I never believed Willow was gay

[prophecygrrl]

I question it only because Joss said she was "pretty much bisexual" in one article, and that the writers had planned to put Willow with a man after Tara's death. Only because of the negative backlash and calls of the writers being homophobic did they decide "Okay, okay, Willow is definitely gay now" and put her with Kennedy.

If that had never been said, that the writers saw Willow as bisexual, then I wouldn't even question it. But because of the way they were going until season 7/Tara's death, it just let's me ponder a little.

Was there evidence of Willow being bisexual or pansexual while she was with Tara? I mean, she was attracted to men before- Xander, Oz, whatever, but a lot of people who discover their sexual identity later go through that. I don't believe there was any suggestion that she liked men after she met Tara in season 4.

 

[Deus Ex Machina]

I wouldn't hold that particular moment as an argument against Willow being gay. That was a spell to attract women in particular, no matter how uninterested they would normally be.

But if we're only counting one aspect to prove her gayness (Willow saying she'd turn RJ into a woman), why can't we use the entire thing (Willow being attracted to him and until it was brought up she was gay did she think to turn him into a woman)?

It's much like how people drag VampWillow into the mix to prove Willow was gay. VampWillow wasn't gay, she was bisexual, but a lot of people go "Well see, VampWillow was gay and that whole conversation between Willow, Buffy and Angel proves that Willow was gay too", but as you can see it doesn't.

Was there evidence of Willow being bisexual or pansexual while she was with Tara? I mean, she was attracted to men before- Xander, Oz, whatever, but a lot of people who discover their sexual identity later go through that. I don't believe there was any suggestion that she liked men after she met Tara in season 4.

If we're counting her attraction to Warren's robot girlfriend, do we then count Giles and Dracula?

 

[PrincessBuffy16]

zobothehobo agrees: When was Willow attracted to Giles?

Didn't she say few times that he's handsome, when he was singing and playing guitar?

 

[Gotham]

I would have subscribed to the "one woman not women" belief, but then Kennedy happened. She's gay, they couldn't make it more clearer.

All this being said I do love watching things where people feel such an intense love for someone else to the point where gender doesn't play a role. I mean you have characters like Ennis Del Mar and Craig Dean (I know that one probably went over most of your heads 😉), people who chased after women without a hint of being confused sexually, until they meet someone of the same sex who provoke such intense feelings within them. It really is fascinating.

 

[wickedwill]

zobothehobo agrees: When was Willow attracted to Giles?

On 'Where The Wild Things Are', Willow herself admitted she had a crush on Giles in the past.

If you look at all the hints, I think willow comes out as bisexual (at least at this phase of her life..), but I agree that you should give her credits when she identifies herself as a lesbian.

 

[zobothehobo]

Didn't she say few times that he's handsome, when he was singing and playing guitar?

That's ridiculous. I say guys are handsome all the time! Gay, not blind! Finding someone attractive and being attracted to them are very different things. I find my former friend Kyle attractive. Would I ever have sex with him in a million years? No. Am I attracted to him? No.

 

[PrincessBuffy16]

That's ridiculous. I say guys are handsome all the time! Gay, not blind! Finding someone attractive and being attracted to them are very different things. I find my former friend Kyle attractive. Would I ever have sex with him in a million years? No. Am I attracted to him? No.

Willow never expressed her true feelings about that so we won't ever know what was she thinking or wanting..

 

[wickedwill]

Willow never expressed her true feelings about that so we won't ever know what was she thinking or wanting..

She actually said she used to have a crush on him. It's very clear to me that she was fascinated by Giles, especially at the very beginning, .. a juvenile crush I'd say

 

[InsaneMystic]

It's much like how people drag VampWillow into the mix to prove Willow was gay. VampWillow wasn't gay, she was bisexual, but a lot of people go "Well see, VampWillow was gay and that whole conversation between Willow, Buffy and Angel proves that Willow was gay too", but as you can see it doesn't.

I agree to that. The Doppelgangland scene is proof that Willow isn't, and never was, exclusively straight, but not that she's exclusively gay.

Still, I don't have any problem seeing Will as gay. She says she is, and I don't see the problem in the concept that while she used to be attracted to guys in the past, her ship with Tara showed her that she likes women a lot more, and has no interest to go back to "driving stick" again, especially as she rushes to go using magic to work around the problem with RJ's physical presence, which she likely wouldn't consider doing if she saw herself as bi.

Then again, I admit that I'm biased. Penises are yucky, so I prefer the woman I crush on gay over bi. (Straight, of course, is right out!) 😀

 

[Professor Walsh]

As for Willow and Giles, she definitely had a crush on him in the early seasons.

The whole lesbian/bisexual thingy is kinda tricky, because how do you accurately portray someone as bisexual without making the person into a serial monogamist? If Whedon had let the sparks fly between Willow and {enter your preferred male here} in S7, her relationship with Tara would have been discounted as "just a phase" by a lot of viewers, something that in my opinion would have devalued the relationship greatly. To have Willow changing lovers rapidly would a) not be in character and b) cementing the idea that being bisexual equals being less-than-reliable. To have her wavering between a bloke and a lass would a) take up too much space to be done well in S7 and b) be a rehash of Oz' return to Sunnydale. Personally, I suppose I consider her more bisexual than lesbian, but that's not for me to decide.

 

[Deus Ex Machina]

I just want to make this clear: I do accept Willow as gay, I just like debating this and it is my personal wish that Willow had been bisexual. I do know that what goes on behind the scenes with the writers cannot be truly counted because it wasn't put on the screen. I do not mean to offend or anything, I just think it's an interesting debate and it does sadden me that true bisexual characters are rarely presented on television.

she rushes to go using magic to work around the problem with RJ's physical presence, which she likely wouldn't consider doing if she saw herself as bi

But didn't she only want to turn him so the other girls wouldn't want him? After Anya pointed out she was gay, Willow then knew that took the other girls out of the competition because she's been with a woman? Was Kennedy around at this point, it would've been interesting to see her reaction.

They only didn't jump to a male in S7 because they were afraid to be called homophobic or exploiting the Tillow relationship for ratings (which, to me, it didn't seem like they were doing that at all). Willow can have another relationship with a woman after Tara and still be bisexual (like Callie from Grey's Anatomy), so it bugs me when Whedon says:

Following protests angry about the death of Tara, Whedon and the writing team made a decision to keep Willow gay. In 2002, he told The Advocate about the possibility of Willow having a relationship with a man, "We do that now, and we will be burned alive. And possibly justifiably. We can't have Willow say, 'Oh, cured now, I can go back to cock!' Willow is not going to be straddling that particular fence. She will just be gay."[30]

So to me it seems like they had her say "Gay now" for no reason other than laughs, but that she was (ugh) "straddling a fence" up until S7. Willow also could've dated a man and not have been "cured", they could've had like, 2 minutes dedicated to Willow explaining "Hey, I just like people, and while I loved Tara with all my heart and miss her every day, right now, this person catches my eye, but it doesn't take away what I had with Tara." But because the writers couldn't A.) Think outside the box or B.) Keep Willow focused on her recovery, we got Kennedy.

 

[Goby]

I just want to make this clear: I do accept Willow as gay, I just like debating this and it is my personal wish that Willow had been bisexual. I do know that what goes on behind the scenes with the writers cannot be truly counted because it wasn't put on the screen. I do not mean to offend or anything, I just think it's an interesting debate and it does sadden me that true bisexual characters are rarely presented on television.



But didn't she only want to turn him so the other girls wouldn't want him? After Anya pointed out she was gay, Willow then knew that took the other girls out of the competition because she's been with a woman? Was Kennedy around at this point, it would've been interesting to see her reaction.

They only didn't jump to a male in S7 because they were afraid to be called homophobic or exploiting the Tillow relationship for ratings (which, to me, it didn't seem like they were doing that at all). Willow can have another relationship with a woman after Tara and still be bisexual (like Callie from Grey's Anatomy), so it bugs me when Whedon says:



So to me it seems like they had her say "Gay now" for no reason other than laughs, but that she was (ugh) "straddling a fence" up until S7. Willow also could've dated a man and not have been "cured", they could've had like, 2 minutes dedicated to Willow explaining "Hey, I just like people, and while I loved Tara with all my heart and miss her every day, right now, this person catches my eye, but it doesn't take away what I had with Tara." But because the writers couldn't A.) Think outside the box or B.) Keep Willow focused on her recovery, we got Kennedy.

I think that's the problem.... KENNEDY!!

I think that was a terrible move, one of the few big mistakes in BtVS. But I do agree with Joss.

My 9 year old son was first "exposed" to homosexuality this year at a Buddhist retreat. I live in a very small rural town and there are no openly gay couples. I think Tillow exposed my son and America to a loving gay relationship that didn't involved "hot naked lesbian sex." I do agree that making her "straight again" would have been wrong.

But I still think she was bi. 😉

 

[wickedwill]

But didn't she only want to turn him so the other girls wouldn't want him? After Anya pointed out she was gay, Willow then knew that took the other girls out of the competition because she's been with a woman?

I don't think so. Then why did she say "I can work around it (the penis)"?

 

[Deus Ex Machina]

I think that's the problem.... KENNEDY!!

I think that was a terrible move, one of the few big mistakes in BtVS. But I do agree with Joss.

My 9 year old son was first "exposed" to homosexuality this year at a Buddhist retreat. I live in a very small rural town and there are no openly gay couples. I think Tillow exposed my son and America to a loving gay relationship that didn't involved "hot naked lesbian sex." I do agree that making her "straight again" would have been wrong.

But I still think she was bi. 😉

Well, I don't think pairing her with a man would've made her "straight again". Did you mean like, she should never be with a man or with a man later if they did do the bisexual story?

---------- Post added at 12:33 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:32 PM ----------

I don't think so. Then why did she say "I can work around it (the penis)"?

Hmm, I will review this scene again 😀

 

[Goby]

Well, I don't think pairing her with a man would've made her "straight again". Did you mean like, she should never be with a man or with a man later if they did do the bisexual story?

---------- Post added at 12:33 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:32 PM ----------



Hmm, I will review this scene again 😀

Looking at the very big picture, not just the Buffyverse, I think it would have been a step back socially. I think Joss did something very important and that is needed in this country. He showed two wonderful people who were in love, who just happened to be two women. There was nothing perverse or sinful about it. It was certainly not an "abomination" (unlike the "sin" of Buffy and Parker).

It is ridiculous in the US how we hate gays. I live in a very rural, right-wing county. I've seen pictures of kids with guns before they can walk. Where I live homosexuals are deviants and sickos, and go against the word of God. They will burn in hell. It's all very sad.

Tillow was so beautiful. I think Willow being with a man would have somehow sent the message that her lesbian "fling" was "wrong." Of course I believe that she could have been with a wonderful guy after Tara died; someone like Xander or Oz, who truly appreciated and loved her (like I do - hehehe).

 

[AustCF]

According to the show though, she WAS a gay woman. So... I do see her as gay. Remember in the season 7 episode (i think its called "him") when Willow sees RJ in the jacket and she becomes obsessed with him and Buffy says "your a gay woman!....and he's not...."

So yeah, she was gay. At least according to the show, thats what they wanted her to be. Now if you mean you just don't "feel" her as being gay, that's a whole different thing.

 

[MissEH]

In my opinion, (not to disregard other opinions of course) Kennedy and Willows relationship should never have come to fruition.
It seemed as though the relationship with Willow and Tara was such a milestone, the writers possibly thought they could pull it off a second time by slapping a second relationship in there, but doing it a tad differently.
Willow and Tara were a great love story, a realisation you have feelings for another woman, it was slow, it was sweet and it was magical.
Willow and Kennedy was completely different, you had a brash teenager who had a crush, pursued relentlessly, was an obnoxious pain in the arse while trying to get it.
My point, I don't think Willow was 'gay' in season 4 I'd say she was 'bisexual' but as the show developed and her relationship matured and she as a person matured, she discovered who she was and was in fact a gay woman these are just my thoughts on the matter.

 

[zobothehobo]

Here... I hope this helps people. We're all a bit bisexual. Every one of us. There are two guys in the whole world I would have sex with but I would have sex with two guys. And sometimes I think guys are REALLY hot and if the penis wasn't so nasty... like I'd kiss them and stuff... but I would NEVER want to see their penis. But sometimes I see a guy and I just want to kiss him. We're all a bit bisexual. Sexuality is NOT a black and white thing and that's ok. Willow says she's gay and she "became gay in the writers eyes" in season 7 so she's gay now since the show is over. Kennedy made her gay not bi and that's what happened. The show is over... so to me the argument the writers saw her as bi until season 7 doesn't really work. Sure they did, that's fine, they told a story and didn't know where the character would end up. That's one of my favorite things about TV... the writers don't know where the characters will end up... and fans can influence that. So they made Willow GAY in season 7. So she's gay. And I ask again, why is this so hard to believe?

 

[BuffyThoughts]

Maybe I'm oversimplifying the issue, but I never saw Willow and Tara being together as a gay vs straight issue. What I saw was two basically lonely people who shared some common interests falling in love. Oh, yeah, and they were both women.

Willow herself said, "It wasn't women. It was one woman. Tara." That pretty much sums up what I saw and believed. Tara could have ben Tom, or Steve, and if the two PEOPLE had connected in the same way, the same love would have been there just the same.

That's primarily why I could never see anything between Willow and Kennedy. They didn't have very much, if anything, in common, and they just didn't CONNECT the way that either Willow and Tara or Willow Oz did.

I have a question. Could you apply this same line of thinking to Buffy and Satsu? Or how about Buffy and Faith, a ship many people believe in? See Buffynfaith.net.

On my soap box a bit ... I don't have any problem with sexuality being fluid. I don't see why a person shouldn't hook up with people of both genders. But I guess that puts me in the doghouse on both sides of the cultural divide.

 

[Abby27]

Hmm.

Well, first of all, I think the fact that Willow is a women is playing into it. I don't know if this is cross-cultural thing, so maybe only North American's will get this, but women's sexualities are see on more of a continuous scale, while men's are seen as more categorical. And of course, I am speaking in generalities. For instance, it is usually more accepted that a women is bisexual than a man being bisexual, in that case a lot of people assume if he is attracted to men, he must be gay - which of course isn't fair. So, I think because we are dealing with a character that was written in this sort of culture of sexuality, there is more of a push to say she is not exclusively gay, or that she is bisexual. Honestly, just because she dated Oz and loved him, doesn't mean behind the scenes she wasn't finding that women turned her on. We'll never know. I do think though that if we were discussing Xander who dated a woman, and then identified as a gay male and dated a man, we would be able to accept that more readily and not try to say he wasn't gay.

My overall point is that I think a variable playing into this is that women's sexuality aren't seen as categorical so it's easier to believe that women are bisexual than strictly gay or straight. Which, I am straight, but I would imagine this would frustrate the lesbian/gay fanbase: Just let her be gay and don't perpetuate this stereotype that women can go back and forth.

What we do know is that just because Willow had a satisfying sexual relationship with a man at one point, this should not negate the idea of her being a strictly homosexual female. Maybe she just needed to time to figure out it out.

Also, I forgot who said it, but whoever brought up the point that there is difference between finding someone attractive and being attracted to them, kudos! I've had conversations with someone who I guess would identify with being bisexual (he's attracted to both men and women but only finds engaging in intimacy with women appealing) and this point was brought up a lot. I don't understand how he can be attracted to both and he doesn't understand how I can find women attractive but at the same time not be attracted to them.