.

Am I inventing the existence of such a power? No more than you are inventing the idea of the Senior Partners as being the ultimate power. It's just 2 different conclusions from the same information.

 

[Razekiel]

As a side note, any law can also be broken, and any lawbreaking can also be covered up so that whoever they have to answer to never finds out. Much like the Mafia often does, cover up murders etc. I very much doubt this greater power has a mind of its own though, or a corpoeal, non-corporeal form. It must be a wide-spread entity that exists in everything and everyone, determined to maintain a balance of force. And in such, it also would uphold any paranormal contracts that are written, no matter how they are written.

But assuming for a moment this greater power exists, were you trying to say that it would help Angel? Because Angel broke his contract by destroying Wolfram and Hart, needless to say that must be contract breaking. So would not then WOlfram and Hart unleash all hell upon him, for breaking the contract - as stated in the Lindsey episode. The things in that container were there in case Angel or his friends would decide to break his contract.

 

[nerd4hire]

were you trying to say that it would help Angel? Because Angel broke his contract

Yes. I'm seeing a "Devil and Daniel Webster" kind of thing over a contract issue.

 

[Kuznya]

The idea of a "great justice" is orginal but totally un needed. You keep saying that the contracts signed must be able to be enforced in order to have meaning as such there must be some higher power over the SP's to make these contracts valid. So my question to you is what the higher power over humanity that enforces our laws.

Human law is created, maintained and enforced by humans. We have a goverment this is true but its still made up of and run by humans who are just as accountable *ok not really but in theory they are* to the laws as anyone else. Demon law, im sure, is pretty much the same. Rules setup by demon kind to monitor and maintain some semblance of order among the demon world.

There doesnt have to be "some higher power" to enforce the SP's contracts. They have shown time and again they are perfectly capable of enforcing the punishments for breach of contract time and again. The SP's abide by the contracts they make because it does them more harm to break contracts then it does to keep them. They are in a business *even if it is the end of the world* and you cant run a business if you never keep your obligations.

And get over the whole snow thing will you. Whoever or whatever caused the snowstorm to save Angel from killing himself is not going to use it as some kind of calling card. Hey all look I made it snow in Cali during the summer fear my supreme power and bow down before me /rolls eyes.

 

[Ninjalizer]

I think I may see what the problem is. You guys seem to think I'm inventing something larger than the Senior Partners that even they are answerable to.

I am saying that is the case, but I'm not inventing it. It exists. It's almost a mathematical formula. If a law exists then something has to exist capable of enforcing it.

I don't think you do see what the problem is. You ARE inventing this higher power. It may exist, but since the writers have not introduced this power in the series, YOU are inventing it.

 

[nerd4hire]

Inventing it, no. Describing it badly, possibly.

If a law it exists that Wolfram and Hart must be compliant to (and obviously there is) then that is the higher power.

It doesn't matter if it is the Amends snow or the Tribunal from the episode Judgement, there is precedence in the Angelverse of otherworldly law, and superior power under which an alternative to the fight to the death in the alley is possible.

 

[Liam]

Inventing it, no. Describing it badly, possibly.

If a law it exists that Wolfram and Hart must be compliant to (and obviously there is) then that is the higher power.

It doesn't matter if it is the Amends snow or the Tribunal from the episode Judgement, there is precedence in the Angelverse of otherworldly law, and superior power under which an alternative to the fight to the death in the alley is possible.

Why would the SP need another power to govern their own laws?? Though I really doubt the SP are the highest, they really don't need another higher power to enforce their own rules...

And Angel isn't more powerful. Hamilton was weaker after Angel drank his blood, thus his line "What's that you were saying about ancient power?"

 

[nerd4hire]

Hey, 10 to 1. I like these odds. Makes me feel like Angel 🙂

I'm wondering why you're all so violenly opposed to the concept of a trial. I'm thinking it's because you're all locked into the idea of a magnificent battle with Buffy swinging in from the rooftops, and the electric-girl walking in from around the corner, or whatever.

Remember...the one constant about Joss, is he does the unexpected. Whatever you're expecting, that's what's not going to happen.

But let's get back to it...

Why would the SP need another power to govern their own laws??

They wouldn't, but a better question would be why would they need those laws if there is no larger power. Here's a possibility.

Consider the Shanshu prophecy. Angel can sign a contract signing away his right to Shanshu. He does this because the Blackthorn need proof he is giving up all desire for anything good. This implies the Shanshu is a good thing.

If it is a creation of the SPs it implies the SPs are creating good, perhaps as a kind of temptation. Even if this is true the offering of hope means nothing without confidence in the possibillty things can get better.

Under the "the Senior Partners run it all" theorem this would explain why the SPs would need an enforceable law under which hope is possible. Hope to lead mankind where it wants it. The law to disintegrate that hope at the end.

Nevertheless if that law exists, and it is enforceable, the possibility of a trial exists with consequences the SPs must honor.

The other possibility concerning the Shanshu would be the idea of a power larger than the SPs creating the universal laws that make the Shanshu possible. Under such law, a trial would also be possible.

If you were writing a fanfic, you could go either way. There is evidence in the Angelverse allowing you to put forth either idea.

And Angel isn't more powerful.

I don't know who said he was, but it wasn't me.

 

[Guestage_87]

This whole conversation is the proof of how brilliant the the cliffhanger was. I know some people wish it was wrapped up in a nut shell, but it's so much better to leave us hanging and making up our own conclusions. Look some of us think that Buffy and co. would come running in from the rooftops saving the day (not me), others think that they would be taken in for a trial (again, not me) while seemingly N4H has not taken what he has seen over just this season, but throughout the history of both shows and has come up with his very interesting conclusion about a justice higher than the SP(although, I'm not in that school of thought, everyone should back off him. There are worse conclusions to come to like the idea of Buffy and co. saving the day, at least he put alot of thought into his theory) and there are others who thinks it ends the way it looks like it ends, with the bloody deaths of all four. Either way, it is all up in the air now, thanks to ME for leaving it to our imaginations and not wrapping it up in a happy ending.