I never believed Willow was gay

[zobothehobo]

Hmm.

Well, first of all, I think the fact that Willow is a women is playing into it. I don't know if this is cross-cultural thing, so maybe only North American's will get this, but women's sexualities are see on more of a continuous scale, while men's are seen as more categorical. And of course, I am speaking in generalities. For instance, it is usually more accepted that a women is bisexual than a man being bisexual, in that case a lot of people assume if he is attracted to men, he must be gay - which of course isn't fair. So, I think because we are dealing with a character that was written in this sort of culture of sexuality, there is more of a push to say she is not exclusively gay, or that she is bisexual. Honestly, just because she dated Oz and loved him, doesn't mean behind the scenes she wasn't finding that women turned her on. We'll never know. I do think though that if we were discussing Xander who dated a woman, and then identified as a gay male and dated a man, we would be able to accept that more readily and not try to say he wasn't gay.

My overall point is that I think a variable playing into this is that women's sexuality aren't seen as categorical so it's easier to believe that women are bisexual than strictly gay or straight. Which, I am straight, but I would imagine this would frustrate the lesbian/gay fanbase: Just let her be gay and don't perpetuate this stereotype that women can go back and forth.

What we do know is that just because Willow had a satisfying sexual relationship with a man at one point, this should not negate the idea of her being a strictly homosexual female. Maybe she just needed to time to figure out it out.

Also, I forgot who said it, but whoever brought up the point that there is difference between finding someone attractive and being attracted to them, kudos! I've had conversations with someone who I guess would identify with being bisexual (he's attracted to both men and women but only finds engaging in intimacy with women appealing) and this point was brought up a lot. I don't understand how he can be attracted to both and he doesn't understand how I can find women attractive but at the same time not be attracted to them.

I hit enter too soon. it's something that's been important in my life.

 

[VisionGirl]

I guess the Oz and Xander thing is the sticky point for a lot of people. Listen, I am not gay and don't pretend to understand what it's like for a gay person to make that decision to come out. And I do agree with Zoe that sexuality is probably more fluid than we think; I also think that it might be more fluid for some people than others. I guess sometimes I get a little confused because some gay people say that they "knew" they were gay from a very young age; that they found themselves attracted to people of the same gender young. But then obviously from what other people say that there can be an initial sexual attraction to the opposite gender, followed by a realization that they are indeed attracted to the same gender. So my question is, are those initial opposite sex relationships real? What I mean is, is there true sexual attraction there, or are those relationships formed more because of societal expectations? Just from observation, it sure seemed like Willow was indeed truly attracted to Oz and Xander. If there is true sexual attraction, then would that person more likely be bi? Can someone change their sexuality like that? From what I'm reading from Zobo & others, the answer for some people might be yes.

Also, what I find interesting culturally in the U.S. is that BTVS was on air at the same time as Anne Heche's relationship with Ellen Degeneres. For some reason in my mind those things are linked lol, and I always wondered about Anne Heche's sexuality, since it seemed that before & after her relationship with Ellen she had only been with men (publicly of course, I have no idea what her private relationships are like). So is Heche bi, was it an "experiment" on her part, or was gender just not a big issue? So when Twillow happened, it seemed oddly familiar to me. Anyway, that's probably just me, I'm sure it didn't hit anybody else like that lol.

I know I'm rambling, but I am usually in the camp of "if someone says they're X, then they are" (like the question "is it accurate to refer to Obama as black & not biracial/multiethnic etc?"). But it is interesting to discuss this, and I learn a lot from others' responses & experiences.

---------- Post added 01-18-2011 at 12:00 AM ---------- Previous post was 01-17-2011 at 11:56 PM ----------

Oh, again rambling, but I wanted to say that the real proof of Whedon's progressivsm (is that a word?) on this issue is the day he had an openly gay male character & male gay relationship. It didn't happen in season 8 like we were maybe hoping to see, especially given that he pretty much has free reign in that medium. I'm in the middle of watching Firefly & I haven't seen it yet, although that would've been a great environment for that as well. Did it occur in Dollhouse (haven't seen it yet)? At least he didn't treat Twillow as "just hot girl on girl action", although I honestly feel that I'm seeing a little bit of that with Inara in Firefly.

 

[prophecygrrl]

I've been thinking about it and I think with Willow there was a chance to make a statement about bi/pansexuality in a world where both are very stigmatized (what iwth unfair beliefs that bisexuals just can't "pick a team", or they're all unreliable or whatever), but on the other hand, considering the circumstances of Tara's death, I still don't think establishing her as bi or pan would be the right decision. On a meta-level, given that very many people viewed Tara's death as a "punishment" for homosexuality (given that magic is linked to exploring sexuality in the Buffyverse and a myriad of other sexual/gay metaphors and themes), having Willow be with a man might send the wrong message, regardless of her true sexual identity. And having her not be with anyone at all would risk falling into the "gay person is forever alone after partner's death" trope. I definitely think sexuality can be fluid (LOL, mine certainly is 🙄), but maybe with Willow it just wouldn't fit during that place and time in the story.

On a semi-related note, I see a LOT of the Buffyverse characters as a bit sexually fluid. Maybe it's just my love of slash, but I see it for Xander, Giles (c'mon, there's total hatesex chemistry with Ethan 😉), Buffy, Spike, and Angel. And a bunch of others I'm probably forgetting, lol.

And agreed with VisionGirl about having an openly gay male character and the Inara thing. C'mon, Joss. 😛

 

[VisionGirl]

I've been thinking about it and I think with Willow there was a chance to make a statement about bi/pansexuality in a world where both are very stigmatized (what iwth unfair beliefs that bisexuals just can't "pick a team", or they're all unreliable or whatever), but on the other hand, considering the circumstances of Tara's death, I still don't think establishing her as bi or pan would be the right decision. On a meta-level, given that very many people viewed Tara's death as a "punishment" for homosexuality (given that magic is linked to exploring sexuality in the Buffyverse and a myriad of other sexual/gay metaphors and themes), having Willow be with a man might send the wrong message, regardless of her true sexual identity. And having her not be with anyone at all would risk falling into the "gay person is forever alone after partner's death" trope. I definitely think sexuality can be fluid (LOL, mine certainly is 🙄), but maybe with Willow it just wouldn't fit during that place and time in the story.

On a semi-related note, I see a LOT of the Buffyverse characters as a bit sexually fluid. Maybe it's just my love of slash, but I see it for Xander, Giles (c'mon, there's total hatesex chemistry with Ethan 😉), Buffy, Spike, and Angel. And a bunch of others I'm probably forgetting, lol.

And agreed with VisionGirl about having an openly gay male character and the Inara thing. C'mon, Joss. 😛

I completely agree with this entire post! I think that people seeing Tara's death as a punishment is unfortunate. I can see the logic, although I don't think that was Joss' intention at all. Too bad it happened that way at all.

Re Inara: I don't think her taking on female clients is any big deal, it really makes sense, but the crew's reaction to it (especially considering that this is sci-fi, it occurs in the future, and so you would assume society has evolved) was OTT & annoying. Although it did give us that funny Jayne quote: "I'll be in my bunk".

 

[zobothehobo]

I guess the Oz and Xander thing is the sticky point for a lot of people. Listen, I am not gay and don't pretend to understand what it's like for a gay person to make that decision to come out. And I do agree with Zoe that sexuality is probably more fluid than we think; I also think that it might be more fluid for some people than others. I guess sometimes I get a little confused because some gay people say that they "knew" they were gay from a very young age; that they found themselves attracted to people of the same gender young. But then obviously from what other people say that there can be an initial sexual attraction to the opposite gender, followed by a realization that they are indeed attracted to the same gender. So my question is, are those initial opposite sex relationships real? What I mean is, is there true sexual attraction there, or are those relationships formed more because of societal expectations? Just from observation, it sure seemed like Willow was indeed truly attracted to Oz and Xander. If there is true sexual attraction, then would that person more likely be bi? Can someone change their sexuality like that? From what I'm reading from Zobo & others, the answer for some people might be yes.

This paragraph brings up some questions I'd like to answer with my personal experiences. Keep in mind when you read this post everyone is different. My story can and will most likely be very different from someone else's. Just because we're gay doesn't mean we're all the same... Coming out is a very personal process.

Coming out is a personal process. And it starts with coming out to yourself. It starts with figuring it out. Sexuality wasn't a big deal when I was growing up. I mean dad's first relationship after my mom was a guy (and I'm pretty sure that's the guy dad was cheating on my mom with). Then he dated a woman (and proposed to her, she turned him down... I think). Now he's "dating" a guy (dating is in quotes because my dad still hasn't formally introduced him as his boyfriend). When I came out to my father, he said "you know I'm bisexual... I like guys. Every now and again a woman comes around I'm attracted to but much less so then men. But I'm still attracted to both." That was the first time my dad ever formally came out to me. When he was in that relationship with a guy after my mom, they lived together and slept together and we knew they were in a relationship. We learned at school that meant he was gay but since we never had one of those big talks like "sweetie, your dad like other men" it really wasn't anything... I mean it wasn't a big deal in my family at all. Dad wasn't bi, he was dad. So because sexuality wasn't a big deal at all, I figured everyone was attracted to members of the same sex like I was. (I'm going to hate myself for this but...) Kennedy cited Gone With the Wind as for when she knew... she said she "saw that and just knew [she] wanted to sweep Scarlett off her feet." I saw a lot of movies when I was little and wanted to sweep the leading lady off her feet. But I thought everyone was like that. I would watch a kissing scene in a movie and I would watch the girl kissing the guy rather than the guy kissing the girl. I always thought he was getting the better end of the deal because her lips seemed more kissable. But I had no idea that not everyone thought like that. It took me a very long time to learn the difference between finding someone attractive and being attracted to them because society had told me since I was little I was attracted to men. But I wasn't, I only found them attractive. I came out as bi first, then as gay. Because I learned I was attracted to women, and then after embracing that, I learned I merely found guys attractive but wasn't attracted to them. I've also learned there are different ways to be in love.

Here is a venn diagram on the components of love:

And a chart that says the same thing, just a different view:

Now this is not to say I believe love can be charted, because I don't... but this explains it quite well. What Willow felt for Xander was friendship and infatuation. What they had, their brief time together, was romantic. What Willow felt for Oz was, in my opinion, companionship. What Willow had with Tara was true love. What Willow had with Kennedy was infatuation and a pushy bitch who took advantage of the fact she was no on her own for the first time after finding out she was gay.

Just because Willow didn't have "true love" or as the chart says it "consummate love" with Xander and Oz doesn't mean it wasn't real. And it's not just social expectations that changed those friendships into something more. I'll take you back to the sexuality is not black and white point and back into my personal life. There was a guy who I would have dated in a heartbeat. He would have dated me too if he wasn't so caught up in what his friends thought about me. He started to ask if we could have a "secret" relationship one summer but I stopped him and no. If I was going to commit, he was going to do it too. I look back and think "what if" all the time. If we would have dated, the love I would have had for him would be companionship. I knew he was attractive, but he was not one of the two guys I honestly feel I'm attracted to. (they are both famous and I've yet to actually meet either one haha). But I would have given him that companionship love and really loved him with all my heart. I might even have been able to *be* attracted to him. And to this day if he came to me and said he'd be willing to actually *be* in a relationship with me, I'd do it. And I'd probably even have sex with him... because I'd want to show him I love him in every way I can. But I'm not sexually attracted to him. THAT is what I believe Willow had with Oz and it was beautiful. But she's gay.

Sexuality, attraction, and love are complicated things. I hope my stories, charts, and diagrams have broken it down well.

---------- Post added at 02:40 AM ---------- Previous post was at 02:20 AM ----------

prophecygrrl agrees: Is one of those two guys a Mr. James Marsters?

You know it!!! 😀

Yeah, it's James and Russell Brand.

 

[prophecygrrl]

I agree that what Willow felt with Oz and Xander were real, just a different kind of love. I feel like the Xander thing was much more like a crush or an infatuation, and she definitely loved him as a friend. And I think she loved Oz in a first love, 'this guy loves me back, he makes me feel good and he'll always be a part of me' kinda way, but IMO, it really pales in comparison to what she had with Tara. That was some seriously powerful, real love.

 

[wickedwill]

What Willow felt for Xander was friendship and infatuation. What they had, their brief time together, was romantic. What Willow felt for Oz was, in my opinion, companionship. What Willow had with Tara was true love. What Willow had with Kennedy was infatuation and a pushy bitch who took advantage of the fact she was no on her own for the first time after finding out she was gay.

This is exactly how I see it, too

 

[Willow My Love]

I don't think sexuality is a line you cross. I don't think it matters who you're attracted to. Gay, Straight, Bi, they're all just labels. I think the only reason you're one or the other is because you've labeled yourself as such. I think we're all attracted to both genders. Just my opinion.

That being said, if Willow identified herself as being gay, we should take that at face value. That's how she sees herself, so she's gay.

I believe that Kennedy was nothing but a rebound and there was too much emphasis put on that relationship. I don't believe that Willow was ever in love with Kennedy. I think Kennedy was there and Willow was scared for the end of the world. But all that is beside the point of this conversation.

 

[Abby27]

Not to stray too far off the topic:

I agree with Willowmylove. There is so much emphasis putting a label on it and making sexuality some 3 category spectrum: gay, straight, or bisexual. And some people think bisexual are for those who haven't turned gay yet. Human sexuality is across a broad spectrum and are there are infinite possibilities for what you can be attracted to. The guy I talked about in my last post (he's attracted to both men and women but only finds intimacy with women appealing) identifies with being straight. And it's not because he's afraid of admitting the truth, he just doesn't find the idea of being with another guy attractive, the idea of being in a sexual relationship with a man does nothing for him so for all intents and purposes, he is "straight." Does that that mean he buries his attraction to men? No, of course not, he is still attracted to men, he just has no desire to act on it.

With regards to Willow, it's possible she was attracted to women long before it was ever on screen, and for all we know, she can be turned on and is attracted to men, but maybe the idea of having sex with a guy seems less attractive than having sex with a woman so she identifies with being gay. We don't know. I do think though that she herself said on several occasions that she was in fact gay and so whether that means she still into guys or not, the fact is, she likes women and says shes gay, so I think that just means she's gay.

 

[LadyLavinia]

What Willow felt for Oz was, in my opinion, companionship. What Willow had with Tara was true love. What Willow had with Kennedy was infatuation and a pushy bitch who took advantage of the fact she was no on her own for the first time after finding out she was gay.

I don't think that Willow saw Oz as mere companionship. I think she was truly in love with him. She took his departure very hard.

However, I think that before Kennedy; Willow used her relationships to personally feel good about herself. As if they were some kind of drug. This seemed especially true about Oz and Tara.

 

[zobothehobo]

I don't think that Willow saw Oz as mere companionship. I think she was truly in love with him. She took his departure very hard.

However, I think that before Kennedy; Willow used her relationships to personally feel good about herself. As if they were some kind of drug. This seemed especially true about Oz and Tara.

Re-read the last paragraph of my post. What Willow had with oz wasn't a mere companionship. It wasn't a mere anything. I described what I had with that guy and I loved him. I knew if we actually dated and broke up I would have taken it just as hard as Willow took her break up with Oz. Yes she was in love with him... but it wasn't the same kind of love.