I Think I've Got It.

[nerd4hire]

Let's assume the creation of slayers, and potential slayers is an ordered and pre-ordained natural process like childbirth.

One slayer is born into the world to guard the Hellmouth where ever it may be at that moment in time. Along with that Slayer a certain number of potential slayers are created to replace her if she falls.

Nothing, not even the first evil knows where these potential slayers are going to be created. Killing all the potential slayers would be a waste of time, because when there is one slayer, there will always be a fixed number of potential slayers to replace her.

When you have two slayers however the process gets confused. Potential slayers are not replaced if one should die. You can kill them all and you will be left with only two slayers.

At this point (if you are the First Evil) all you have to do is kill both slayers at once, and the line ends.

 

[Faldor]

when buffy died in season 1 she got replaced by kendra who was replaced by faith, but when buffy died in season 5 she didnt get replaced got she was supposed to be dead already.

 

[nerd4hire]

when buffy died in season 1 she got replaced by kendra who was replaced by faith, but when buffy died in season 5 she didnt get replaced got she was supposed to be dead already

True...what's your point?

 

[Leshy]

It doesn't have to kill Faith and Buffy at once, mainly because Buffy is not the current slayer in the line. She technically is an ex-Slayer who happens to be alive, unlike all the other ex-Slayers 😉

The current slayer is Faith - only she will get replaced if she dies, whereas Buffy doesn't. So the First Evil could easily kill Buffy without having to worry about her getting replaced by anyone 🙂

 

[nerd4hire]

I don't think I explained myself clearly.

The problem isn't with the replacement of slayers. The problem is with the replacement of potential slayers.

Right now there are two slayers (I've never heard of an ex-slayer. Which episode did you hear that term in).

Buffy calls herself THE slayer in CDWP. Giles calls her his slayer in OMWF. The council refer to her as the slayer in NLM.

There are two slayers, and because there are, the potential slayers cannot be replaced. If the First succeeds in killing off all the potential slayers at this point there will be no more potential slayers.

The FE doesn't want to kill Buffy or Faith at this point, because if it does the mechanism that creates potential slayers will become unplugged, and things will go back to normal. More potential slayers will be created.

 

[Leshy]

Originally posted by nerd4hire
Right now there are two slayers (I've never heard of an ex-slayer. Which episode did you hear that term in).

I pretty much figured that any Slayer turns into an ex-Slayer sooner or later. It's not an accepted term as such, I believe the common phrase for it is 'corpse' 😉

Buffy calls herself THE slayer in CDWP. Giles calls her his slayer in OMWF. The council refer to her as the slayer in NLM.

Seeing as she is still running around with her Slayer powers, and being the hero of the show obviously is the greatest Slayer, I'd say it's not that hard to accept that she is referred to as a Slayer. However, in the line of Slayers, she is not the current Slayer. She lost that position when she died in season one, after which Kendra was summoned. When Kendra died, Faith was summoned - the next slayer won't be summoned until Faith dies. Proof of this is that Buffy did in fact die a second time, and no new slayer was called.

As such, Buffy living or dying has no further influence of the line of Slayers or potential Slayers 🙂

 

[nerd4hire]

She is not THE slayer according to the technical reading of the terms that create slayers.

That's my point though. Those terms have been screwed up by the presence of two slayers on earth at the same time.

There's no proof even Faith would be replaced at this point, should she die.

True Faith replaced Kendra, but the distortion in the natural law only became so great that the First could act upon it in Season 7.

In Amends in season 3 the first wanted to kill Buffy right away. It had a different agenda.

 

[Leshy]

Originally posted by nerd4hire
There's no proof even Faith would be replaced at this point, should she die.

Then again, there's no proof that Faith would not be replaced if she died.

I think it's best to apply Occam's Razor to the situation and simply assume that the line of slayers remains unbroken, despite an ex-Slayer being alive rather than dead. The fact that nothing particular happened to the line of Slayers when Buffy died a second time seems to confirm this suspicion.

But then again, who knows what rabbit Joss will pull out of his hat 🙂

 

[nerd4hire]

Ockham's razor

Ockham's razor (also spelled Occam's razor, pronounced AHK-uhmz RAY-zuhr) is the idea that, in trying to understand something, getting unnecessary information out of the way is the fastest way to the truth or to the best explanation.

I think it's best to apply Occam's Razor to the situation

I agree. I think the "situation" is the theory I presented.

As such we don't need to discuss the theoritical existence of ex-slayers even though Buffy, Giles, and the council tell us Buffy is the slayer, and we know Faith is the slayer.

There are two slayers. I base this on what the characters of Buffy tell us. Giles and the Council are trained in Slayer lore. They tell us Buffy is a slayer. In This Year's Girl Buffy herself says there is more than one slayer when she is trying to figure out what to do with faith should they catch her;

Do we hand her over to the cops? They wouldn't know what to do with a Slayer even if they knew we existed

BalJox's eye tells Giles the problem was created when Buffy came back. Giles tells us the eye was "quite clear on that point".

My theory of how the natural order of slayers is distorted and nullified by the existence of two slayers at the same time explains how that could be

 

[Leshy]

Originally posted by nerd4hire
As such we don't need to discuss the theoritical existence of ex-slayers

I can assure you that in the Buffyverse, ex-Slayers are not at all theoretical 😉

There are two slayers.

If Buffy was the slayer, why wasn't a new one called when she died at the end of Season 5? Either there is only one current Slayer, or there are three.

BalJox's eye tells Giles the problem was created when Buffy came back.

No. The eye tells that the mystical forces around the Chosen have become altered in some way by the Slayer. That is open to several interpretations, especially as Buffy isn't named by the eye, and hints as to Faith's continued existence are made in this episode.

Applying Occam's Razor to the situation simply tells us that we shouldn't look for an intricate plot whereby Buffy's return has caused the line of the Slayers to go wonky. And we don't need to come up with an explanation of how next to the Slayer several possible Slayers-in-Waiting are chosen and what the criteria are for being chosen.

Seeing as there have been two Slayers around since the end of the first season - Buffy and Kendra, later Buffy and Faith, why would Buffy being alive now suddenly present an opportunity for the First Evil? And why did it take the First Evil a year to react? Buffy was resurrected by the start of Season Six, the eye speaks of recent events involving the Slayer.

 

[nerd4hire]

That's a lot of stuff to cover Leshy. I'll do my best.

You tell me you can assure me that in the Buffyverse, ex-Slayers are not at all theoretical. Can you do better than assure me? Can you prove it to me.

Can you show me where in the Buffy series an existing person with slayer powers connected to the slayer force is referred to as an "ex-Slayer"?

You ask me, "If Buffy was the slayer, why wasn't a new one called when she died at the end of Season 5?"

I'm not saying Buffy is the slayer following the technical line of assension as defined by the natural law of slayers.

My theory suggests the rules governing that line have been thrown out of wack. As such anything is possible. The rules no longer apply.

You tell me, "Either there is only one current Slayer, or there are three."

No. There are two. Kendra is dead.

You tell me what the eye said is open to several interpretations. This is true, but what Giles said is not. He made it clear that based on what Baljox's eye told him, he believed the problem was caused by Buffy coming back from the dead.

That was the purpose of my theory; to illustrate the possible mechanics of how Giles theory could work.

As far as your intrerpretation of Occam's Razor goes, if I understand it correctly you seem to be saying Occam is telling us any theoretical concept is wrong by the very nature of theorizing. If that is what Occam is telling us, he can get stuffed.

I don't think it is though. Basically all he seems to be saying is "keep it simple stupid".

So here's my theory put simply;

There are two slayers. The presence of two when there should only be one has caused a corruption in the natural order governing slayers.

One more;

why did it take the First Evil a year to react? Buffy was resurrected by the start of Season Six, the eye speaks of recent events involving the Slayer.

It didn't take the First a year to react. It took it 5 years. Buffy died the first time in season 1, then Kendra was called.

What you mean is why did it take the first so long react, correct? Simple--entropy is a gradual process. It took time for the natural rules of the slayer line to become corrupted to the point the first could act upon them.

BTW. Recent to an ancient being like the oracle is 5 years.

 

[Elvis]

nerd4hire, I think your missing the point with the ex slayers - there have been several,. An ex-slayer as Leshy said is a girl hat used to be a slayer but is no more, she is deceassed, demised she has passed on, she is no more, she has ceased to be, she has expired and gone to meet her maker! shes a stiff! berift of life she rests in peace, shes kicked the bucket! shes shuffelled off this mortal coil, she is an ex-slayer!

maybe I watch too much Monty Python, but I think I got the point across 🙂

 

[Razekiel]

Umh nerd4hire every expression used dont need to match Joss or any of the writers to be valid thats illogical, ex means former, someone that was, has been and is no more. And since Buffy is no longer "The Slayer" in technical terms, she is an ex-slayer despite to still being adressed as The Slayer(Probably since Faith is in Jail, went rogue, crazy, suicidal and murderous).

 

[nerd4hire]

An ex-slayer as Leshy said is a girl that used to be a slayer but is no more, she is deceassed, demised she has passed on, she is no more, she has ceased to be, she has expired and gone to meet her maker! shes a stiff! berift of life she rests in peace, shes kicked the bucket! shes shuffelled off this mortal coil, she is an ex-slayer!

Oh...Ok, I think I get it. You mean she's dead right...

Now let me tell you what a slayer is as defined by the Buffy series.

A slayer is a girl or woman connected to a source of slayer power that feeds her supernatural strength and abilities. She guards the hellmouth and protects humanity from supernatural threats. She has been chosen for this duty by an unknown power at least once in however many times she exists in this reality.

A slayer can also be a girl or woman, who follows the line of slayer succesion as defined by natural slayer law.

BTW I only have a problem with the term ex-slayer when you try to rerence it as an official term of the Buffy series, or tell me Buffy is an ex-slayer. The series tells me she is not an ex-slayer. She is the slayer. It tells me Faith is also the slayer.

In either case the girl or woman can be referred to as THE slayer, even when there are two of them.

 

[Allycat]

The fact that nothing particular happened to the line of Slayers when Buffy died a second time seems to confirm this suspicion.`

the Eye-thing: "the possibility has only recently presented itself"

So some of the recent events has triggered the First to come out and play, off course on an eternal life, recently is a quite long time.

Theory: what if the First at some point found out who the SITs were and saw that one of them could be corrupted (maby having to slayer caused the goodness in a Slayer's heart not to be 100% pure) and he first wants to make its move on her and then kill off the current Slayers, so that he holds power over the new Slayer!

 

[Gaunt]

slayers

I think everyone basically call Buffy The Slayer simply because they disregard Faith as a slayer even though technically she is. Buffy just kept the title.


And remember when buffy came back from the dead she wasn't quite right, tara had said something like she was only on a slightly different wavelength which is why spike could hit her. That might be significant you never know.

 

[irishcoffee]

the first's plan?

kill all the potential slayers.

then kill Faith (none left to take her place).

then kill Buffy - being the last Slayer standing - and unable to pass on the mantle (not that it would matter - as all the SIT's would already be dead).

The First gave instructions to the Turok-han not to kill "her" - i'm assuming he meant Buffy - as it didn't follow her but instead went after the SITs. Keeping her for last?

Or is there something we're missing - a great redirect like Joss likes to throw at us.

hmmmmmmmmmm. i wonder. 😕

 

[Razekiel]

Switch their bodys, kill Buffy with Faith inside, then kill Faith with Buffy inside.

 

[Leshy]

Originally posted by nerd4hire
You tell me you can assure me that in the Buffyverse, ex-Slayers are not at all theoretical. Can you do better than assure me? Can you prove it to me.

As has been stated before, there have been a good amount of Slayers who got killed. Which now makes them ex-Slayers 😉

My theory suggests the rules governing that line have been thrown out of wack. As such anything is possible. The rules no longer apply.

There is however, no reason to believe that the rules have been broken.

Slayer X dies, Buffy is chosen.
Buffy dies, Kendra is chosen.
Buffy resurrected.
Kendra dies, Faith is chosen.
Buffy dies, no new slayer is chosen.
Buffy resurrected.

The fact that Kendra's death did cause a new slayer to be chosen after Buffy's first resurrection, and that Buffy's second death did not cause a new slayer to be chosen, seems to indicate that the line of Slayers is still following the rules, despite Buffy being alive.

You tell me, "Either there is only one current Slayer, or there are three."

No. There are two. Kendra is dead.

If Buffy is still the Slayer as you believe, then her second death should have summoned another slayer, which would mean that there's three slayers. So either only Faith is the slayer, or there are three.

You tell me what the eye said is open to several interpretations. This is true, but what Giles said is not.

There is still a strong theory going on that Giles may not be who he seems to be. Even if it is the real Giles, he has simply drawn one conclusion from the many conclusions that the eye presented - the one that seemed most logical to him. That does not mean he has interpreted the eye's words correctly.

As far as your intrerpretation of Occam's Razor goes, if I understand it correctly you seem to be saying Occam is telling us any theoretical concept is wrong by the very nature of theorizing.

There is nothing wrong with theorizing according to Occam's Razor. But it is telling us that simple solutions are often the correct ones - that there isn't always reason to come up with a very detailed intricate plot.

BTW. Recent to an ancient being like the oracle is 5 years.

Point taken. I still feel that 5 years is a bit long for the First Evil to react though. If Buffy's being alive was the opportunity it needed, then it's plans would have been foiled if the scoobies hadn't resurrected Buffy a second time. Somehow I have a hard time imagining the First Evil to draw up a strict 6-year plan to hold to:

First Evil diary
Slayer died and came back this morning. The time is right! Preparations for the coming of darkness can begin!

Crap. Some demon is going to suck the world into hell. How am I going to take over now? In good news, random slayer has expired!

Fortunately that Buffy Slayer girl has saved the world. My careful plans almost went bollocks there.

What is that mayor doing, using my hellmouth?! And what is that Angel guy doing all soft? He'll give all my demons a bad name! Better take care of him. Maybe he'll even kill the slayer. In good news, new slayer is evil. I'm so bad.

Bugger. Forgot that I need that Buffy girl later on in my evil schemes. Also forgot to check weather forecasts. Mental note: buy notebook and write things down. Must be getting old.

Hellmouth now covered by rubble. Plans delayed until humans clean up.

Tried having a nap. Army constructing an underground laboratory; Sound of their drills gives me headache and prevents me from sleeping. Maybe they could clear up rubble?

Glory dropped by. Apparently she's after the slayer. If I wasn't stuck under this rubble, I'd send her back to her own dimension, I need that slayer. And ask her out. I'd first ask her out, then send her back. Glory, not the slayer.

Damn it. Buffy died. All plans out of the window. What are the chances of this happening again? I'll be stuck here for another thousand years for sure.

Excellent! Those pesky kids have resurrected Buffy. Again. Brought plans back into action, will be ready to take over the world in just a year now. Hellmouth also cleared of rubble in preparation of new construction. Better stock up on aspirin.

Argh! They sing! Wait until my terror rains down on earth!

I suspect the Turok-han cheats at cards. Not much for conversation anyway.

Well, dear diary. Today is the day. I'm going to take over the world!

Originally posted by nerd4hire
Now let me tell you what a slayer is as defined by the Buffy series.

The Slayer = The Chosen One.

The Slayer, according to the series, is a girl chosen to fight against the evil demons until she dies, at which point a new girl is chosen. When Buffy died, she ceased to be the chosen one, the chosen one was Kendra. And when Kendra died, the chosen one became Faith, which she still is.

The fact that Buffy has come back from the dead seems to have no effect whatsoever on the line of succession among the slayers, just as is to be expected.

In addition, the fact that Joss Whedon carefully avoids naming Buffy anywhere: "the slayer", "her" indicates that he may have something entirely different up his sleeve.

 

[nerd4hire]

It's real simple.

If the writers of BTVS tell us Buffy is still the slayer, even after she died twice, then we are forced to believe she is. We can only try to figure out how that may be.

Every character in the series refers to Buffy as the slayer, with one notable exception--the watcher's council.

In Never Leave Me the council refers to Buffy as "the girl". The council does however authorize Buffy to act as slayer to fight Glory in season 5. They reinstate Giles as Buffy's watcher at full salary. In NLM the council is going to go to Sunnydale to offer Council. They are not going to the prison where Faith is.

The council does have a devious side, so it is possible they planned to recognize Buffy as the slayer even though they did not think she was.

Giles however, is privy to the same information as the council on what defines a slayer. He refers to Buffy as the slayer all the time.

What the series is telling us then is either both Buffy and Faith are THE slayer, or they are not.

None of this matters. The only purpose of my theory is to describe the mechanics how the explaintion Giles (should this Giles turn out to be the real Giles) brings back from the eye on what has activated the First Evil could come to pass.

Again, the theory goes like this. The presence of two slayers in the same time at the same place has caused a gradual corruption in the natural law governing slayers.

We know this would have happened since season 3, because in Amends the First wants to kill Buffy. According to the theory Buffy must remain alive at least until the SITs are killed.

This tells us the corruption had not kicked in during Kendra's time as slayer, or Faith's early days as slayer. Therefore the corruption is gradual.

Understand mine is only a theory to explain a possibility. To discredit the theory you must first show how it is not possible that the presence of 2 slayers could cause a gradual corruption in the natural law governing slayers. Either that or show me how the theory does not explain the mechanics of how the corruption could possibly be exploited.

If all you can offer me however is Buffy is an ex-slayer. That won't get it done. BTVS never tells us that is the case.

Explaining the line of slayer succession to me ad nauseum will not get it done either. My theory stipulates the line of succession may have become corrupted and no longer applies.