Hypocrite Buffy

I'm sorry but are you totally ignoring the point here or what? Okay, let's give this one more try ...

Everything you said there is just fine but in what way does it relate to anything that I've been trying to get across?

The question posed in this thread isn't about heroic sacrifice or whether Buffy would be willing to let Dawn die now, it's about whether she was hypocritical in making a choice to keep Dawn away from the fighting when she allowed Willow and Xander to join her.

I have tried to point out that this could not be described as hypocritical due to the fact that she was bound to feel differently about her sister than she was about her friends.

I've got absolutely no idea what you are trying to prove with your last argument in relation to that but well done for the effort!

Oh and one more small point, when it comes to the slayerverse, I "misconstrue" nothing! 😉
 
C
Cordelia
There is no need for condescending remarks.
Sorry. I do tend to get off-topic, but in a way, it does tie in with the current topic!

Regarding Dawn versus Xander/Willow situation:

Even though her feelings may be stronger for Dawn because of her sisterly relation, she still should have given her the training to protect herself.

And this may be the biggest deciding factor in why Xander and Willow were able to patrol at 15 and 16:

Because they had the right to choose it themselves.

Remember in the beginning of Buffy when she DID NOT want them anywhere near the action? But they told her to stuff it and that they were going to help.

Dawn was limited by Joyce and Buffy.

Buffy had no control over the actions of Willow and Xander.

Pagan said:
I have tried to point out that this could not be described as hypocritical due to the fact that she was bound to feel differently about her sister than she was about her friends.
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That is rather debatable.

Just because you feel this way doesn't mean the Slayer does.

While Buffy may be a sibling, she may not automatically have the instincts of your average Joe Older Brother.

Honestly I do not think that Willow and Xander should have been out on nightly patrols with her either.

But since Dawn was going to be around this stuff, why not give her the same experience as the rest of the Scoobs?
 
Well, technically Dawn was like 1 years old as Buffy humorously mentioned in season 6. But I guess the overprotectiveness that Buffy was enforcing upon Dawn was due to the fact that she not only had to assume the role of Dawn's sister but mother too. She didn't intend to be Dawn's official guardian but she was. That was a lot of responsibilty put upon her. She handled the situation the best way she knew how. Her choices weren't always the best but she tried with all her might and helped Dawn succeed in many aspects of life. Plus, I think it was awesome of Buffy(or the writers) to allow Dawn to freely grow and mature in season 7. Lessons being a examplary episode.
 
Well to be honest if you read an earlier post of mine you will see that you have just repeated points I made earlier that back up my argument.

Buffy absolutely did attempt to stop Willow and Xander from being involved to begin with but ultimately had no say in what they did. She couldn't order them to keep out of the way so she eventually accepted them being part of the team.

With Dawn she was in a totally different situation where this was her sister and she had a say. She could at least try to keep her away from the evil as much as possible, which is exactly what she did.

As for your second point about Buffy not neccessarily feeling the same way as the average older sibling, I think everything we saw in seasons five through seven showed that Buffy absolutely did have the same instincts and feelings as any older sister would, she proved that time and time again. Isn't that exactly where this debate began? That she treated her sister differently than her friends?
 
Blessed said:
Plus, I think it was awesome of Buffy(or the writers) to allow Dawn to freely grow and mature in season 7. Lessons being a examplary episode.
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Exactly...Dawn's character just flourished once she was given the chance to become a bigger part of Buffy's world. She proved to be a great asset to the team. And she was very obviously mature enough to make that decision for herself and not allow anyone to hold her back, even despite the attempt to drag her out of the final battle.
 
Personally, I don't think Buffy was being a hypocrite. Rather she was honoring her mother's wishes.

In the first episode that featured Dawn, 'Real Me', Dawn said to Buffy, 'I'm going to tell Mom you slayed in front of me' like it was a really bad thing. I think Joyce wanted Dawn kept away from the whole Slayer thing so at least one of her daughters could have a normal life. After she died and the care of Dawn fell to Buffy, she went overboard with it (as we have often seen Buffy do). At the end of season six Buffy decided to show Dawn the world and teach her to fight vampires so Dawn wouldn't be as clueless and lost as Buffy was when she first started.

Hypocrite? No. Overprotective? Certainly.
 
I've read all of your comments guys and I'll just get back to what I said before: Dawn was an immature brat. Yes, I hate the character, yes she annoys the hell out of me and yes, some may argue she's grown over the years (nevermind that her little speech in season 7 flushed those hopes down the toilet).
But fact is, especially in the beginning, she wasn't only getting in the way and causing trouble, she *was* the trouble. She was irresponsible and immature kid. Neither willow, nor Xander were, *and* they were older. Dawn, as a person, didn't inspire appreciation, Buffy couldn't possibly think of her as anything more than a kid sister she had to protect (and yes there is a great difference between your siblings and your friends, real life and jossverse alike). Dawn was incapable, she wasn't serious and strong-willed, she just whined and whined and then whined some more. I mean, would you honestly give a sword to a person like that? Maybe you should give her a crossbow, she could shoot Miss Kitty Fantastico sometime.

And Cordelia, he didn't say anything wrong and didn't offend anyone, so honestly, that's not exactly necessary.
 
Ok, here's my two cents 😀

Giles was the adult when Buffy first started slaying. In her younger years as a slayer Buffy was not the one with the responsibility. Sure she was capable of it but for knowledge and leadership that was Giles' stand point. Now Giles never took Willow and Xander off for self defense lessens. He taught the slayer how to fight but not her powerless friends.

Skip forward to Dawn.

Buffy is now the adult. Through years of field training Xander and Willow are perfectly capable of living in her demon mad world. Buffy, like Giles does not teach Dawn how to fight. Sure she's there for a little research help but Buffy takes her examples from Giles.
 
Cordelia said:
Exactly...Dawn's character just flourished once she was given the chance to become a bigger part of Buffy's world. She proved to be a great asset to the team. And she was very obviously mature enough to make that decision for herself and not allow anyone to hold her back, even despite the attempt to drag her out of the final battle.
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But yet again you are avoiding your own topics point here. What you are talking about above happened in season seven, by which time Dawn had matured, Glory was no longer an issue and Buffy was a lot more willing to let Dawn be a grown up. You originally tried to compare Buffy's decision about Dawn at 14 with her decision about Willow and Xander at 16, which is not a fair comparison.

By season seven Dawn actually was the age that Willow and Xander were when they first got involved in the slayage so therefore, if you really want to make your original comparison, Buffy wasn't being a hypocrite at all because by the time Dawn was 16 Buffy did allow her to make her own decisions with regard to demon slaying.

It is totally irrelevant to this discussion to mention what Buffy did in season seven when you first asked about what we thought of her choices in season five, two whole years earlier.

Wicca, Phoenix and Jules, great points and all nicely put! 😉
 
Actually you missed my point. My point was that Dawn did so much better for herself in Season 7 when Buffy finally let her in, hence that she would have done the same two years prior.

It was a comparison for the arguments sake.

Wicca said:
and cordelia, he didn't say anything wrong and didn't offend anyone, so honestly, that's not exactly necessary.
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I was offended as was another who expressed concern to me. As moderator, it is my job on this board to ensure that it is a nice place to come and discuss and debate the topics at hand.
 
Cordelia said:
I just watched "Real Me" the other day. Dawn is introduced as a character and she is said to be a 14 year old girl. Dawn is about the same exact age that Buffy was when she was called (she turned 17 in S2, was 15/16 when the show started, and around 14/15 when called).

Why does Buffy feel the need to protect Dawn so badly, yet she allowed her newly formed friends (Willow/Xander/Cordelia) who were in their young teens fight beside her and be exposed to death and slayage.... :banghead:
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Okay, the above is your complete original post which basically sets out the opinion and point we have been discussing, well at least I have anyway.

The argument you just gave in your last post bears absolutely no relevance to that original topic of debate whatsoever. There is nothing in there that concerns season seven at all, this was meant to be about Buffy's choices in season five.

The Dawn we saw in season seven was massively more mature and controlled then the little girl we met in Real Me. You can't possibly hope to argue that because Buffy saw that Dawn was ready in season seven to become more involved in the slayage then that means that it would also have been true two years earlier. Where is the sense in that?

The Dawn in Real Me was not ready to be a Scooby and anyone can see that to be the case. By the time of Lessons she was somebody Buffy could feel confident in training.

If you are going to keep changing the parameters of the debate then we are both wasting our time discussing this.
 
It's a waste of time debating this as I have my opinion, you have yours and we both believe we are correct. It's best in this case to agree to disagree and move past it.

I was making a comparison for the sake of the argument. Just because I used a comparison from Season 7, doesn't mean I'm going off topic from the issue at hand. If you can't understand that, then I am sorry 🙂
 
My opinion on this is that if placed in this situation, I would try like hell to protect my younger sister in any way necessary. One way of protecting a person is keeping them safe even when you just can't be around, and that takes self-defense training. So yes, if given the choice I would run like hell and fight FOR her, but what if I was beaten? The sword should also be placed in HER hand and she should know how to use it, because what would happen if I lost? Would that be her time to surrender to the evil forces? I think not.
 
C
Cordelia
[No message]
Fair enough, we may as well let this go.

I would still say though that using a comparison that doesn't relate to the original point is no different to going off topic.

What Buffy decided about Dawn whilst she was 14 and then what she decided when Dawn had turned 16 cannot be used in this debate as a balanced argument as Dawn had gone through two years of growing up in between those two choices Buffy had to make. Buffy obviously was able to reconsider what was now safe for Dawn to take part in.

And again, nothing about that has any relevance to what happened with Xander and Willow, the only comparison you originally made.

I'm not trying to say that you aren't entitled to your opinion too, of course you are. It's just that the opinion you are giving now in no way backs up the original thread topic and even if it did still doesn't make Buffy a hypocrite for what she decided when Dawn was still only 14.

But either way, I'm done now! 😉
 
I do think there are two questions floating around here:

1. Should Buffy have tried to protect Xander and Willow the same way she tried to protect Dawn from being exposed to slayer stuff? (And I would venture to say that she did do try to do that.)

and

2. Was Buffy right to shield Dawn from slayer stuff instead of preparing her in the event that she is drawn into the melee?
 
That's true and I feel I answered to both in my previous posts one way or the other.
1 is no - she did try to shelter them in the begining, to give her that much credit, but she didn't drag them into this, they kinda fell in and it was beyond her control. They *wanted* to stay. They were brave and good people who wanted to help and most importantly *could* help. They were the perfect companions for Buffy and Giles as slayer and watcher, and perfect best friends for Buffy, circumstances given.
2 is yes - because Dawn is Dawn and I doubt Dawn fans would appreciate me repeating what I said in my previous posts 😉
 
Buffy Summers said:
I do think there are two questions floating around here:

1. Should Buffy have tried to protect Xander and Willow the same way she tried to protect Dawn from being exposed to slayer stuff? (And I would venture to say that she did do try to do that.)

and

2. Was Buffy right to shield Dawn from slayer stuff instead of preparing her in the event that she is drawn into the melee?
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I'd say that was about right, the topic has now split into two different discussions.

On the first point, as you say, i do believe that Buffy, at least initially tried to keep Willow and Xander away from the danger. Certainly in WttH/The Harvest and The Witch there are specific references to her attempting to persuade them to leave the slayer stuff to her. I think after a while she just resigned herself to the fact that she couldn't stop them. They were her friends, they wanted to help her and she had no authority over them to order them not to.

With Dawn however she did have the authority. Being her older sister gave her that much. Between Buffy and Joyce they had all the authority they needed to keep Dawn out of danger, not to mention a moral obligation, and not just from the perspective of a caring mother and sister. Ultimately as we saw in season six, regardless of the fantasy elements, the show is set in the real world where things like social services exist. Dawn was a 14 year old girl when we met her. How would it have looked to her school teachers if she kept turning up aching and bruised to school because she had been training with Buffy the night before.

At 14 years old, regardless of the dangers of the world she lived in, Buffy did the right thing in keeping Dawn as far away from her world as possible. There is no way anyone could convince me that the Dawn we saw in the first half of season five was mature enough to deal with any of it anyway. Then as she got older, and more capable, Buffy allowed her to come further and further into the world of the slayer. I think that was the best possible decision she could have made as a big sister, slayer or not.
 
I think that Buffy was very hypocritical in shielding Dawn from all the slayer stuff. It's not like Dawn is some normal teenager, she needs to know how to protect herself from what goes bump in the night. Anyways, Buffy was only a year older when she was called and when Willow and Xander started helping her. Dawn is old enough for these things! And I think that it doesn't matter that Buffy is the older sister. She was protective of Willow and Xander and cares about them deeply, too. (more so than Dawn in my opinion) I also think that the only reason that Dawn was such a brat was because everyone treated her like a four year old.
 
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