Hypocrite Buffy

Willow Rosenberg

Willow Rosenberg

I might be just like you!
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I just watched "Real Me" the other day. Dawn is introduced as a character and she is said to be a 14 year old girl. Dawn is about the same exact age that Buffy was when she was called (she turned 17 in S2, was 15/16 when the show started, and around 14/15 when called).

Why does Buffy feel the need to protect Dawn so badly, yet she allowed her newly formed friends (Willow/Xander/Cordelia) who were in their young teens fight beside her and be exposed to death and slayage.... :banghead:
 
I know, that annoyed me too. It wasn't until Grave that Buffy said to Dawn that she wants to show the world to her instead of hide it.
 
Maybe for the exact reason that she and her friends were thrown into it that early. My guess is that she wanted Dawn to be a normal girl, she wanted Dawn to have the life she never got the chance to have. But she took it too far, and made Dawn feel lonely, and left outside. But I wouldn't call her a hypocrite cos of that!
 
I think that if she let dawn in a little more into her world, she wouldn't be wasting so much energy trying to protect her. As the slayer she knows there is Big Bad's she can't protect Dawn from, why keep treating her like a little wuss and holding her back?
 
Cordelia said:
I think that if she let dawn in a little more into her world, she wouldn't be wasting so much energy trying to protect her. As the slayer she knows there is Big Bad's she can't protect Dawn from, why keep treating her like a little wuss and holding her back?
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I agree with that. I think the problem was that everyone wanted to protect Dawn, they wanted her to have a normal life, but none of them realised she never could have a normal life. Buffy wanted to protect her, but didn't see she protected her in the wrong way. If she had let Dawn into her world, and teached her how to defend herself, she wouldn't have to protect her all the time. But Dawn is smart enough to learn on her own, she showed that in Grave.
 
C
Cordelia
Well said..I totally agree.
J
Jacklyn
My thoughts exactly!
P
polexia
well said!!!
Cordelia said:
I just watched "Real Me" the other day. Dawn is introduced as a character and she is said to be a 14 year old girl. Dawn is about the same exact age that Buffy was when she was called (she turned 17 in S2, was 15/16 when the show started, and around 14/15 when called).

Why does Buffy feel the need to protect Dawn so badly, yet she allowed her newly formed friends (Willow/Xander/Cordelia) who were in their young teens fight beside her and be exposed to death and slayage.... :banghead:
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I think Buffy thought in some aspect that she could hide Dawn from death. You know, so she wouldn't have to see what Buffy had seen? In the ending of S6 I think she realizes that experience means strength in some form, and tells Dawn that she wants to show her the world. :globe:
But hey, What to I know? I'm an only child! ::dk::
 
When Buffy was called she was used to being able to fight the unspeakable evil without having to look over her shoulder and worrying about saving someone.
She couldn't stop Willow and Xander or Cordy from helping her(they could've walked out at any time) though she did put some limits on what they did...even though she didn't have authority over them.
But the Dawn thing is completely different...the reason Buffy had to keep Dawn from the slayage and death was partly because of Joyce, she would kill Buffy if she didn't protect her...and partly beacuse Dawn was her sis🙂 But when Joyce died...Buffy had to go into mom mode...but then she realized that Dawn could handle it so she started showing her the world instead of hiding it from her.

I kinda get what Buffy felt because I have a sis...🙂
 
Of course, in the movie Buffy didn't think she was ready either. This also follows the same logic a lot of parents seem to follow: "Yeah, I did it--but you shouldn't."
 
Buffy didn't allow anyone anything. They kinda found out, it's not like she could turn back the clock. First of all. Second of all, she was lonely and obviously a great judge of character for letting both Willow and Xander in. (who were 2 years older than Dawn).
And as for Dawn - her bratassness didn't exactly give away the impression of an independent or reliable person. Even without the key, she was as though made to get in trouble and cause trouble - how else should Buffy have treated her?
 
Agreed sweetheart, comparing Buffy's decisions about Dawn to her choices to let Willow and Xander into her world is totally pointless as it is two completely different things.

Willow and Xander were older than Dawn was at the point we are discussing, they were the same age as Buffy was as a matter of fact so she could hardly tell them they were too young to help. Also they fell into her world, it wasn't a choice Buffy made to bring them in and constantly put their lives in danger. Even so she said to both of them as far back as The Witch that she didn't expect them to be involved and that the work was dangerous. They still made it clear they wanted in despite her warnings.

Most importantly though, no matter how much she may have cared about them both, that is a far different thing to how she would feel about her little sister in the same circumstances. Letting Dawn put herself in danger week after week was hardly going to be high on Buffy's list of things to do!

Basically you can't call Buffy a hypocrite for not wanting to allow her little sis to get involved in her world. What you could call her is a damn good older sister! 🙂
 
J
Jaded
[No message]
Your points would be good if Buffy wasn't the slayer who attracted evil from as far away as other dimensions. Dawn could have been a much better use to her if she had begun to "show her the world" starting from the very beginning. A "damn good older sister" would have taught her sister more about how to defend herself when she came up against the inevitable evils of the world.
 
You are still not thinking like an older sister would.

I'm an older brother and my first instinct in any dangerous situation is to protect my sister, not to train her up and send her out to fight her own battles, especially not if I was the one with the super powers and she was only human. Buffy's priority was to keep Dawn away from danger. That seems like something a good sister would do to me, not a hypocrite.

But more importantly, at the point we are discussing it was technically Dawn who was attracting the evil from other dimensions, in the form of Glory. Keeping Dawn as far away from the action and out of sight was the best possible option. Taking her on missions and training her up to be a fully fledged Scooby would only have made it all the more likely that she would come to Glory's attention.
 
Yeah I don't know how I would not think like an older sister...especially considering I've been one for the last twenty years.

Actually training her to be a fully fledged scooby would have made her LESS suspicious, but none of that matters anyway because she came to Glory's attention through Tara.

You say Buffy's priority was to keep Dawn away from danger...because no one in her life was kept away from danger right? Buffy in no way could not fully protect anyone around her from danger...the reason they all survived so long is because they learned how to fight back, whether it be magic, fighting skills, or weirdly attained military training.
 
Okay, let's get back to basics here because you seem to be missing my point.

You have a younger sister or brother right? And you also have close friends? Are you telling me that you consider them both in the same way? That decisions you make concerning your younger sibling are the same as ones you make for your friends?

Of course they aren't, because it is two entirely different things! Buffy cannot be called a hypocrite for making a decision about her younger sister that differs from one she made about two close friends because it simply isn't a fair comparison. Simple as that.
 
I've always thought of my sister to be a fully capable and intelligent person. I've defended her before, but I never babied her. My true friends and family are treated basically equally, because I have respect for them all, some I just happen to be connected to via blood ties. Friends are the family you get to choose.

Buffy's always treated her friends and family very similarly. She's gone out of her way to protect them both and if anything was shown to be, up until season 5, much closer to her friends.

Pagan said:
Okay, let's get back to basics here because you seem to be missing my point.
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Please don't insult my or anyone else's intelligence. Just because I don't see eye to eye with you doesn't mean my arguments don't have merit.
 
You can not compare being a regular person and having a younger sibling to being the Chosen One and having a younger sibling.

Buffy's home was a constant target for badness. Buffy and her family were attacked many times by the forces of darkness that Buffy was given the power to fight.

So while Buffy's attempts to keep Dawn away from evil may have had good intentions, it was definately not reasonable in her circumstances.

And if you watch "Grave" (Season 6, Episode 22), you will see that even Buffy herself realizes this.

She was trying to keep Dawn safe but the consequence was that Dawn was not able to fully see the world.

Also in Lessons she finally begins to give Dawn training. Doesn't it make more sense to prepare your sister to fight a vampire than to have her simply hide.

And considering the facts about how bad Sunnydale is, it makes sense to teach your 14 year old sister how to fight especially when she might be attacked by vamps on her way home from studying Algebra at her friend's home.
 
C
Cordelia
Well said. You never cease to surprise me.
Oh don't get me wrong Cordelia, my sister is more than capable of looking after herself, real tough cookie! 🙂 Doesn't mean that I would stand by and let her risk her neck if there was something I could do about it though.

See what this boils down to is instinctual behaviour to me. When it comes to my friends I'm protective but at the end of the day they make their own choices and decisions and I'm not responsible for that. They do what they want.

When it comes to my sister it's not the same at all. No matter what mess she gets herself in I'm her older brother and therefore I step in to protect her, whether or not she asks me to or even wants me to.

That is how I see this situation with Buffy. You really can't expect her to see Dawn in the same way she sees Willow or Xander because no matter how much she loves her friends she will always love Dawn that little bit more. That isn't her being a hypocrite, it's just human nature.

Slayer said:
You can not compare being a regular person and having a younger sibling to being the Chosen One and having a younger sibling.
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Of course you can, certainly from Buffy's point of view at least.

When it came to her relationship with Dawn she wasn't the slayer at heart, she was Dawn's big sister. That was all that mattered to her. The thing about Joss' characters is that despite their powers they react with human emotions and that is exactly what Buffy was doing in protecting Dawn in the way she attempted to do.

Big sister reaction first, slayer second.
 
Haha but that is the thing:

Buffy isn't fully human. She is more than that. She has the superpowers, the calling and the prophecies.

During Season 5 and 6 I could totally have imagined Buffy endangering the safety of the world to protect poor little Dawn. While it would have been noble, it would have not been the best thing for the greater good.

Buffy should have trained Dawn and exposed her to her nightly duties a bit more. Then maybe Dawn would have known more about vampires and demons and not put herself constantly in danger.

And when danger happened to stumble across her, she would have been able to protect herself.

You may be the average brother who has the instincts to do these things, but Buffy is not average. She is the Slayer and that completely changes the setting.

And answer this question:

If you lived on the hellmouth, would you not want your siblings or parents to be able to protect themselves when a vampire jumps out at them in an alley. Huh? Without Buffy showing Dawn "her world", Dawn would not be able to protect herself. She can't rely on her sibling all the time.
 
Again though you are looking at this from a very logical, detached position and not the one Buffy was looking from.

Sure if you stand back and look at the series you would come to the conclusion that Buffy would have been sensible to have Dawn, and her mum for that matter, fully trained up and ready to fight for their lives if necessary.

But Joss doesn't write shows about super logical heroes, he writes shows about regular flawed people who happen to stumble on powerful destinies. Buffy made the choice a regular person would have made in her place because that is what she was when she was sat at home combing her sister's hair, just a regular girl dealing with a regular home life.

This thread isn't about whether she made the right choice to protect Dawn in this way or not, it's about whether her choice was hypocritical in comparison to her choices with her friends. What I'm trying to point out is that you can't compare the two. If you stop thinking of Buffy the Vampire Slayer and think of Buffy the person for a minute you will see what I mean.
 
Once again you have misconstrued Buffy's feelings.

A regular flawed person would have not sacrificed herself or Angel for the fate of the world. Because I know that most people wouldn't have the courage to stick a sword through their lover.

Buffy is a true hero who grasps the knowledge that one must do whatever possible to ensure ultimate safety.

Remember her talk to Giles in Season 7 about how if she had to do it all over again she would sacrifice Dawn if it were for the greater good?

Though while she may have been all about Dawn's safety in Season 5 and 6, it just seems out of character for the girl who would risk everything to save the world.

And the only difference between Buffy the Vampire Slayer and Buffy the Sibling is the timing.

If Buffy and Dawn were to run across a group of demons and Buffy was in the midst of the battle and the world rested on her, would she turn back and save Dawn or fight for the world?

A hero is not a hero because he or she simply saves the world. A hero is a hero because he or she gives up the things that they love the most.

Dawn should have known how to protect herself long before Lessons. She should have been given proper training, a cross, holy water and whatever else would have helped her. But Buffy decided to keep her away from these things and in Sunnydale that's not reasonable.

While having ties to the world may have helped Buffy stay alive longer, it would have been better if she would have thrown Dawn off the tower.

Now I'm not mean or anti-Dawn, it is just the fact that we wouldn't have had the negative repercussions to this.
 
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