I Will Remember You

[Thamior]

Okay, I am a firm believer that sex with someone who's memories/mind has been altered is rape (OMWF...). However, I think this is a different situation, for two reasons:

1. At the time that Angel and Buffy were having sex, Buffy's mind was perfectly normal. She consented to their sexual encounter (and had a definite part in instigating it), she was in the right state of mind, and she was of legal age, something that can't be said for the previous time they had sex. The memories were only changed after Buffy had already consented to having sex with Angel, and, in fact, had nothing to do with the sexual encounters. Buffy didn't have sex with Angel because he erased her memories; she did it before. That is why it is completely different from Tillow in OMWF.

2. Although I personally think reason 1 is way more than enough to prove my point, I have a second (and new!) one nonetheless. Angel never had sex with Buffy. Doyle never took him to the Oracles. Angel was never human. I'll explain: what Angel did was not merely a mind-wipe. He didn't change people's memories like at the end of s4 regarding Connor. The actions that took place throughout I Will Remember You WERE NOT REAL. They only exist in the context of the viewer; as far as reality in the Buffyverse is concerned, none of that happens. If anything, Angel is the one who has fabricated memories. The things he remembers are not true, while everybody else remembers what actually happened in reality. So, even if Angel had had sex with Buffy after he went back in time - which is unlikely, because she was mad at him - Then it still wouldn't have been rape, because Buffy's memories were unaltered, since those events had never happened.

 

[Moscow Watcher]

Thamior - very interesting arguments.

I agree about #1 and disagree about #2. If nobody knows about you making something morally questionable, it doesn't mean your actions don't exist anymore. You remember about them. They stay with you. They affect your mind. They push you to act this way again and again.

I think one of the reasons Joss wrote the Twilight arc was to challenge your type of logic.

To prove that it's wrong to make crucial decisions for other grown-up people without telling them.

To prove that this type of behavior eventually destroys a person.

The first time, in IWRY, Angel did it to Buffy.

The second time, in Home, he did it for all his friends.

The third time, in season 8, he manipulated Buffy, her friends, her enemies - he built a world-wide scheme, torturing Buffy, pitting people against each other. The result?

I hope in season 9 Angel will stop listening to the strangers who tell him that he's special - whether they are Oracles or talking dogs.

 

[The Unspoken]

2. Although I personally think reason 1 is way more than enough to prove my point, I have a second (and new!) one nonetheless. Angel never had sex with Buffy. Doyle never took him to the Oracles. Angel was never human. I'll explain: what Angel did was not merely a mind-wipe. He didn't change people's memories like at the end of s4 regarding Connor. The actions that took place throughout I Will Remember You WERE NOT REAL. They only exist in the context of the viewer; as far as reality in the Buffyverse is concerned, none of that happens. If anything, Angel is the one who has fabricated memories. The things he remembers are not true, while everybody else remembers what actually happened in reality. So, even if Angel had had sex with Buffy after he went back in time - which is unlikely, because she was mad at him - Then it still wouldn't have been rape, because Buffy's memories were unaltered, since those events had never happened.

You're right that reason 1 is way more than enough to prove your point. The (lack of) consequences of an action should not be the (sole) basis by which to judge the morality of said actions.

I find it a little problematic that he's so eager to accept the Oracle's offer. His selflessness then becomes a bit of a paradox - Buffy missing out on true love 'hurts' her, after all. The same can be said for his actions in 'Home'.

 

[PassionBecoming]

I believe Angel was trying to do what was best for Buffy (as in "The Prom") even though it would hurt them both. They both new and agreed that they could never really be together AND keep the world safe. Yes, Angel could fight evil while human, but not as effectively and he would be one more loved one Buffy would have to baby-sit. I find him noble - he doesn't want humanity handed to him for doing nothing, as he felt he hadn't made his amends yet.

That said, I think it was the right decision, but it sucked and I cried. My husband then threatened to commit me. 🙂