I just watched the "Initiative" and really how can these people be in the business of hunting demons and vampires and not know who the Slayer is. You'd think that would be something they'd want to know and yet even though two members see her everyday they don't recognize her. I also wonder how the Watcher's Council feels about a bunch of college students and their professor trying to take over their centuries old job.
I am in awe of the Initiative's incompetence.
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Robb Stark
King in the North
The Initiative is without a doubt the most stunningly useless demon-hunters over the entire course of Buffy or Angel. I mean, Xander by himself gets the job done better.
I mean, the Watcher's Council is a total joke too, but compared to The Initiative they're freaking superstars. For a top secret government organization with seemingly limitless funding and access to state-of-the-art technology, it's pretty amazing how The Initiative pretty much botches everything they try to do, every step of the way (see: Spike, SO many times).
And yeah, by S4 Buffy has averted at least six apocalypse level events, including one where The Mayor of the entire city transformed himself into a sixty foot high snake-thing, and the very best The Initiative can do over that entire time is arrest an invisible girl who's running amok (great word) in the local high school? And heck, I think that might have even have been the FBI. So unless they're brand new by S4, yeah, they're just beyond incompetent.
And just wait. I don't want to spoil anything, but man...
I mean, the Watcher's Council is a total joke too, but compared to The Initiative they're freaking superstars. For a top secret government organization with seemingly limitless funding and access to state-of-the-art technology, it's pretty amazing how The Initiative pretty much botches everything they try to do, every step of the way (see: Spike, SO many times).
And yeah, by S4 Buffy has averted at least six apocalypse level events, including one where The Mayor of the entire city transformed himself into a sixty foot high snake-thing, and the very best The Initiative can do over that entire time is arrest an invisible girl who's running amok (great word) in the local high school? And heck, I think that might have even have been the FBI. So unless they're brand new by S4, yeah, they're just beyond incompetent.
And just wait. I don't want to spoil anything, but man...
The only thing they've manged to do so far is interrupt Spike's speech at the beginning of "Wild at Heart" which kind of annoyed me, because anything Spike says is gold and far more interesting than anything this bunch of losers has done.
JCoatsworth
UP THE IRONS!
I think the Initiative is the worst thing that happened to the series. It's the basic reason why season 4 is my least favorite season. I find the whole idea of that modern view of demons very strange. They act like they're animals or something.
But again, season 4 has its moments.
But again, season 4 has its moments.
Robb Stark
King in the North
Totally. I don't think there's a single "bad" season of Buffy, and S4 definitely has some strong points. But while I liked and was excited for the concept of the government getting involved with Sunnydale and the Hell Mouth (it fixed a gaping plot hole from the first three seasons), I don't think the overall idea was executed all that well. I mean, they were just freaking useless. They (and Riley. WAY too much Riley. To the Riley fans out there I'm sorry, but I couldn't stand him) were just always in the way, even when they were trying to help.
Spike is a perfect example. They put a freaking chip in his head to stop him from hurting people, yet they can't track him with it? Who came up with that plan? Spike, one vampire who can't hurt anyone, evades the might of the U.S. government by hiding in a few basements. That pretty much speaks for itself.
Useless.
EVIL UU
Scooby
- Joined
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The Initiative, surprise surprise, doesn't make sense.
They're not incompetent, they're suicidal up to the point of ruining believability. For instance, the council has some significant political pull ( Giles' visa, free to operate Slayer hunters and so on ) and yet The Initiative doesn't even know about The Slayer? Are you kidding me, that's preposterous. What happens after The Initiative is dealt with though is even more ridiculous. What would a rational government do with The Slayer in such circumstances?
a. Absolutely nothing
b. Throw money at her, provide her with resources, information, people and whatever the hell she needs because when shit hits the fan she's the cheapest insurance, not to mention that the next one may be called somewhere else so keeping this Slayer alive is pretty much national security.
Oh, let me think...
They're not incompetent, they're suicidal up to the point of ruining believability. For instance, the council has some significant political pull ( Giles' visa, free to operate Slayer hunters and so on ) and yet The Initiative doesn't even know about The Slayer? Are you kidding me, that's preposterous. What happens after The Initiative is dealt with though is even more ridiculous. What would a rational government do with The Slayer in such circumstances?
a. Absolutely nothing
b. Throw money at her, provide her with resources, information, people and whatever the hell she needs because when shit hits the fan she's the cheapest insurance, not to mention that the next one may be called somewhere else so keeping this Slayer alive is pretty much national security.
Oh, let me think...
I like it so far. I really like Willow's progression. Her talk with Parker was the only thing I actually enjoyed about "Beer Bad." I thought her breakup with Oz was really sad, but very well done. I liked how she was willing to help out Riley despite her own pain over Oz, though i don't like Riley all that much. I look forward to seeing where she goes relationship wise. I also like how she is developing spiritually, she mentioned going to a Wiccan initiation in one of the episodes. Though, that does raise one thing that slightly annoyed me. In the episode "Wild Hearts" where she almost curses Oz she calls on the Christian Satan. I just find it odd that a Wiccan would believe in or even invoke the Christian devil for her magic good or bad. It's just a minor nitpick though. Overall I really like where she is going.
I do have one big complaint about this season so far. There isn't enough Giles. He got a lot more screen time in the first 3 seasons and now he's in about 5-10 minutes an episode it seems. I really hope this isn't a trend. Giles is awesome, hell I would watch a Giles spin off show.
Robb Stark
King in the North
That's one of the drawbacks of seasons 4-7. Giles changes quite a bit, and he isn't in the series nearly as much, or at the very least, he's not nearly as important to it. Don't get me wrong, he still has his moments, but not like the first three seasons. The same kind of applies to Xander as well, especially past S4. They go in some different directions with different characters, and I think they just kind of ran out of things to do with Giles and Xander.
S
SlayerOfVampyrs
This. A lot.
white avenger
white avenger
The Initiative perfectly answered the question, "What happens when you take a (supposedly) elite military group with a virtually unlimited budget and access to ultra high tech equipment and weaponry, and put them under the command of a group of civilians who can't even accept the terms, "vampires," "demons," and "werewolves,' for the creatures who they are trying to study when they should have been looking for more affective ways to kill them?" History proves again and again that soldiers can only operate successfully when they are commanded and led by soldiers. Put civilians, especially civilians who have no concept of what soldiers do, such as politicians or scientists, in charge and you create a situation known lovingly by every soldier, sailor, marine, and airman in the U S military as "clusterf*ck" (I bet you thought that Eastwood just made that up on the spot, didn't you? Actually, it came from a place called Viet Nam in the early 1960's) Then, in the end, after the inevitable sh*t has hit the proverbial fan, the scientists/politicians always have the same solution. "Bury it. Cover it over with concrete. Pretend that it never happened, and if it can't be covered up effectively, find some scapegoats (obviously, the soldiers that they had kept from doing the job right in the first place) to blame everything on, and release so many conflicting stories about what supposedly happened that the truth about what REALLY happened is lost forever. All of this, of course, while swearing to God above that they had opposed it from even before it was first suggested and fought against it throughout its planning, initiation, and operation, and that now history will prove that they were right all along.
Of all of the things that Joss did with this series, or either of his others, his portrayal of the Initiative, its mission, its chain of command, its operation, and its ultimate demise, was probably the most spot on thing that he ever did.
Of all of the things that Joss did with this series, or either of his others, his portrayal of the Initiative, its mission, its chain of command, its operation, and its ultimate demise, was probably the most spot on thing that he ever did.
Ethan Reigns
Art imitates life here.
BuffyElevated
Scooby
I really think the whole idea of the Initiative was a stupid one to put into the Buffyverse. The whole season felt more like a thinly-veiled metaphor for "The government is bad! Fight The Man!".
Season 4 has its moments, but I really hate the whole anti-government subtext in the season. I felt like in a show of "vampires, demons, and the forces of darkness", it was out of place.
Season 4 has its moments, but I really hate the whole anti-government subtext in the season. I felt like in a show of "vampires, demons, and the forces of darkness", it was out of place.
I'm only on episode 8, but so far he is really really boring. How can someone who spends his nights hunting demons be so dull?
PassionBecoming
Minuscule Redheaded One
I didn't mind the idea of The Initiative, but I think it was badly played out. They tried to cram too much into too few episodes, so things got really sloppy.
Ethan Reigns
Scooby
Amen. I had a technician working for me once who told me a profound truth:
"Heirarchies exist for the edification of the top man in the heirarchy."
Finding out about the existence of a parallel organization (the slayer and the Watchers' Council) would not be welcome because it would take some of the power away. Also, their mission was to control demons and have them do some of their wetworks - never a safe prospect and one of the more unworthy pursuits of a government.
It's not even a metaphor, IMO. I have no illusions about the military and the incompetence of the average government but I still think The Initiative was nothing but a strawman. There is no reason why Buffy should be more effective than them - her superpowers aren't that super. I mean, they captured Spiek with incredible ease and a yet a few episodes later Buffy is beating up a whole bunches of those commandos. There is no reason why the government would allow Buffy and her pals to get away with breaking into the secret compound three times or after doing that wouldn't support Buffy in her efforts to, you know, save the world. Corrupt or not, I would imagine most politicians would rather the world not end. They send Riley to Nepal and Central America but leave no one to help Buffy in Sunnydale, the place where you need to know the plural of apocalypse? Yeah, right.
Of course, you can say much the same about the Watcher's Council or Giles's reluctance to even ask them for info, let alone other types of help. Frankly ,I really wish they hadnt introduced either of these organizations. A ragtag bunch of misfits saving the world is far more exciting when there aren't hugely powerful organizations who could and should help but don't bother because apparently they are fine with the world ending...
S
SlayerOfVampyrs
Spot on. Also, in regards to Buffy: Logically, no, there is no reason for what you mentioned, but the show has her with varying levels of power each episode, depending on what they need her doing/how they need her to appear. That always bugged me.
ILLYRIAN
Druish Pervonian Wizard
As a metaphor? Hmm.
How about having The Watchers Council being a metaphor for the church? They take it upon themselves to 'watch' over the slayer who is a person empowered with a power from ? (up there ?)
Or The Initiative, could they be a metaphor for humanity trying to get in on the situation? Yes, they were floored in so many ways, a bit like humanity.
But if the metaphor situation was true, what would the reaction of the church be to another organisation doing a similar thing as them? Ignore them, poke fun at them, god forbid the thought that they'd welcome them and teach them the right thing to do.
And that has nothing to do with Joss being an Atheist.
How about having The Watchers Council being a metaphor for the church? They take it upon themselves to 'watch' over the slayer who is a person empowered with a power from ? (up there ?)
Or The Initiative, could they be a metaphor for humanity trying to get in on the situation? Yes, they were floored in so many ways, a bit like humanity.
But if the metaphor situation was true, what would the reaction of the church be to another organisation doing a similar thing as them? Ignore them, poke fun at them, god forbid the thought that they'd welcome them and teach them the right thing to do.
And that has nothing to do with Joss being an Atheist.