I Will Remember You

[Fenrik]

This is my favorite Angel episode!

Watching this for the first time actually ALMOST made me cry! Something that never happens when watching sad movies. lol! I don`t know if all of you are aware of this (probably! lol!), but have you noticed that David actually calls Buffy Sarah? It`s like they`re crying for real and you can hear David say something like "please, Sarah please"

And I was so glad they used the good old Buffy/Angel love theme from season 2 and not that horrible version they made for season 3.

 

[Username]

This is my favorite Angel episode!

Watching this for the first time actually ALMOST made me cry! Something that never happens when watching sad movies. lol! I don`t know if all of you are aware of this (probably! lol!), but have you noticed that David actually calls Buffy Sarah? It`s like they`re crying for real and you can hear David say something like "please, Sarah please"

And I was so glad they used the good old Buffy/Angel love theme from season 2 and not that horrible version they made for season 3.

What?! I've never noticed that, now I have to go watch the episode

 

[Abby27]

Anyone else get a little erked by the way Cordelia talks about Buffy and Angel, especially in this ep? I mean, I'm not Bangel particularly, but the way she so nonchalantly talks about how they punch out their problems: Cordelia has always been wishy washy, and Buffy and Angel have always had a level of angst, but besides when he was Angelus, they never would actually fight each other when it came to their problems. For me, that comment just watered down the entire Buffy/Angel relationship.

Which, I guess was needed to fill in 3 years of back story in a few seconds and because again, early Cordelia is often one to simplify things to the point of inaccuracy.

 

[LadyLavinia]

Anyone else get a little erked by the way Cordelia talks about Buffy and Angel, especially in this ep? I mean, I'm not Bangel particularly, but the way she so nonchalantly talks about how they punch out their problems: Cordelia has always been wishy washy, and Buffy and Angel have always had a level of angst, but besides when he was Angelus, they never would actually fight each other when it came to their problems. For me, that comment just watered down the entire Buffy/Angel relationship.

Didn't bother me one bit. It's Cordelia. I don't recall her having any happy memories of Angel and Buffy's relationship.


What I find perverse and disgusting about this episode is that many found Angel's actions regarding Buffy's memories as something "romantically tragic". It was tragic, all right. Buffy became a victim of psychic rape and she doesn't even know it. What Angel had the PTB do to her made me sick to my stomach. Worse, he never told her what happened. He never even told Cordelia that she had been a victim of the memory swipe, as well. He only told Doyle. And I cannot help but wonder why.

 

[Taake]

Anyone else get a little erked by the way Cordelia talks about Buffy and Angel, especially in this ep? I mean, I'm not Bangel particularly, but the way she so nonchalantly talks about how they punch out their problems: Cordelia has always been wishy washy, and Buffy and Angel have always had a level of angst, but besides when he was Angelus, they never would actually fight each other when it came to their problems. For me, that comment just watered down the entire Buffy/Angel relationship.

Which, I guess was needed to fill in 3 years of back story in a few seconds and because again, early Cordelia is often one to simplify things to the point of inaccuracy.

Hm, I've only ever found it humorous actually. Like you said - Cordy is the master at simplifying things. Inaccurately perhaps but funny 🙂

What I find perverse and disgusting about this episode is that many found Angel's actions regarding Buffy's memories as something "romantically tragic". It was tragic, all right. Buffy became a victim of psychic rape and she doesn't even know it. What Angel had the PTB do to her made me sick to my stomach. Worse, he never told her what happened. He never even told Cordelia that she had been a victim of the memory swipe, as well. He only told Doyle. And I cannot help but wonder why.

So what do you suggest he should have done instead? Told her and thus torture her with the knowledge of partial amnesia that she could never retrieve?

And as for Cordy he might have told her off-screen for all we know and besides - it's not really her business is it?

 

[LadyLavinia]

So what do you suggest he should have done instead? Told her and thus torture her with the knowledge of partial amnesia that she could never retrieve?

Yes! That's exactly what he should have done. In fact, he should not have had her memories erased in the first place. Knowing that Angel had her memories erased would have hurt Buffy, but that's just too damn bad! Life hurts. It's painful. And one cannot go through life avoiding the pain, because it's impossible to do so. Buffy may have found it difficult to forgive him. But hey! She managed to forgive Willow for the psychic rape in "Tabula Rasa". She would have eventually forgiven Angel. Or not. But he was too cowardly to tell her the truth.

And as for Cordy he might have told her off-screen for all we know and besides - it's not really her business is it?

Yes it was Cordy's business. Because her memories were erased, as well. She was also a victim. What are you doing? Advocating psychic rape? Trying to turn it into something romantic, because Angel was the one who consented the act?

The worst thing about the act only convinced me that he was nothing more than a controlling ass.

 

[Taake]

Yes! That's exactly what he should have done. In fact, he should not have had her memories erased in the first place. Knowing that Angel had her memories erased would have hurt Buffy, but that's just too damn bad! Life hurts. It's painful. And one cannot go through life avoiding the pain, because it's impossible to do so. Buffy may have found it difficult to forgive him. But hey! She managed to forgive Willow for the psychic rape in "Tabula Rasa". She would have eventually forgiven Angel. Or not. But he was too cowardly to tell her the truth.

Well I agree with you that Buffy should have gotten to know cause I think she had a right to however.... As for not erasing them... it kind of needed to be done. Angel made a judgement call and then after the fact made a second judgement call choosing not to tell Buffy to spare her pain which would possibly have hindered her from moving on.
He didn't do it with malicious intent.

Yes it was Cordy's business. Because her memories were erased, as well. She was also a victim. What are you doing? Advocating psychic rape? Trying to turn it into something romantic, because Angel was the one who consented the act?

The worst thing about the act only convinced me that he was nothing more than a controlling ass.

No, I'm not advocating that and I'm not turning it into something romantic. I was simply rushing out and did not elaborate my point - I interpreted it as her knowing what had happened during the day to Angel which technically wasn't her business.

Secondly, I do believe Angel or Doyle told her about the turned back day off screen, seeing as how they were rather close. Even if he didn't she would have found out during her time as a higher being and didn't seem to hold a grudge about that.

Besides it wasn't really something that warranted screentime, seeing as how it didn't further or belong to the plot.


Either way, I believe Cordy wouldn't have sweated if she didn't get to know (upon finding out as a higher being). Cause she was more or less a bystander just like the rest of the world who also had their days turned back. A mere consequence of a larger action. (something that could be discussed in pretty much any fantasy/sci-fi show who's played with this theme and not limited to Angel)

Upon finding out that she lost a day during which she hung out in a bar thinking that she had lost her job I really think she would've been of a 'okay, so what?' reaction. Again it wasn't done with intent of harming her and Cordelia would have understood and accepted that.

 

[VisionGirl]

Doyle did tell Cordy- they've discussed it in Hero. I understand his reasoning for turning back time (although sure, I wish he would've found another solution), but I don't agree with his not telling her. But it doesn't make me hate his character, or hate this episode. And can I say how much I despise the term "psychic rape"? Totally belittles the actual act of rape.

 

[LadyLavinia]

Angel should have told Cordy, not Doyle. Angel was the one who had sanctioned the Oracles to set back the day.

As for not erasing them... it kind of needed to be done. Angel made a judgement call and then after the fact made a second judgement call choosing not to tell Buffy to spare her pain which would possibly have hindered her from moving on.
He didn't do it with malicious intent.

Why did having the day set back needed to be done? For what reason? So that Angel can be a "champion" again? For what purpose? So that he can achieve his so-called destiny? To me, it was a cop out on his part. He never saved Buffy. His continuing presence as a vampire did more harm than it did good. I see no reason for Angel having to be returned as a vampire . . . unless it was for the purpose of continuing the series.

 

[white avenger]

I have never been able to understand how Angel can manipulate Buffy's life and memory in this way and be considered all noble and self sacrificing while Willow did something quite similar in "Tabula Rasa" and it was considered as being selfish and manipulative. Sure, you can split hairs and say that one happened, while the other was "un-happened" by the Powers That Be at Angel's request, but that in no way changed the fact that he, for whatever reason, changed Buffy's life without her permission or knowledge. Willow did it, and it was "mind rape." Angel did it, and it was "for the greater good," and "to save Buffy's life." I wonder if that's one of the things that he meditated on in that Tibetan monastery after she died anyway.

 

[Kana]

Angel should have told Cordy, not Doyle. Angel was the one who had sanctioned the Oracles to set back the day.




Why did having the day set back needed to be done? For what reason? So that Angel can be a "champion" again? For what purpose? So that he can achieve his so-called destiny? To me, it was a cop out on his part. He never saved Buffy. His continuing presence as a vampire did more harm than it did good. I see no reason for Angel having to be returned as a vampire . . . unless it was for the purpose of continuing the series.

From an outside the show perspective, then heck yes it was so the series could continue but within the show Angel became a vampire again for two reasons:

Angel wants to protect Buffy and feels he can't without his vampire strength. Now admittedly the Oracles don't say he would be able to prolong her life if he remains a vampire but he would be more effective as warrior for good. While supernatural strength isn't always necessary, it does help as shown in The Wish and Epiphany.

One does sense a bit of manipulation of the part of the Powers though. Now it's possible they send the visions irrespective of whether Angel is actively fighting or not, but it does seem strange that if they were meant for Angel they still sent Doyle a vision after he became human. It may have been a test of sorts. If Angel decided to go steady with Buffy and remain human, then he would have failed and he wouldn't be worth the PTB's time, but by making that sacrifice they saw him as a useful warrior for the cause. I'm definitely on the side of manipulation although I don't technically have proof, but I'd say they knew that Buffy would die anyway.

Anyway in short, I think Angel's intentions matter. Unlike with Willow, his actions were nothing to do with personal gain (no more than any other champion knocking about). The worst thing he can be accused of is being somewhat over protective of Buffy. Can his attitude be a little patronizing? Maybe, but gosh there are far worse things in my book. When Angel told her what he did she was upset but she still understood the sacrifice he made. As much as many of us wouldn't like it, if Buffy herself understood, I'd say what he did wasn't all that monstrous.

 

[LadyLavinia]

Why are you trying to make excuses for someone exerting their will upon another person - fiction or otherwise? Why? Because it feeds your sense of romance? There is no way I will ever view Angel's actions as heroic. I found it disgusting. And I find the fans' determination to make excuses for his act of psychic rape disturbing. All you have done is confirmed my belief that deep down, human beings have no qualms about forcing their will - physical or otherwise - upon another person.


Angel had no excuse. None whatsoever. I'm so disgusted that I can't believe this.

Yay for SMG being a Bangel shipper!

SMG must be into adolescent romance. It's a miracle that her marriage has lasted this long.

 

[Kana]

Why are you trying to make excuses for someone exerting their will upon another person - fiction or otherwise? Why? Because it feeds your sense of romance? There is no way I will ever view Angel's actions as heroic. I found it disgusting. And I find the fans' determination to make excuses for his act of psychic rape disturbing. All you have done is confirmed my belief that deep down, human beings have no qualms about forcing their will - physical or otherwise - upon another person.


Angel had no excuse. None whatsoever. I'm so disgusted that I can't believe this.

We cannot look at an action without context, though. had Angel done what he done to control Buffy for his own gain, like Willow did, it would be different. We could argue that his actions are misguided, or patronizing, but I don't think of it as subjugation or manipulation.

The other problem people have with Angel is that he has this macho attitude of having to be the hero. I think, like Buffy, he finds it hard to be helpless after all the horror he's seen. He can fight demons but not as effectively as a human.He's giving up happiness for the world and to give Buffy the best chance. Two powerful warriors fighting means that more lives can be saved.

Also, like I said, Buffy understood the decision Angel made. If she understood and Angel had at least good intentions, then I don't blame him that much. He also didn't have much of a choice did he? Swallowing the day with only him remembering was the only way the Oracles said they could do it, it's not as if he wanted to erase the day, it was a side-effect of being a vampire again, a decision he made to help protect not just Buffy but others. Look past the actions and try to look at the intention and the spirit in which the decision was made. Angel's not perfect, and as I always say, you cannot seperate the love from the lover, but I cannot deny Angel did what he did out of love, for Buffy and the world.

 

[Taaroko]

What a lot of people seem to forget is that it was never Angel's idea to take back the day or Buffy's memories in the first place. All he wanted to do was trade his own life for the possibility that Buffy's might be extended, a desire so selfless that the sister Oracle was moved to bend the rules in order to grant it, and said of him "This one is willing to sacrifice every drop of human happiness and love he has ever known for another. He is not a lower being." It was *her* idea to swallow the day, and it was *Angel* whose memory was tampered with. This was a reversal of time, not mass amnesia. Buffy never had those memories to begin with, once the day was reset. But unless it was going to happen the same way all over again, Angel needed to have the memories from the abandoned timeline. Which, again, was the Oracles' idea. They're the ones deciding how this works, and they're not exactly beings you can argue terms with. They told Angel how it was going to be, and he pretty much had to accept it or abandon the idea of giving up his life for Buffy's sake. From their perspective, it wouldn't be necessary or practical give Buffy the memories from the abandoned timeline too, so they might not have been willing to include her. For all we know, Angel wanted them to, but they refused. The scene ended before he answered their question.

But even if he went along with that and didn't try to challenge it, so what? Those are some of the most painful memories he has, because he actually had everything he wanted within his grasp, gave it back, and (as far as he knows) will never have it again. Why would he want to subject Buffy to the same thing if he didn't have to? He wanted her to be happy and move on, and he knew she was making progress towards that, but remembering that day would set her back from that a long way. He left her free to keep living her life without that roadblock of fruitless memories about a day that never even happened and can't be retrieved. Thanks to him, she got to keep living as if that day never happened--and guess what? It didn't. And telling her about it even if she didn't have the memories wouldn't do much good either, because that would just burden her with a happy "what if" scenario that isn't going to happen. Which would have been cruel.

What Willow did was 100% her idea, completely unnecessary, entirely for her own benefit, and actually did involve personally tampering with someone else's mind. All of which is the opposite of what Angel did.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

I did not care for the character of Doyle very much, but I thought the end with he and Angel was very good. That is the bit I remember most - excluding ice cream- from this episode.

 

[Taake]

Why? Because it feeds your sense of romance?

This is the second or third time I've seen this insinuation and I would appreciate it if you stopped belittling peoples opinions this way, it's judgemental and unnecessary. There are politer ways to phrase oneself.

There is no way I will ever view Angel's actions as heroic. I found it disgusting. And I find the fans' determination to make excuses for his act of psychic rape disturbing. All you have done is confirmed my belief that deep down, human beings have no qualms about forcing their will - physical or otherwise - upon another person.

Yes understood, but since you put it forth here it was discussed as it opens the floor others try to explain their viewpoint and interpretation. If you don't like it that's tough cookies, bu there's no need to pass judgements on the fan-base / humanity simply because some of our viewpoints differ from yours.

SMG must be into adolescent romance. It's a miracle that her marriage has lasted this long.

Again, I find this overbearing, condemnatory and really unnecessary

 

[Abby27]

Why are you trying to make excuses for someone exerting their will upon another person - fiction or otherwise? Why? Because it feeds your sense of romance? There is no way I will ever view Angel's actions as heroic. I found it disgusting. And I find the fans' determination to make excuses for his act of psychic rape disturbing.

I'm trying to understand where you are coming from here, because you definitely feel very strongly about exerting dominance over someone else in a lesser position, which your right, can be wrong (except of course unless we are talking about like, a boss telling an employee to do something within the parameters of their job. I think we can agree that's ok).

Now, the definition of rape is: "A criminal offense defined in most states as forcible sexual relations with a person against that person's will." So using that definition, let's look at it. It kind of seems weird to me that Angel made the choice to have everyone forget and didn't tell Buffy. He has all these memories and she doesn't, which, it's a crappy situation, either she knows and is heartbroken or he keeps it as a secret. But, when Angel and Buffy were getting together in the episode, it's apparent it is completely consensual - no rape there. And Angel wasn't trying to take advantage of her at any point during the episode, even when he knew she was going to forget everything, he was very respectful of her.

Now, I think you are mostly upset that he made the decision without consulting her. Which, yes, in a perfect world, she should have been part of the decision, but isn't one of major themes of show is nothing is ever black and white, there is a gray area and you just have to do the best you can. Angel knew he didn't take advantage of Buffy in any way for personal gain throughout the episode and so that's why he made the choice to not tell her.

But I will say this, even though I'm not as bothered by this as you are, I definitely am getting tired of Angel getting free passes throughout both series because he is still trying to redeem himself, I mean, at some point enough is enough.

 

[Willow My Love]

rewatching this EP and it breaks my heart again... 🙁

 

[BibliophileAnn]

This episode fills me with joy at seeing Buffy and Angel so happy and heartbroken when time is going to be re-set. It kind of reminds me of Surprise a little.

 

[Incessant4Buffy]

Me too. It always annoys me that nothing really goes right for them. I suppose it's a apart of their charm and their 'forbidden love'.