I Am So Confused

He says it's all canon? That's bull. How did he put it? I mean, he can't be unaware that Season 8 is said to be canon too, yet there they both are, two series in the same verse, who can easily contradict each other. He can't think it's season 8/the shows-canon, can he?
 
He says it's all canon? That's bull. How did he put it? I mean, he can't be unaware that Season 8 is said to be canon too, yet there they both are, two series in the same verse, who can easily contradict each other. He can't think it's season 8/the shows-canon, can he?

Chris Ryall says:

"From the start, we've submitted everything to Fox and Mutant Enemy for approval. And when we get that approval, in my mind, that has always meant what we did was canon. I mean, it'd be folly for me to expect Joss to approve everything himself. But I also know that him getting involved more directly on After the Fall really got people to stand up and pay attention to a greater degree.

So when Willingham says Joss isn't involved in his book, he means he's writing them and submitting them for approval, but the story idea and script and dialogue come from him. When they come back approved, same as anything, that's canon to me. We're doing stories that pick up on elements following After the Fall, so short of Joss Exec-Producing our comic too, I don't really see how these are anything but canon.

Angel might be appearing in Buffy now, but I'll be damned if they can use without a full crossover taking place!

Joss once said "anything IDW does is canon." [jokingly]

But really, to give an actual answer, the creator of the shows/characters never taps anything with his scepter and deems it canon or not"”that's for others to determine. Joss is a storyteller, so if a story suits him, he tells it. He never came to us with After the Fall and said "I'm here to make your stories count." He said (and this is more of a real quote than the above) "I see in Brian Lynch someone who could actually work with me to tell the story of what happens after Season Five ended." But he also told Brian to "use the fish," a character Brian created in Spike: Asylum. So by the strange transitive property of canonization, that means Asylum and other stories with are also thusly canon, and since continues to be in Angel for Willingham's run, that to me makes it all part of the same whole, whether Joss plotted the story over pancakes with Brian or whether Willingham came up with it in the Minnesota hinterlands.

in my mind, him not voicing anything to the contrary is also important. When we get approval, when we're not told "don't do that, Joss doesn't approve of that," it works for me the same way as word saying "go do it."

So all I do, knowing that this is very important to fans of Angel, is do my damndest to be true to established canon and tell stories that extend what has come before. From there, whether you go by "Mutant Enemy approved it" or "Brian Lynch and Joss Whedon broke bread together" or whatever other possibility, that's up to the fans to decide.

In other words, yes, everything we're doing is canon."
 
I would call what he calls canon, fanon, but whatever floats his boat. I myself believe in Joss and his holy scepter. Because otherwise everything else IDW and Dark Horse and the fiction books that have been released are canon too, and those stories are sometimes contradicting the shows themselves. I of course assume Dark horse's books and the others books are approved the same way as the IDW run, so by that logic, they're all just as canon.
 
The Ferg
The Ferg
Well said.
This is why I haven't read the Angel comics yet. I just am beyond confused, lol.

Call me stubborn but I'm not going to waste my time reading a comic book that contradicts the show in such a way that it just gets ridiculous.

I wish it was easier to understand what's canon like with S8.
 
The Ferg
The Ferg
I agree. S8 is so much less confusing than AtF.
S
Skytteflickan88
Well, not all stories are contradicting. Angel After the fall has been declared canon by Joss, so I doubt he will mess with that, so that's safe to read. I could point you in the direction of other comics that aren't contradicting.
This is why I haven't read the Angel comics yet. I just am beyond confused, lol.

Call me stubborn but I'm not going to waste my time reading a comic book that contradicts the show in such a way that it just gets ridiculous.

I wish it was easier to understand what's canon like with S8.

If you want to see it like that:

S8 is canon. It lists Joss Whedon as executive producer so he has involvement in the story.

After The Fall (issues 1-17 and maybe 23) is canon, because Whedon plotted it. The rest is just IDW making some money with different writers. It doesn't have any Whedon-involvement. They're just using the characters.

The rest (I'm talking about the mini-series Spike: After The Fall as well as Spike: Asylum and Spike: Shadow Puppets) are give or take. S:ATF explains how Spike and Illyria got where they are in ATF. Spike: Asylum and Shadow Puppets are written by Brian Lynch (the guy who wrote Angel: After The Fall) and have one character in them that also appears in After The Fall but the canonity of these are debatable.
 
The Ferg
The Ferg
Betta George?!?
S
Skytteflickan88
There's also Beck, and maybe Bev, that reappears.
I have Spike AtF, and I think it's canon. Because it, in no way, contradicts anything else, and the writer and artist (Lynch-Urru) are the same as the other AtF. This is part of the reason why I just clicked buy on #23 on TFAW.com! 🙂
And for arguments sake, the Drusilla arc has the same artist/writer combination (with a little Landau thrown in 😛 ), but I'm honestly not to interested in Dru's next story, so there's my reason for not reading that.

I think now that I have Angel: AtF (all 4 hardcovers), Spike: AtF, and the epilogue I'm just gonna be done with Angel. It's hard enough following the rest of Whedon's comics.
 
The Ferg agrees: Betta George?!?

Yep, that one 😉

And for arguments sake, the Drusilla arc has the same artist/writer combination (with a little Landau thrown in 😛 ), but I'm honestly not to interested in Dru's next story, so there's my reason for not reading that.

Yes, but my point was, canon means that Whedon is involved or approved it or said, "Yep, this story is good. This is what happened, this is canon now".

And I THINK, but don't hold me at gunpoint for this, Whedon read the Spike comics and basically said, "You know what, Betta George's a cool character, I want to use him in After The Fall." If that means it retroactively also made what happened in the Spike mini-serieses canon or just the parts that involved George or not at all and Betta George first appeared in canon in ATF is up for debate. It's just something that I believe is worth knowing and everybody should judge for themselves because there really is no definite answer since yes, that character has its origins somewhere non-Whedon-related.


My opinion in general is, Brian Lynch is a good writer so I'll happily read anything he writes that interests me until he proves me wrong.
 
Yes, but my point was, canon means that Whedon is involved or approved it or said, "Yep, this story is good. This is what happened, this is canon now".

I know what you mean, I was just giving another reason why the epilogue is more canon (lol, more canon?) than others because it was the same artist/writer as AtF. It just gives me a reason to read it.

And I tend to agree that Lynch in a great writer, but I don't have the time, money, or brain space to hunt down the Angel comics that are only written by Lynch. 🙂
 
So, I really don't know if anyone cares, but I figure I should update this a lil' bit! 🙂

First of all, I am going to read the other collected issues in Hastings, and I'm especially looking forward to Only Human. By doing this I don't spend money on something that might suck, and I still get to read cool stories!
Angel HC #6: Last Angel in Hell:
Epilogue (Issue 23): I bought this one for $1 on a TFAW sale and I really liked it. Like other people have said, it pretty much reads like any other AtF(1-17) issue. The cliff hanger makes me wanna kill myself though 😛 I won't be buying Only Human, but I'll read it.
Drusilla: It was awesome! If there was a $1 Drusilla TPB I would totally get it! It read just like a First Night story.
Boys and Their Toys: I couldn't stand it. I guess I just can't deal with Angel when it "goes real." And by going real, I mean going TOO real. As in Comic-Con? Really? I'm sure it was written well, and etc etc, but I just couldn't deal with it. Plus I had a time limit (my mom getting a haircut 😛 )
Last Angel in Hell: No thank you. It was entertaining at first, but the tongue-in-cheek humor just got old fast. And once again, I was on a time limit 😛

Pretty much my plan from now on is just to read the HC's when they are released, and like I said, probably not buy them. Only Human is next! Then HC#7 and Spike: The Devil You Know when it's released.
I wouldn't mind reading Spike: Asylum, Spike: Shadow Puppets, or Angel: Long Night's Journey either.

And btw, what is Barbary Coast? I can't seem to find it on Wikipedia. Is it just an Angel special? Cause it's not in the Post-AtF storyline.
 
So, I really don't know if anyone cares, but I figure I should update this a lil' bit! 🙂

First of all, I am going to read the other collected issues in Hastings, and I'm especially looking forward to Only Human. By doing this I don't spend money on something that might suck, and I still get to read cool stories!
Angel HC #6: Last Angel in Hell:
Epilogue (Issue 23): I bought this one for $1 on a TFAW sale and I really liked it. Like other people have said, it pretty much reads like any other AtF(1-17) issue. The cliff hanger makes me wanna kill myself though 😛 I won't be buying Only Human, but I'll read it.
Drusilla: It was awesome! If there was a $1 Drusilla TPB I would totally get it! It read just like a First Night story.
Boys and Their Toys: I couldn't stand it. I guess I just can't deal with Angel when it "goes real." And by going real, I mean going TOO real. As in Comic-Con? Really? I'm sure it was written well, and etc etc, but I just couldn't deal with it. Plus I had a time limit (my mom getting a haircut 😛 )
Last Angel in Hell: No thank you. It was entertaining at first, but the tongue-in-cheek humor just got old fast. And once again, I was on a time limit 😛

Pretty much my plan from now on is just to read the HC's when they are released, and like I said, probably not buy them. Only Human is next! Then HC#7 and Spike: The Devil You Know when it's released.
I wouldn't mind reading Spike: Asylum, Spike: Shadow Puppets, or Angel: Long Night's Journey either.

And btw, what is Barbary Coast? I can't seem to find it on Wikipedia. Is it just an Angel special? Cause it's not in the Post-AtF storyline.
Barbary Coast takes place in San Francisco during Angel's first trip to America with his soul. It's surprisingly well-written, but I prefer stories involving the whole team. This is purely Angel since most of Angel Investigations won't be born for 100 years... 3-part series, 2 issues in.
 
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