I love Season 5

[J Digory]

Hey, there. I'm new here. In fact, I have never joined a Buffy or Angel fansite before, but for some reason this site just seemed so cool, I couldn't resist.

Well now. I just wanted to get it off my chest that overall, I love this season far more than any other season of Angel. The development of the characters, the twist the whole show took. All of it was so good. Yeah, it had it's goofy episodes, but except for the lame one that had a fake Buffy in it, I liked all the silly episodes.

Well, I'm probably not as hardcore as some of the others here....but here I am. And there is my opinion.

 

[VisionGuy]

I agree that season 5 was very good but I think that it was kinda lagging in the first few episodes. Like they were trying to still find a way to make the atmosphere work. With Cordelia, Connor and the Hyperion Hotel gone, the show went thru very big changes. Especially when the AI's base of operations was Wolfram and Hart. I think that season 5 made it big when they brought in Lindsey and had Angel and Spike fighting for the Shanshu. It got really really good starting with You're Welcome.

 

[The Arcane]

Yep, chalk me up as a big season five fan as well.

Of course, being a massive fan of Spike probably influences that a great deal, lol, but even putting Spike's arrival aside i still think that season five had a hell of a lot of great episodes. Probably my second favourite season of the series.

 

[galathea]

I have to say that S5 is my least favourite AtS season. As a loyal Angel viewer I kinda felt betrayed when they tried to bent Angel into BtVS light to attract the Buffy viewers. I loved the story arc, the darkness, the premises of the show and didn't take it well when they tried to make 180 degree turn.

We loose 3 of my favourite characters, Cordelia, Connor and Lilah and they are substituted through very weak ones ... Spike, Harmony and Eve. S4 still had atmosphere in spades, S5 lacked any real Angel feeling for most of the season. While the W&H sets were neat, they couldn't replace the fantastic film-noir settings of the Hyperion. Angel running around in suits and bright daylight didn't fit either. Also I'd rather have AI fighting with each other because they are close friends, able to hurt each other because of that closeness, than have them distanced in different bureaus, acting as if they are only casual acquaintances.

Some other problems for me are: Lindseys return .. completely wasted. The ruined his whole character development from S2 for a simple surprise effect. I hated his arc and for me they destroyed a great character there. S5 also denied Cordelia and Connor a full redemption story in the eyes of the viewer after they were shamelessly misused and violated in S4. The show never felt the same again when Cordy was gone.

But mainly my complaint goes into the direction of losing the premise of the show when they moved on to W&H. I get the *Can we keep our ideals when we make that deal* metaphor clearly and loud, but the answer already was clear from the beginning. To me Angel was always about redemption and the saving of souls:

"žIt's about reaching out to people, showing them that there's love and hope still left in the world. It's not about saving lives; it's about saving souls. Hey, possibly your own in the process." (Doyle, City of ...)

"žWe're not running a race - we're doing a job - one soul at a time" (Wesley, Judgment)

"žThere's no grand plan, no big win. If there is no great glorious end to all this, if - nothing we do matters, - then all that matters is what we do. 'cause that's all there is. What we do, now, today. All I wanna do is help. I wanna help because - I don't think people should suffer, as they do. Because, if there is no bigger meaning, then the smallest act of kindness - is the greatest thing in the world." (Angel, Epiphany)

Moving in to W&H and start making deals with demon clans and only working towards the infamous *bigger picture* somehow diminishes what they achieved in the early years. It's not that I didn't enjoy a lot of S5 but it only started to feel like AtS in the last couple of episodes.

What I liked best about that season is the closure it brought to a lot of loose ends of the show. You're Welcome and Origin are among my favourite episodes ever. I also liked the *Angel loosing his faith in his destiny* plotline and the final strike at the SP. Not Fade Away has to be among the best series finals ever.

 

[Angel's vision]

I liked Season five but i have to agree they needn't of got rid of the hyperion hotel i missed that film noir feel to the show plus i did not like the buffy feel to it either, Angel going around making demon clans stop fighting by going through a conference meeting please!


They could of had him do more ground work instead and had him in conflict more over the conference table verses going out in the streets like he used to do.
They had a hint of it in conviction, where he was fighting w&h over his methods he was using before he got there.

The Plymouth Belvedere GTX(1967) was also gone why!!!

 

[Schillaci]

I have to say that S5 is my least favourite AtS season. As a loyal Angel viewer I kinda felt betrayed when they tried to bent Angel into BtVS light to attract the Buffy viewers. I loved the story arc, the darkness, the premises of the show and didn't take it well when they tried to make 180 degree turn.

We loose 3 of my favourite characters, Cordelia, Connor and Lilah and they are substituted through very weak ones ... Spike, Harmony and Eve. S4 still had atmosphere in spades, S5 lacked any real Angel feeling for most of the season. While the W&H sets were neat, they couldn't replace the fantastic film-noir settings of the Hyperion. Angel running around in suits and bright daylight didn't fit either. Also I'd rather have AI fighting with each other because they are close friends, able to hurt each other because of that closeness, than have them distanced in different bureaus, acting as if they are only casual acquaintances.

Some other problems for me are: Lindseys return .. completely wasted. The ruined his whole character development from S2 for a simple surprise effect. I hated his arc and for me they destroyed a great character there. S5 also denied Cordelia and Connor a full redemption story in the eyes of the viewer after they were shamelessly misused and violated in S4. The show never felt the same again when Cordy was gone.

But mainly my complaint goes into the direction of losing the premise of the show when they moved on to W&H. I get the *Can we keep our ideals when we make that deal* metaphor clearly and loud, but the answer already was clear from the beginning. To me Angel was always about redemption and the saving of souls:

"žIt's about reaching out to people, showing them that there's love and hope still left in the world. It's not about saving lives; it's about saving souls. Hey, possibly your own in the process." (Doyle, City of ...)

"žWe're not running a race - we're doing a job - one soul at a time" (Wesley, Judgment)

"žThere's no grand plan, no big win. If there is no great glorious end to all this, if - nothing we do matters, - then all that matters is what we do. 'cause that's all there is. What we do, now, today. All I wanna do is help. I wanna help because - I don't think people should suffer, as they do. Because, if there is no bigger meaning, then the smallest act of kindness - is the greatest thing in the world." (Angel, Epiphany)

Moving in to W&H and start making deals with demon clans and only working towards the infamous *bigger picture* somehow diminishes what they achieved in the early years. It's not that I didn't enjoy a lot of S5 but it only started to feel like AtS in the last couple of episodes.

What I liked best about that season is the closure it brought to a lot of loose ends of the show. You're Welcome and Origin are among my favourite episodes ever. I also liked the *Angel loosing his faith in his destiny* plotline and the final strike at the SP. Not Fade Away has to be among the best series finals ever.

I agree about Lindsey. His storyline was pointless, and such a waste. I don't have issue with Angel going to Wolfram and Hart, because honestly, were I Joss, I would have taken Angel there too. I thought it was the natural progression of his story. As for it going against what Angel had previously stood for, well, isn't that the point?

Angel's epithany in season 2, is that life has no meaning. There is no point to anything. He can't make amends in the eyes of some greater power that is shaping existence because there is no greater power directing the universe. He dictates what his life is. Only he can find peace for what he done as Angelus, within himself. No one can tell him, hey, you've equaled the score, now heres a cookie, go live a normal life. Working at W&H showed him this, losing Cordy and Fred, and Illyria opened his eyes fully. Which is why he signed away some stupid prophecy. No force can tell Angel he has done his time, now go live a normal live. There is no normal life, only that there is life, and you must live it the way you see fit...

Ugh, I know I had some point, but I uh forgot. Oh here some sabre action!:lsvader:

 

[galathea]

I don't have issue with Angel going to Wolfram and Hart, because honestly, were I Joss, I would have taken Angel there too. I thought it was the natural progression of his story. As for it going against what Angel had previously stood for, well, isn't that the point?

I don't see going to W&H as a natural progression. Angel had to be emotionally blackmailed into that position. If it hadn't been for Connor and Cordelia nothing in the world could have made him take that deal with his arch enemy. And even if it was the point, I still don't have to like it 😉 especially if this point is obvious even after Home but I still have to sit through it a whole season.

Angel's epithany in season 2, is that life has no meaning. There is no point to anything. He can't make amends in the eyes of some greater power that is shaping existence because there is no greater power directing the universe. He dictates what his life is. Only he can find peace for what he done as Angelus, within himself. No one can tell him, hey, you've equaled the score, now heres a cookie, go live a normal life. Working at W&H showed him this, losing Cordy and Fred, and Illyria opened his eyes fully. Which is why he signed away some stupid prophecy. No force can tell Angel he has done his time, now go live a normal live. There is no normal life, only that there is life, and you must live it the way you see fit

While I basically agree with you in the point that Angel has to find peace within himself, I'd say that Angel was far from achieving that and W&H didn't help in that matter. By aligning himself with everything he detetested in the world he even hated himself more. IMO signing away the prophecy was about demonstrating that he was rather willing to live in damnation forever than let evil own him.

 

[Kimm]

I agree about season 5 being one of the best. I really really enjoyed this season a lot. I think the addition of Spike was really great. I did feel a huge sense of loss with Cordy being gone though.

 

[Schillaci]

I don't see going to W&H as a natural progression.

I meant thematically, from going from this tiny office space in season1 and ending up at the grand building of W&H. Each season Angels fight became bigger. His little firm becomes pretty successful. His fight each season is on a bigger scale. Honestly, from season2 onward I expected Angel and crew to end up at W&H.

Angel had to be emotionally blackmailed into that position. If it hadn't been for Connor and Cordelia nothing in the world could have made him take that deal with his arch enemy. And even if it was the point, I still don't have to like it 😉 especially if this point is obvious even after Home but I still have to sit through it a whole season.

The problem with season 5 is the problem of wolfram & hart. Its too obvious, predictable. The only thinking left to the viewer is which member of the group will succumb to the desire for power, over their own personal moral values.

While I basically agree with you in the point that Angel has to find peace within himself, I'd say that Angel was far from achieving that and W&H didn't help in that matter. By aligning himself with everything he detetested in the world he even hated himself more. IMO signing away the prophecy was about demonstrating that he was rather willing to live in damnation forever than let evil own him.

But W&H did matter. OK, when Angel has his epithany. He realises that nothing matters. So all that matters is what you do. W&H show him, that he doesn't matter. Saving one soul at a time doesn't matter. He never has mattered. Saving one twit, eh soul, at a time is inconsequential next to destroying thousands, millions. When Angel is lecturing the group about power, I believe him. When I said about Angel finding peace within himself, he never will. What I mean is, he knows peace doesn't come from some other being, he also knows he never will be at peace with himself. How could he be? His very nature as a vampire defies that. His history.

blah blah... I have no idea what I'm talking about.

Pass me tha drugz.
So I called up the Captain
Please bring me my wine
He said
We haven't had that spirit here since 1969

 

[galathea]

Saving one soul at a time doesn't matter. He never has mattered. Saving one twit, eh soul, at a time is inconsequential next to destroying thousands, millions.

I don't think Angel ever believed that. In the end it is every single soul that is saved that matters. "Fighting evil is what makes humans so remarkably strong" In the end he found back to that believe. If W&H wanted to show Angel that he never mattered they certainly had a strange way of showing him that. Ever since they are competing over him with the PTB, Angel knows that he matters to them, they threw it in his face whenever they could.

When Angel is lecturing the group about power, I believe him.

I don't believe him a second. It was a farce to make the others believe he found a new purpose. But even Wes looked through that farce. "Angel was never about power. He chose this fight because he wanted and not because he had to." If Angel wanted power he would have joined the CotBT and go through with it, but he didn't.

When I said about Angel finding peace within himself, he never will. What I mean is, he knows peace doesn't come from some other being, he also knows he never will be at peace with himself. How could he be? His very nature as a vampire defies that. His history.

That's why the Shanshu was so important to him. I still think he needed somebody to forgive him. Since his victims couldn't and he obviously can't forgive himself a higher power is all that's left. To Shanshu means to be forgiven and start a second chance as a human. That's what peace meant to him.

 

[Schillaci]

I don't think Angel ever believed that. In the end it is every single soul that is saved that matters. "Fighting evil is what makes humans so remarkably strong" In the end he found back to that believe.

Angel says that to Lindsey. Lindsey his enemy. When he is figuring out what to do with Lindsey. About half a day before he tells his only friends that mankind is weak, humans are weak.

If W&H wanted to show Angel that he never mattered they certainly had a strange way of showing him that. Ever since they are competing over him with the PTB, Angel knows that he matters to them, they threw it in his face whenever they could.

You completely misunderstand what I am saying. Angel is nothing. He has nothing. He is important to the senior partners? Yes, as each member of the black thorn is important to the senior partners. Together they are part of a great machine. Alone they are just useless objects. Without point, without meaning.

I don't believe him a second. It was a farce to make the others believe he found a new purpose. But even Wes looked through that farce. "Angel was never about power. He chose this fight because he wanted and not because he had to." If Angel wanted power he would have joined the CotBT and go through with it, but he didn't.

Thats not what I'm saying. Of course Angel doesn't want power. What he says about power, he believes. When Angel says "an ant with the best intentions or the most diabolical schemes is just exactly an ant", he is being honest. What he says is true. He believes it so completely. It matters not that he is lying to convince the Back thorn that he has turned. He is lying with the truth.

That's why the Shanshu was so important to him. I still think he needed somebody to forgive him. Since his victims couldn't and he obviously can't forgive himself a higher power is all that's left. To Shanshu means to be forgiven and start a second chance as a human. That's what peace meant to him.

I don't. I sincerely hope Angel doesnt want that. Thats a cop out. Perhaps when Angel first moved to LA he wanted someone to forgive him, but he grew, he came to understand so much more about life, about himself.

 

[Croft Storm]

I can't express how much I love season 5 of Angel. I liked the first 4 so much that I didn't think it possible to like a show better. But then along comes season 5, and wham. It knocks the others off my chart.

Sorry about all the disagrees I couldn't help but make on this thread. I think the main problem people seem to have is that the scale of thing is so much bigger. But I think it was a very respectable move from the show and made a great final season. If shows don't move upwards, they lose it. Just look at just about every long running sci-fi show, they mostly get worse. If a show doesn't start answering questions and completing circles, they lose their charm.

 

[postmortem]

Except for the fake Buffy and Cordy's return, I liked the final season.