Humanity Regained

[white avenger]

The subject of a vampire, primarily Angel has come up before, but I'm not sure that this aspect of it has been considered, so...

Assuming that a vampire becomes human again, either as a reward or as a curse, who would the human be? In Angel's case, would he revert to Liam, or would the personality of the demon who reanimated Liam remain? Or, if it were Spike, would bloody awful poet William, milquetoast personified, return? For instance,we've always taken for granted that, if Angel receives the Shanshu, the result will be simply Angel made mortal, but why? Angel isn't Liam, and Liam isn't the person who did all of the things that Angelus and Angel did, so why should he be affected by, or even remember then? William isn't the one who turned and then staked his own mother and killed two Slayers, Spike did. Why should William remember or be affected by things that, basically, another being did while occupying his body?

If the demon who made the body a vampire is expelled from its host, who is then restored to normal human life, wouldn't it make more sense, especially for the sanity of the person involved, for that person to be who they were before death, with only vague memories, or none at all, of what the vampire who used their body did?

 

[BuffyThoughts]

We do have the case of Darla, who was brought back as a human by W&H. She remembered her time as a vampire, and apparently liked the memory. I don't remember hat she ever "reminisced" in great detail, but my impression was that she remembered it all. She wasn't what she was in her first human form. That was back in the 17th century, wasn't? What would a woman from that time possibly make out of our time?

It seems to me that the "new human" would be affected by the process of its past.

 

[Evil Bunny]

Okay, I like your train of thoughts. But I think maybe we can explain it this way: Spike isn't Wiliam anymore because the soul is gone - but William is still in Spike. And Angel isn't Liam, but Liam is Angel. Gee, in my head it makes more sense than it does when I type it out. 😛

But where I'm getting at is... If you have Liam and you take away his conscience, his sense of right and wrong, his humility, his moral compas.. you still have Liams desires, his humor, his strongness of will and other parts of his character. But his actions completely change because the rest was taken away. Still.. a part of Liam is still there in Spike.

Come to think of it.. remember this from Doppelgangland?
Willow: It's horrible. That's me as a vampire? I'm so evil, and skanky... and I think I'm kinda gay.
Buffy: Willow, just remember, a vampire's personality has nothing to do with the person it was.
Angel: Well, actually...
[pauses as Willow and Buffy look at him]
Angel: That's a good point.

So I think they remember because in a way it was them who did all those things.

 

[dexeded]

That's only if we swallow the Council's propaganda-y teachings. It's like the hazy definition of a soul--At first, it seems Angel and Angelus are two different beings, but then Spike comes along, and there's no Spike-gelus, right? (Okay, Spike-gelus didn't sound as stupid in my head as it does now, but still.) So do we still trust the Council? Is the vampire just a demon inhabited the human's body, with its memories? Which would mean, of course, that it was the demon of both Angel and Spike (or maybe the soul, in Angel's case) that fell in love with Buffy, if a vampire is nothing but a demon with the host human's body and memories.

But to answer your question, I think it'll be like IWRY, when Angel just physically became a human. And like the whole Darla thing.

 

[InsaneMystic]

It mainly boils down to what a "soul" is, and in how far it's something different from a "mind".

Seeing as I consider it the least inconsistent way of reading canon to assume "soul" to simple equal "capability for empathy", and to consider the demon animating the vampire's dead body almost close to mindless (kinda like a rabid animal), I doubt there'd be much difference in personality between a souled vampire and said vampire humanized; the difference would lie in biology/"necrology" and thus mainly boil down to the stripping of all the supernatural boons (strength, speed, regeneration etc) and drawbacks (no reflection, vulnerable to sunlight etc).

 

[VisionGirl]

It mainly boils down to what a "soul" is, and in how far it's something different from a "mind".

Seeing as I consider it the least inconsistent way of reading canon to assume "soul" to simple equal "capability for empathy", and to consider the demon animating the vampire's dead body almost close to mindless (kinda like a rabid animal), I doubt there'd be much difference in personality between a souled vampire and said vampire humanized; the difference would lie in biology/"necrology" and thus mainly boil down to the stripping of all the supernatural boons (strength, speed, regeneration etc) and drawbacks (no reflection, vulnerable to sunlight etc).

Very interesting. It seems to really vary between vampires though, doesn't it. The only examples we have in canon is Angel in IWRY and Darla in season 2 of ATS. Angel seemed to enjoy being human and deeply desires it (although yes, his lack of strength and ability to do what he once was able to bothered him), while Darla hated it and wanted to be turned, even before she found out that she was dying of syphillus. I'm re-watching season 2 right now, and I can't help wondering what Darla would have been like if she had not been killed & sired (again). Of course she would have died, but what would her state of mind had been like. Maybe if given more time she would have become less "evil". It's hard to compare since Angel had had his soul for so much longer, and clearly had to "evolve" into what he became as a Champion. Of course we all know that "soul" and "human" is not analogous to "good" or "moral". We have lots of example in the 'verse of humans and souled beings being even more evil than demons.

 

[InsaneMystic]

Very interesting. It seems to really vary between vampires though, doesn't it. The only examples we have in canon is Angel in IWRY and Darla in season 2 of ATS. Angel seemed to enjoy being human and deeply desires it (although yes, his lack of strength and ability to do what he once was able to bothered him), while Darla hated it and wanted to be turned, even before she found out that she was dying of syphillus.

If I'm correct in my assumption that the demon is "mindless", then the "mind" would be continuous through all states - pre-siring, sired, [ensouled,] humanized.* The personality (which will determine the reaction to becoming human again) would then have changed/developed throughout all of these phases, varying at least as much (probably considerably more) between vampires who arrive at humanization than it does between humans, who at least have in common to experience all of their existence in State One.

After all, Darla had spent quite considerably more time as a soulless vampire than the Bad Hair Dude did, and no time at all as an ensouled vampire. This difference in experience should likely account for a lot of difference in point of view.


* Sadly, one of the big inconsistencies/plotholes in Angel S4 apparently contradicts this theory. Soulless Angelus knew The Beast, ensouled Bad Hair Dude doesn't. Seeing as I regard the guy as pretty much the most dissociative, "Hollywood schizophrenic" character in the show, though, it just might be him using dissociative repression a bit too well... even though that explanation sounds a bit too fanwanky to persuade even myself. 😉

 

[HalloweenRain]

"HalloweenRain agrees: *Sighs* I want to read that last bit, but it's too small and it just looks like white lines"

Nevermind I figured out how to do it...

 

[VisionGirl]

If I'm correct in my assumption that the demon is "mindless", then the "mind" would be continuous through all states - pre-siring, sired, [ensouled,] humanized.* The personality (which will determine the reaction to becoming human again) would then have changed/developed throughout all of these phases, varying at least as much (probably considerably more) between vampires who arrive at humanization than it does between humans, who at least have in common to experience all of their existence in State One.

After all, Darla had spent quite considerably more time as a soulless vampire than the Bad Hair Dude did, and no time at all as an ensouled vampire. This difference in experience should likely account for a lot of difference in point of view.

A-ha, so you're saying that the vampire retains the mind but not the soul. Hmm, that could explain a lot.

* Sadly, one of the big inconsistencies/plotholes in Angel S4 apparently contradicts this theory. Soulless Angelus knew The Beast, ensouled Bad Hair Dude doesn't. Seeing as I regard the guy as pretty much the most dissociative, "Hollywood schizophrenic" character in the show, though, it just might be him using dissociative repression a bit too well... even though that explanation sounds a bit too fanwanky to persuade even myself. 😉

Yes, this is the only time that this occurs (well, except for the temporary "amnesia" & confusion that seems to occur when a vampire is sired or ensouled). I'm doing an AtS re-watch (I think I'm repeating myself LOL), but I'm not to season 4 yet. Wasn't there some kind of spell or something with that- that the Beast or Jasmine wiped that part of Angel/Angelus' memory? I just can't remember now.

 

[InsaneMystic]

Yes, this is the only time that this occurs (well, except for the temporary "amnesia" & confusion that seems to occur when a vampire is sired or ensouled). I'm doing an AtS re-watch (I think I'm repeating myself LOL), but I'm not to season 4 yet. Wasn't there some kind of spell or something with that- that the Beast or Jasmine wiped that part of Angel/Angelus' memory? I just can't remember now.

Been a while since I watched S4, myself (and I don't have it on DVD yet)... IIRC, Jasmine wiped out the memory of The Beast for everyone in the world, but as Angelus "wasn't around at that time because the Bad Hair Dude was ensouled", Angelus managed to retain that memory in spite of the spell, so the Fang Gang arranged for loss of soul to find out facts that nobody else in the world would know but Angelus.

It's in prety blatant conflict with all the "constantly there in the back of my mind" and the "has just been waiting for a good fight" in The Dark Age - but then again, the strength of S4 is tension and entertainment, not logical consistency. 😉

 

[VisionGirl]

Ooh, so I wasn't entirely wrong! That's good to know, I was about to blame my age. 🙂