If "Angel" Had Ended First...

[thetopher]

but since this specifies Angel going off while Buffy stays on then Spike doesn't burn. Unless you want all of these new characters to have no real affect on the outcome.

Myabe, maybe not- we're not asked to reimagine a different plot for S7, or a different outcome since I happen to like End Of Days/Chosen and the way it finished. I'm stating that we could have different character interactions, get rid of the annoying 'new' characters and have some different subplots without affected the overall outcome.
Simple really.

 

[nightshade]

Depend on where in the storyline they would have ended Angel, and how they would have changed it in order for it to be the last episode. The end of season 3 seems to be the changing point for most people here, with characters going over for season 7 of Buffy, but for me one of the problems with season 7 was the introduction of more characters, so I would prefer them not to have gone over and got lost in the storyline. The end of season 3 of Angel would have to change too, what with Angel being dumped in the ocean so unable to make any appearances in season 7!

I do agree that Angel going back to a full time character on Buffy would be wrong, that cast has already grown larger by season 5 and adding another character, one that had previously been the central character on his own show, wouldn't have been a good idea. Angel had never really connected with the other characters on Buffy and now he would have even less of a connection with them.

 

[Blaze]

Could have been a good season actually if they had replaces the potentials (or maybe just not have as many of them, cause I do like the storyline) and bring in AI instead. But god knows people would have still complained that this would have been too many characters to deal with.

But one more vote for Frillow. I would have shipped the heck out of this.

 

[bespangeled]

Myabe, maybe not- we're not asked to reimagine a different plot for S7, or a different outcome since I happen to like End Of Days/Chosen and the way it finished. I'm stating that we could have different character interactions, get rid of the annoying 'new' characters and have some different subplots without affected the overall outcome.
Simple really.

He can burn, then. Surprisingly my objection is that - if this is the very end of the B-verse - have him burn alive does sort of make him the hero of the universe. But, that's okay with me. How would you handle Connor? I'm assuming W&H, the mind wipe and all that hasn't happened.

 

[white avenger]

4) Spike would've stayed dead at the end of 'Chosen' (presuming the amulet had been found some other way) and not cheaply resurrected for convoluted reasons. He would've gone out on a high.

What was that that someone said to me in another thread about "shoehorning Spike into a place where he had no business? Apparently I'm not the only one with a shoehorn (or is that a pry bar) around here. But if that's the way that you see the show panning out, go for it. Fantasies are fun, and they don't cost anything.

I do like the Faith and Wes show idea. What with him being her original Watcher, it seems a natural. Hey, we could shoehorn Spike in there with them, he and Faith could hook up, and they could bring in a new Slayer for Wes and Faith to train, Wes and New Slayer Girl could develop a more than Watcher/Slayer relationship, and they could set up shop in Cleveland over Hellmouth Number 2.

 

[thetopher]

What was that that someone said to me in another thread about "shoehorning Spike into a place where he had no business? Apparently I'm not the only one with a shoehorn (or is that a pry bar) around here. But if that's the way that you see the show panning out, go for it. Fantasies are fun, and they don't cost anything.

😕
How is it 'shoe horning' by not breaking with established show continuity? You asked 'what if Angel had finished before Buffy?' not, 'how would Angel characters change Buffy if they came onto it?'

Apparently it isn't Angel-hate to deprive him of his own show for a couple of seasons, (I don't think so either but whatever) but it is Spike-hate to say 'yeah, that S7 plot stuff all still happens how the writers intended it because it was an awesome ending for him'.

Whatever. Logic is never a strong suit for a lot of Spike fans.

I do like the Faith and Wes show idea. What with him being her original Watcher, it seems a natural.

I liked their Angel season 4 vibe; rogue slayer and dark watcher on the hunt. It would've been a contrasting relationship to the whole Buffy/Giles dynamic. Non-traditional in a different way would've been fun to see.

Hey, we could shoehorn Spike in there with them, he and Faith could hook up,

Right, Spike loves Buffy so utterly and totally that he went and got himself a soul. It kind of defined his character for three seasons- more than all that humanity nonsense. But by all means, just have him hook up with any other character at the first opportunity just so he can have a 'relationship' with them. 🙄

Hey, Faith's another slayer right? Spike loves slayers...or kills them but whatever. But he always thinks he's got a deep connection with them so yeah, how could Faith possibly resist, especially after the whole 'accusing her of stabbing Buffy in the back and then attacking her thing'. Girls love that stuff.

See, I can be sarcastic too. 🙂


white avenger: Spike DID go out on a high. He burned up saving the world. Then he got over it and went to see Grandaddy.

By definition you can't 'go out on a high' and then come back and hang around for a while. Spike himself realised this in S5 of Angel, which is why he didn't go and see Buffy. He got it, and yet you don't. 😉

 

[white avenger]

😕



Whatever. Logic is never a strong suit for a lot of Spike fans.




Right, Spike loves Buffy so utterly and totally that he went and got himself a soul. It kind of defined his character for three seasons- more than all that humanity nonsense. But by all means, just have him hook up with any other character at the first opportunity just so he can have a 'relationship' with them. 🙄

Hey, Faith's another slayer right? Spike loves slayers...or kills them but whatever. But he always thinks he's got a deep connection with them so yeah, how could Faith possibly resist, especially after the whole 'accusing her of stabbing Buffy in the back and then attacking her thing'. Girls love that stuff.

See, I can be sarcastic too. 🙂


white avenger: Spike DID go out on a high. He burned up saving the world. Then he got over it and went to see Grandaddy.

By definition you can't 'go out on a high' and then come back and hang around for a while. Spike himself realised this in S5 of Angel, which is why he didn't go and see Buffy. He got it, and yet you don't. 😉

Logic is the Spuffy shipper's watchword. How could it possibly be logical for us to willingly allow the removal of a character who we think so much of? Doing so would be illogical, and I should know, because I'm also a huge Spock fan.

Buffy loved Angel. That didn't stop her from hooking up with Riley. Angel loves Buffy. That didn't stop him from forming a relationship with Cordy that many people support as a valid ship. It also didn't stop him from hooking up with Nina, and promising to meet her after the final battle of Season 5. Spike is a normal, verile vampire with a soul. Where's that logic of yours that says that he has to live like a monk? Faith has already demonstrated in Season 7 that she wouldn't be opposed to the idea. They're grown ups. Have you ever heard the term, "friends with benefits?" Besides which, they share something in common. They're both in love with Buffy. Lasting relationships have been founded on much less.

"Going out on a high," then coming back has been accomplished many times by fictional characters, including Ogier the Dane, Hercules, Batman, Sherlock Holmes, James Bond, Spock, Captain America and even Superman, to name just a few. If they can do it, Spike can do it too, and he'll be in great company.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

I'm also a huge Spock fan..

That's a new one to me.. I wouldnt really care for the ship but whatever floats your boat

 

[thetopher]

Logic is the Spuffy shipper's watchword. How could it possibly be logical for us to willingly allow the removal of a character who we think so much of?

Still, bizarrely, you accused my of 'shoe-horning' a character death in that was already there- that's the illogic I was refering to. Quite frankly you were talking nonsense, but I decided to humour you anyway.

Buffy loved Angel. That didn't stop her from hooking up with Riley. Angel loves Buffy. That didn't stop him from forming a relationship with Cordy that many people support as a valid ship.

Time. All that 'moving on' stuff happened after a season of so for Buffy and much, much longer for Angel. And we're supposed to believe that Spike just jumps on the...actually I can totally see a character THAT shallow doing just that.

I don't however, see Faith trying to get with yet another Buffy ex- she'd want something else, something of her own.
Something better to be quite honest.

Faith has already demonstrated in Season 7 that she wouldn't be opposed to the idea.

Initial sexual chemistry then a big argument/brawl and then they don't talk to each other for a year and a half. When they do Faith basically tells Spike to grow up. At the end of the day I don't think he's her type. Buffy is the one that dates vampires.

"Going out on a high," then coming back has been accomplished many times by fictional characters,

You obviously have a different definition of what 'going out on a high' means than I do. It means the character doesn't come back EVER.
And Spike has done nothing since his resurrection that even comes close to saving the world. He just hangs around other people that do save the world.

 

[white avenger]

Still, bizarrely, you accused my of 'shoe-horning' a character death in that was already there- that's the illogic I was refering to. Quite frankly you were talking nonsense, but I decided to humour you anyway.


Time. All that 'moving on' stuff happened after a season of so for Buffy and much, much longer for Angel. And we're supposed to believe that Spike just jumps on the...actually I can totally see a character THAT shallow doing just that.

I don't however, see Faith trying to get with yet another Buffy ex- she'd want something else, something of her own.
Something better to be quite honest.



Initial sexual chemistry then a big argument/brawl and then they don't talk to each other for a year and a half. When they do Faith basically tells Spike to grow up. At the end of the day I don't think he's her type. Buffy is the one that dates vampires.




You obviously have a different definition of what 'going out on a high' means than I do. It means the character doesn't come back EVER.

And Spike has done nothing since his resurrection that even comes close to saving the world. He just hangs around other people that do save the world.

Actually I was accusing you of removing a resurrection that was already there, but, since that resurrection would have taken place in the first episode of a Season of "Angel" that never existed, I'll let it slide just to keep peace and good humor.


Angel left Sunnydale at the end of Season 3, and Buffy was with Riley by halfway through Season 4. Not a very long time. Angel resolved to "move on," from Buffy at the end of "The Girl In Question," and the first scene of the next episode is him in bed with Nina, who is asking him, "Where did you LEARN all that stuff?" Not very long at all.


"Friends with benefits" implies nothing but the decision of two adults to enjoy a physical relationship with no actual romance involved. If something "better" were to come along for either of them, they would both accept it and part, still friends


Wouldn't you consider Buffy "going out on a high" at the end of Season 5? I certainly do, and she came back the next year. That's going out on a high, then coming back on a low, in my book.

Spike hanging out wit Buffy after coming back is wrong, how? Saving the world is Buffy's gig, not Spike's, not Angel's, not Willow's, and not really, up to this point, even Faith's. They've all managed to be helpful at times, but they all, by definition, "hang around people that do save the world," as in, Buffy.

Once more, it's a free world. Be free to let your imagination run rampant, and I'll do the same.

 

[thetopher]

Actually I was accusing you of removing a resurrection that was already there, but, since that resurrection would have taken place in the first episode of a Season of "Angel" that never existed, I'll let it slide just to keep peace and good humor.

In other words you were wrong. 😉

Angel left Sunnydale at the end of Season 3, and Buffy was with Riley by halfway through Season 4. Not a very long time. Angel resolved to "move on," from Buffy at the end of "The Girl In Question," and the first scene of the next episode is him in bed with Nina, who is asking him, "Where did you LEARN all that stuff?" Not very long at all.

You're being awfully selective here in picking Nina as Angel's example of moving on. Angel moved on from Buffy in S2- which is a whole year later, and its so often claimed by many that Spike loved Buffy more than Angel, and that she meant more to him because of how he went and got his soul for her.
But then I always thought that was a very shallow argument.

I could also argue that Buffy didn't truly move on from Angel until the end of S4 when she was firmly established with Riley, and Angel was established as 'the ex'.

"Friends with benefits" implies nothing but the decision of two adults to enjoy a physical relationship with no actual romance involved. If something "better" were to come along for either of them, they would both accept it and part, still friends

I could not imagine a more boring ship than this 'freinds with benefits' stuff, and I still think that Faith deserves better than just having casual sex with Buffy's ex. Hell, Spike deserves better than just casual sex- he got loads of that with Buffy and Harmony. How about a romantic relationship of equals?

Wouldn't you consider Buffy "going out on a high" at the end of Season 5? I certainly do, and she came back the next year. That's going out on a high, then coming back on a low, in my book.

No I wouldn't because the show didn't end when Buffy died and then she came back. It was simply a 'peak' if you will, just like her death in 'Prophecy Girl' and then coming roaring back to kill the Master- Buffy continued to do important, worthwhile things after both her deaths- saving the world for example.

Spike hanging out wit Buffy after coming back is wrong, how?

Not wrong, just...what's the word; pointless? Cheap? Anti-climactic? At least when Angel got ressurrected he went on and did lots of noteworthy things; helping the helpless, saving the world, having an impossible child, bringing about armaggedon again...these were big things that mattered.
Spike just seems like a spectator or a hanger on these days. Why is he important now?

Once more, it's a free world. Be free to let your imagination run rampant, and I'll do the same.

Hey, you're the one who called me out on my 'imagination running rampant' in the first place but whatever.

 

[bespangeled]

Time. All that 'moving on' stuff happened after a season of so for Buffy and much, much longer for Angel. And we're supposed to believe that Spike just jumps on the...actually I can totally see a character THAT shallow doing just that..

I hate to say it but Buffy was in bed with Parker just after starting college. But I don't think any the less of her. Not all sexual relationships are about romance, and little birdies. Look at Faith and Xander - or season 7 Faith telling Wood that she really doesn't sleep with a guy more than once. It's a lifestyle choice. I don't see Faith and Spike falling in love but I do see them falling into bed together. and into extreme like. Each one has a wicked sense of humor, a zest for life, a nontraditional way of looking at things, and they would probably enjoy egging each other on.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

I don't see Faith and Spike falling in love but I do see them falling into bed together

I don't see that happening at all honestly. A- Faith was much different in the last season than when she was more rambunctious, regardless of her bragging to Wood about it, you never saw it. B- she was generally turned off by the idea of Buffy sleeping with a vampire. I do not think it would be something Faith would want to do.

I can see them being friends, but cant ever imagine the benefits part.

 

[bespangeled]

I don't see that happening at all honestly. A- Faith was much different in the last season than when she was more rambunctious, regardless of her bragging to Wood about it, you never saw it. B- she was generally turned off by the idea of Buffy sleeping with a vampire. I do not think it would be something Faith would want to do.

I can see them being friends, but cant ever imagine the benefits part.

The one scene with them in the basement had more spark per minute should be legal.

You know, not all love is romantic love - and not everyone wants romantic love. Love is actions - not feelings, and there are many kinds of love, even sexual love, that just aren't hearts and flowers, or tears and tragedy, or drama and despair. Having a comfortable relationship with someone you can be with and explore other areas of your life is not a bad thing. Put it this way - look around your life - how many people do you know who have that wonderful deep meaningful true love. Extrapolate.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

You know, not all love is romantic love - and not everyone wants romantic love.

And not everyone would want a dead man inside of them either. That's all I am saying. I still dont see them 'falling into bed together'

Yeah, there was spark but I never got a sexual feeling. In fact the spark I contribute to to really good actors having good chemistry. Their scenes felt more 'real' than anything she had with SMG.

 

[white avenger]

In other words you were wrong. 😉



. Angel moved on from Buffy in S2- which is a whole year later,




I could not imagine a more boring ship than this 'freinds with benefits' stuff,



the show didn't end when Buffy died and then she came back.



At least when Angel got resurrected he went on and did lots of noteworthy things; helping the helpless, saving the world, having an impossible child, bringing about Armageddon again...these were big things that mattered.


Spike just seems like a spectator or a hanger on these days. Why is he important now?



Hey, you're the one who called me out on my 'imagination running rampant' in the first place but whatever.

There's nothing bad about being wrong. I've been wrong several times, and I've never been afraid to admit it. Reluctant, yes, but never afraid.



Lots of folks fully enjoy being in a friends with benefits type relationship. Just because you find it boring is no indication that Spike and Faith would feel the same way. In fact, I think that Faith might find it much more enjoyable than a succession of one night stands with strangers, which is all that we have seen her have since the character was introduced in Season 3.

Many believe that Joss actually did end the show with Buffy's death in Season 5, but then he was able to cut a deal with another network, so he had to bring Buffy back.

Why does Spike's story after regaining his soul have to mirror Angel's? Maybe Spike sees his mission as being Buffy's friend and the guy who always tries to watch her back. Maybe he sees helping the Slayer as being more important than helping the helpless. That's not what I call spectating.

And there ain't nothing wrong with a rampant running imagination. Most successful writers, including Joss, himself, have them. Enjoy it. It's a gift, not a curse. Maybe you'll be the next Michael Moorcock.

 

[thetopher]

There's nothing bad about being wrong. I've been wrong several times, and I've never been afraid to admit it. Reluctant, yes, but never afraid.

Except that you didn't admit it, you prevaricated when I called you on being wrong. But I'm moving on.

Lots of folks fully enjoy being in a friends with benefits type relationship. Just because you find it boring is no indication that Spike and Faith would feel the same way. In fact, I think that Faith might find it much more enjoyable than a succession of one night stands with strangers, which is all that we have seen her have since the character was introduced in Season 3.

But it's not interesting to watch was my point. Where's the drama?
And while I agree that in general both these character might enjoy being in that kind of relationship Faith would never try it on with yet another of Buffy ex's (we saw that she didn't in A&F- she turned Spike down for pretty much that exact reason)- in fact its why I don't particularly ship Faingel, their better off as friends.
As for Spike maybe he shouldn't rebound from one slayer with another.

It's one ship I never see the appeal of to be honest but whatever.

Many believe that Joss actually did end the show with Buffy's death in Season 5, but then he was able to cut a deal with another network, so he had to bring Buffy back.

Many may well believe this (I don't) but the fact remains that she did return from death- we still have two whole seasons afterwards to enjoy. Buffy came back and I for one am glad she did. She continued to do worthwhile things after her return- like defeating the First.

Why does Spike's story after regaining his soul have to mirror Angel's?

I doesn't have to 'mirror Angel', it just has to matter- I've seen nothing after 'Chosen' that convinces me that Spike is 'vital' to the Buffy-verse.
Hey, I'm still holding out hope that their going somewhere with Giles ressurrection but it's not looking good.

Maybe Spike sees his mission as being Buffy's friend and the guy who always tries to watch her back. Maybe he sees helping the Slayer as being more important than helping the helpless.

Buffy has plenty of friends besides Spike who love and care for her. As for 'watching her back' (translate- being 'Stalky the clown') - ressurrection should maybe mean something more than hanging around the girl you like, hoping that she finally notices you- that's what Spike's goal seems to be these days. It's a little sad.

And there ain't nothing wrong with a rampant running imagination.

Again, I was fine just stating my own view point until you starting this whole thing. Trying to throw my own words back at me didn't really work when it turned out that it didn't make any sense.