I didn't think she really loved Spike until season 7. She seemed to have a mental block on the whole soul issue. He did some good things even without a soul but I think she was unable to let herself acknowledge any real emotion toward him until he had his soul. It was probably there, buried somewhere, but I think she would never have let it surface if he hadn't gotten his soul back.
I do think she loved people after Angel. I'm not sure about Riley-I think she could have loved him, had things not gone the way they did. I definitely think she loved Spike even though he didn't believe her. Angel was not only her first love, but also set apart by being absolutely forbidden. He was everything she wanted and couldn't have (and the same goes for her, where he's concerned) and I think that probably stays with a person forever.
Great post. I agree with everything you've said. Sure, she'll always love Angel, but she'll also always have Spike 'in her heart' as she tells Angel. I won't believe that Buffy would lie about loving someone. She never told Riley and he, in my opinion, deserved it. She loved Spike in the end. No question.
I always wondered about if she loved him or not. Then I saw this Joss quote a member had in her sig that said that Buffy had loved Spike in the scene in Chosen. I don't know if Joss meant 'love' or 'in love', or if it was a temporary 'I love you for doing this' or more permanent 'I really love you' thing.
But there was definitly some kind of love(unless the quote was wrong).
That Buffy's earlier in the show "Why does everyone think I'm still in love with Spike?' does suggest she loved him in season 6.
I think it could have been a misstake by whoever that wrote that line and that it was later overlooked by Joss. I mean come on, Buffy loving Spike, that's huge and shouldn't be mentioned in passing. I assume that whoever wrote it didn't consider the consequences of that line.
But it's canon now, wherther it was a well thought out line or not. It could have been Buffy kidding herself(maybe she said because she didn't want to admit she sleept with someone she didn't like) or a freudian slip(in case Buffy did love him in season 6), but it's there.
As solid a supporter of the Spuffy relationship as I am, I still wouldn't be surprised to find out that the original line was supposed to be, "Why does everyone STILL THINK I'm still in love with Spike?" rather than the way it was finally delivered, and the difference either wasn't noticed, or was noticed too late to change it. To me, the most important part of Buffy's love for Spike was that she, herself, never knew or was willing to it until it was too late. Her admission that "I'm not ready for you to not be here," her assurance to Spike that she was "with him" in sharing the greatest night in his life and the implication that she believed that there would be time after the final battle had been fought and won to discuss the implications of that night, along with her statement to Angel that Spike was "in her heart," and, finally, choosing Spike as her Champion instead of Angel seem, to me at least, to verify it.
Buffy's love life seems come with equal parts of both happiness and sadness. She loves Angel, but, because of his curse, they can never be together, so he leaves. She loves Riley, but because he believes that she will never "need" him, he leaves. She (arguably) loves Spike, eventually, but because of her unwillingness to admit it to her friends, then later, simple procrastination in recognizing her true feelings until too late, he leaves in, quite literally, a blaze of glory.
(Batsu shippers could even say that the pattern applies to their favorite ship, since Buffy's reluctance to any sort of real commitment is instrumental in Satsu leaving)
Skytteflickan88Well said. I'm not sure if Bussy choosing Spike over Angel in chosen was a proof of love tough, since it could be argued that she did it because of tactical reasons.
The whole second front thing was a bigger joke than the cookie dough metaphor. Buffy undoubtedly knew that putting Angel and Spike in close proximity would be like putting two pit bulldogs in the basement together. Whoever wound up surviving wouldn't be much good in the upcoming battle. (It would have been interesting, though, if she had left Angel in the basement and kept Spike upstairs with her. Just to keep the two vampires separate, you understand)
Sending Angel away and naming Spike as her Champion, then openly spending the next two nights in the basement with him were Buffy's final steps toward actually admitting her true feelings for Spike, and, even more importantly, telling everyone else in the house that, whether they liked it or not, it was her decision, and none of their business.
The whole second front thing was a bigger joke than the cookie dough metaphor. Buffy undoubtedly knew that putting Angel and Spike in close proximity would be like putting two pit bulldogs in the basement together. Whoever wound up surviving wouldn't be much good in the upcoming battle. (It would have been interesting, though, if she had left Angel in the basement and kept Spike upstairs with her. Just to keep the two vampires separate, you understand).
If there was going to be any way round that Buffy would have upstairs/downstairs, it would be Spike in the basement over Angel. Spike was in the basement quite a lot and I think everyone else in the house would have much rather been catching up with Angel than wondering why Spike was even in the house in the first place.
Angel would be upstairs 😉
And in answer to the OP question I wouldn't have her saying anything. Spike, to me at this point, doesn't deserve her to say anything.
If there was going to be any way round that Buffy would have upstairs/downstairs, it would be Spike in the basement over Angel. Spike was in the basement quite a lot and I think everyone else in the house would have much rather been catching up with Angel than wondering why Spike was even in the house in the first place.
Angel would be upstairs 😉
And in answer to the OP question I wouldn't have her saying anything. Spike, to me at this point, doesn't deserve her to say anything.
Well, if Spike were in the basement, technically, he would be UNDER Angel, but location wouldn't matter, just as long as Buffy was there with him. She caught up with Angel when she split Caleb. It would only be courteous for her to let the others "catch up" with him while she and Spike spent the night together in the basement.
And Spike deserved an answer as much as any other member of her team would be under the same circumstances. Answering him in Season 5 would have been simple reassurance and encouragement to a fellow soldier just before a battle, no different than if Giles had said that he was too old and useless to be of any help in the fight. Declarations of undying love weren't required. She could simply have said that she would never have trusted a monster to protect Dawn and her friends. She would only trust a friend and a hero to do that.
I think everyone else in the house would have much rather been catching up with Angel than wondering why Spike was even in the house in the first place.
Yes, he probably would. Following like a little lost puppy with no mind of his own is classic Spike! 😛
I kid, I kid!
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white avenger agrees: Except that that "little lost puppy" was better than the entire Scooby gang and all of the Potentials combined in any kind of fight.
I'm not really sure what you're saying here? He's a better fighter? Maybe, physically. But every single one of those potentials and every member of the Scooby Gang gave their all in that final fight and for the right reasons. I'd argue that you couldn't say the same for Spike. I don't necessarily believe that myself, but I think its easily argued.
white avengerExcept that that "little lost puppy" was better than the entire Scooby gang and all of the Potentials combined in any kind of fight.
Spike was the only one who stood by her unfailingly in the end. The rest voted her out of the house. He was the one she could trust most in the end (not including Angel, who I think she also would have trusted completely had she let him stay). Spike was always a bit of a lost puppy with his women, going back to his human days. I thought the combination of loyalty/intense emotion and an evil edge was a big part of what made him so interesting 🙂 As a human (lacking the evil edge) he wasn't nearly as much fun.
I'm not really sure what you're saying here? He's a better fighter? Maybe, physically. But every single one of those potentials and every member of the Scooby Gang gave their all in that final fight and for the right reasons. I'd argue that you couldn't say the same for Spike. I don't necessarily believe that myself, but I think its easily argued.
Are you suggesting that dieing in the service and defense of the woman he loved and saving the world in so doing is somehow a "wrong" reason to die? And as for every member of the Scooby Gang and all of the Potentials/Slayers "giving their all," the only ones who really did that were still there when the hellmouth collapsed. The survivors didn't give all. It's like the saying about the Viet Nam veterans. "All gave some. Some gave all." Spike, Anya, and some of the new Slayers gave all. The survivors only gave some.
I always wondered about if she loved him or not. Then I saw this Joss quote a member had in her sig that said that Buffy had loved Spike in the scene in Chosen.
I think it's pretty clear that Joss intended for her to mean romantic love. This scene wasn't intended to have the tone of say, family love. This isn't Buffy hugging Xander in say, "Seeing Red" and telling him she loves him in an obviously friendly way.
The imagery with their hands on fire was obviously supposed to be symbolic of the passion - this recurring theme of the fire - between them.
Here is Joss' quote from the 'Chosen" commentary I believe you're referring too:
"I thought this was a sort of romantic image, the two of them... it looks beautiful. I thought it was a nice comment on their relationship. But what I basically told [James and Sarah] was: "Play the romance. Be proud of him. Love him when you say you love him. Love her when you say she doesn't love you. Forget about the crumbling world. For that period of time, it doesn't exist. It's a cinematic trick, but it's a necessary emotional one."
It's still interesting to me how Bangels, considering this quote, can claim that Buffy did not love Spike. Joss said she did. He wrote it, it was his intention. At this point, it is no longer in the realm of personal interpretation - you can't argue with the writer. His intention is what should be taken into account. Always. He didn't say, "Buffy loved Spike like she loved Xander - like a close friend" he said she loved him.
I'm not trying to be an obnoxious, idealistic Spuffy fan who sees what she wants in the text, and all that jazz. The 'proof" - for lack of a better word - is in his words.
---------- Post added at 02:44 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:32 PM ----------
Yes, he probably would. Following like a little lost puppy with no mind of his own is classic Spike! 😛
I kid, I kid!
---------- Post added at 03:11 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:33 PM ----------
I'm not really sure what you're saying here? He's a better fighter? Maybe, physically. But every single one of those potentials and every member of the Scooby Gang gave their all in that final fight and for the right reasons. I'd argue that you couldn't say the same for Spike. I don't necessarily believe that myself, but I think its easily argued.
Do you really believe that Spike didn't give his all in the final fight? Or, you say you don't but others do? I'm curious how you or others could argue that. He died selflessly to save the world - without him, they wouldn't have gotten out alive, no argument. Their enhanced Slayer strength wasn't enough. The uber-vamps had them overpowered. It was the sunlight being channeled through Spike's burning body that dusted the uber-vamps and allowed for the Hellmouth to be destroyed, and as a result, for all to escape before it crumbled. I'm curious how much more he could have "given" in the final fight.
As for him being a better fighter - well, Buffy admits he is. He was simply the strongest physical fighter they had at that point.
---------- Post added at 02:51 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:44 PM ----------
As solid a supporter of the Spuffy relationship as I am, I still wouldn't be surprised to find out that the original line was supposed to be, "Why does everyone STILL THINK I'm still in love with Spike?" rather than the way it was finally delivered, and the difference either wasn't noticed, or was noticed too late to change it. To me, the most important part of Buffy's love for Spike was that she, herself, never knew or was willing to it until it was too late. Her admission that "I'm not ready for you to not be here," her assurance to Spike that she was "with him" in sharing the greatest night in his life and the implication that she believed that there would be time after the final battle had been fought and won to discuss the implications of that night, along with her statement to Angel that Spike was "in her heart," and, finally, choosing Spike as her Champion instead of Angel seem, to me at least, to verify it.
Buffy's love life seems come with equal parts of both happiness and sadness. She loves Angel, but, because of his curse, they can never be together, so he leaves. She loves Riley, but because he believes that she will never "need" him, he leaves. She (arguably) loves Spike, eventually, but because of her unwillingness to admit it to her friends, then later, simple procrastination in recognizing her true feelings until too late, he leaves in, quite literally, a blaze of glory.
(Batsu shippers could even say that the pattern applies to their favorite ship, since Buffy's reluctance to any sort of real commitment is instrumental in Satsu leaving)
Again, not to be redundant, but I agree. My friend, we just seem to think the same regarding this. 😉
Her actions have always spoken louder than her words. Spuffy is about subtlety. We didn't need her to say she loved him in S7 - it was obvious by the way she treated him; constantly saving him, putting him before her other loved ones, and the examples you mentioned.
In regard to the point I chose in bold: I too think this is the beauty of Spuffy. This is what was so sad about them. Isn't that how it always is, though? You never realize what you have until it's gone.
And yes, Buffy's love life will never have a "happy ending", in my opinion. A hero always ends up alone. This is how it's always been. Our contemporary heroes serve a purpose for us; they inspire us to be better people, but they're also our identifiers to our own imperfect humanity. They reflect an idealized version of us.
---------- Post added at 02:56 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:51 PM ----------
Yes, very true, but some fans dismiss this loyal action on his part because it's "expected" of him at the time, considering his past loyalty to her. His status as Buffy's "lapdog" and "puppy" (both terms I have heard regarding Spike) suggest that this action was somehow lacking in importance because it was "what was expected" of Spike. So, his defense of her and subsequent finding of her is often dismissed, which never makes sense to me.
Are you suggesting that dieing in the service and defense of the woman he loved and saving the world in so doing is somehow a "wrong" reason to die? And as for every member of the Scooby Gang and all of the Potentials/Slayers "giving their all," the only ones who really did that were still there when the hellmouth collapsed. The survivors didn't give all. It's like the saying about the Viet Nam veterans. "All gave some. Some gave all." Spike, Anya, and some of the new Slayers gave all. The survivors only gave some.
Well, I don't know about your Vietnam analogy, but I agree with the general drift of what you're saying.
Yet, I believe Xander was willing to give his all - he just couldn't. I'd like to give him the benefit of the doubt and say he would have been willing to die if he thought it could have made any difference. Willow sure gave her all. After all, without her, they wouldn't have been able to beat back the uber-vamps enough to allow Spike to channel the light that killed them all. Giles? Not sure about him. Honestly, though I would have been very upset if Giles had died in the final battle. Buffy would have been devastated. Like James said, "
He'd probably willingly die for her. He'd be okay with that." It's as simple as that. The others had so much to live for. They didn't want to die, and rightly so. What did Spike have to live for? He'd already lived a lifetime and more, "...seen things [she] couldn't imagine", I'm sure he was fine with dying for her and in service of saving the world. I think we underestimate the vampires love of life. Do you know what it must be like to watch the people you love grow old and die around you, and stay forever young? Spike lived for Buffy. She was his hero, his life. He made her mission his. He fell fully into and embraced his new role as her confidant, her ally, her shoulder to lean on, her lover, her friend - whatever she wanted him to be, he was always there for her. So, when she gave him that amulet she was asking him to put his life on the line for her mission and he consented - she didn't give that to him because there was no one else to give it too - she gave it to him because she knew he was strong enough to handle it.
Oops, I think I'm getting off-topic again *slaps herself* Bad Becky.
And yes, I do get what you're saying about "giving all." I guess that does imply death. Yet, I don't want to discount the others intentions only because they didn't die.
white avengerI'm in no way discounting the bravery of anyone involved. Merely pointing out that the willingness to "give all," and actually doing so are destinctly different.
Joss Whedon receives 2009 Outstanding Lifetime Achievement Award in Cultural Humanism from the Humanist Chaplaincy at Harvard University and the Harvard Secular Society. Whedon is introduced and then gives a speech followed by a lengthy question and answer session.
Did say that B/A is like Romeo & Juliet, a 'kiddie romance'. "'Twilight', if you will." Did also say, rather flippantly, in answer to a question that no one actually asked, but that he must get asked a lot, "She loves Spike, or maybe Satsu, I'm not sure sometimes."
Are you suggesting that dieing in the service and defense of the woman he loved and saving the world in so doing is somehow a "wrong" reason to die? And as for every member of the Scooby Gang and all of the Potentials/Slayers "giving their all," the only ones who really did that were still there when the hellmouth collapsed. The survivors didn't give all. It's like the saying about the Viet Nam veterans. "All gave some. Some gave all." Spike, Anya, and some of the new Slayers gave all. The survivors only gave some.
Nope, I'm not suggesting that all. I said I don't necessarily believe that myself. I have stated in other threads that I belive this was Spike's FIRST action that he did more than Buffy's approval, however I've also seen others say otherwise. I'll have to see if I can find a thread but I think even someone who I presume is a 'Spuffy' has said that Spike solely did this because of his love Buffy and that it may not be AS selfless as doing it to save the world.
And just because the others didn't die doesn't mean they didn't give there all, and I don't think the reference to a real life war is very fair either.
It's still interesting to me how Bangels, considering this quote, can claim that Buffy did not love Spike. Joss said she did. He wrote it, it was his intention. At this point, it is no longer in the realm of personal interpretation - you can't argue with the writer. His intention is what should be taken into account. Always. He didn't say, "Buffy loved Spike like she loved Xander - like a close friend" he said she loved him.
Oh yes, you can. Roland Barthes developed a groundbreaking piece of theory called the Death of the Author, which refers to the fact that an author, never has and never will do, alive or dead have the final say on their work. In layman's terms, once they are dead and not able to say what they meant then it's completely open to interpretation but that it shouldn't just be until they are deceased that readers take what they want or feel from their work. Joss has his own interpretation of his work, and I have mine. I don't have to accept everything that Joss says. He's a good enough writer to mean this doesn't have to happen, hence we all have this extensive discussions about it.
I'll have to see if I can find a thread but I think even someone who I presume is a 'Spuffy' has said that Spike solely did this because of his love Buffy and that it may not be AS selfless as doing it to save the world.
The Chosen battle it was Buffy's battle. Spike offered to leave previously, but Buffy didn't let him. He stayed for her, he went into the cave to support her, he clearly did not believe that Buffy loved him, so what better else to do than die as a champion and leave Buffy a good memory of him saving the world?
In AtS S5, Spike finally choose his battles (because is the right thing to do)
And yes, Spike died for Buffy as her champion and saving the world. Buffy also died for Dawn and saving the world. Nothing wrong with that, making the ultimate sacrifice for the person you love.
Joss has his own interpretation of his work, and I have mine.
First off, there's a difference between bias and interpretation. The lady in question has formed her views through research and observation, not stubborn hardheadedness.
Her views may differ from yours or mine, but she is still entitled to them.
Secondly, if the reference to a real war versus Buffy's fictional one seems somehow unfair, let me rephrase. Everyone who went into the high school that morning was, we assume, WILLING to give their all. Total commitment, however, doesn't mean total sacrifice. The Secret Service personnel who guard President Obama are certainly WILLING to give their all, but the only one who actually would would be the one who actually takes the bullet intended for the President.
Thirdly, as far as arguing with the actual writer's interpretation of what the individual characters' feelings and interpretations, of course we can, and quite often do. Buffy and all of her friends (and enemies) are alive to us, not the property of one individual writer. We see them evolve and change, and we think of them almost as personal acquaintances, or even friends. The mere fact that we see them differently just adds to the fun of thers discussions. How long would we keep coming here if EVERYBODY agreed on EVERYTHING? What kind of fun would that be?
FlannenSorry, I see what you mean now :) and I agree, if we all agreed on everything we'd get very bored here!
First off, there's a difference between bias and interpretation. The lady in question has formed her views through research and observation, not stubborn hardheadedness.
Her views may differ from yours or mine, but she is still entitled to them.
Sorry, probably I'm very thick, but to say that Buffy didn't love Spike in Chosen because Spike said she didn't and deliberately choose to ignore several Joss statements that Buffy loves Spike...either I see no difference between bias and interpretation for this particular bangel fan either I need more dictionaries and translated texts. From my POV, the situation repeats in "Awakening" dream sequence (the curse already kicked in, Angel being in pain when calling Buffy's name vs. he remembered Buffy and then loses his soul) I mean, please, be a little objective, the shows were also outside the bangel verse.
Sorry, probably I'm very thick, but to say that Buffy didn't love Spike in Chosen because Spike said she didn't and deliberately choose to ignore several Joss statements that Buffy loves Spike...either I see no difference between bias and interpretation for this particular bangel fan either I need more dictionaries and translated texts. From my POV, the situation repeats in "Awakening" dream sequence (the curse already kicked in, Angel being in pain when calling Buffy's name vs. he remembered Buffy and then loses his soul) I mean, please, be a little objective, the shows were also outside the bangel verse.
ubi4soft, you can talk to me you know, you don't have to refer to me as 'this particular Bangel fan'. 🙂
Aren't we all a little biased anyway? Isn't that WHY we have favourite and 'ships? Because we lean more towards one than the other?
And personally I consider interpreting the text in my own way and not completely accepting everything that Joss says as objective. I don't choose to ignore Joss' statements but I don't accept them all as gospel. Joss says so many different things about every aspect of his shows because it keeps all of us guessing.
And just because my opinion differs from yours doesn't mean I'm biased. I don't think you're biased just because you think otherwise and agree with Joss.
And like I've said many a time, I don't think that Buffy didn't love Spike. I just don't see it as particularly romantic, or him being the love of her life because it doesn't emulate my ideals about love and therefore I struggle to relate to it. I guess I'm just a conventional gal 🙂
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