If "Angel" hadn't lasted...

[Moscow Watcher]

Interesting thread!

Well, those who read comics know how Angel's return to BtVS would go. Maybe writers wouldn't have needed Glory in season 5 after all.

As to Cordy, I can't come up with an interesting arc for her in post-high-school Buffyverse. Of course, Joss would find a twist that would've made her fit. Maybe at the expence of Dawn's introduction.

As to Wesley, I don't think he'd return to BtVS. AFAIK, only DB and CC had the clause about returning to BtVS in their contratcs.

 

[white avenger]

Comments on this post
Kean agrees: You are very much underestimating our Slayer

I never underestimate the power of a woman. The strongest people I have ever known have been women.

But, as was illustrated in Season 6, no matter how strong Buffy might be, she is also human, and as such could become too dependent on others without even realizing that it has happened until that support is suddenly taken away. I believe that Miss K would be the first to admit that Buffy made some bad decisions after Giles left town. The same thing was almost certainly the case in the months between Seasons 3 and 4, when she was adjusting to not having Angel there to depend on. We just never saw it.

For all we know, though, during those months, she might have had a wild, destructive affair with Jonathan.

(No comments here about Jonathan's magic bone, please)

 

[Kean]

Comments on this post
Kean agrees: You are very much underestimating our Slayer

I never underestimate the power of a woman. The strongest people I have ever known have been women.

But, as was illustrated in Season 6, no matter how strong Buffy might be, she is also human, and as such could become too dependent on others without even realizing that it has happened until that support is suddenly taken away.

If someone is deeply depressed, to the point where they have no desire to live and actually seek ways to hurt themselves, they need the love and support of the people around them. Giles was wrong to leave Buffy in S6. The fact that Buffy made poor decisions during that period of time is an expression of her illness, not that she lacked maturity and relied on people too much. If anything, Buffy didn't lean on those around her enough.

I believe that Miss K would be the first to admit that Buffy made some bad decisions after Giles left town. The same thing was almost certainly the case in the months between Seasons 3 and 4, when she was adjusting to not having Angel there to depend on. We just never saw it.

She also made several mistakes when Giles and Angel were there giving their full support.

 

[zobothehobo]

If someone is deeply depressed, to the point where they have no desire to live and actually seek ways to hurt themselves, they need the love and support of the people around them. Giles was wrong to leave Buffy in S6. The fact that Buffy made poor decisions during that period of time is an expression of her illness, not that she lacked maturity and relied on people too much. If anything, Buffy didn't lean on those around her enough.

I feel bitter sweet about Giles leaving. On the one hand, I see why he did it and during my first watch, it was absolutely no surprise. I remember watching OMWF for the first time and seeing his face just before Standing and saying "he's going to sing about how he has to leave." And then he did. On the other hand, I feel bad she felt she had to go along with her depression on her own. Then I reflect on my own experience with depression and I realize that when I had people there picking up my slack and quite frankly, letting me depressed, I was more depressed. Self pity is a disease in and of itself. And when I was super depressed, I was self pitying at every opportunity I had. I let others do everything I was supposed to do and sat around feeling sorry for myself. And that only led to me feeling worse. It was when something really bad that no one could fix but me happened that I started coming out of it. I was held accountable for my actions and I had to do it myself. I had to stop sitting around and feeling sorry for myself long enough to do what needed to be done. And that helped more than I can describe.

So in conclusion, while I feel for Buffy because she was essentially alone in season 6, I understand why Giles had to leave and I don't feel Buffy would have grown as much from the experience as she did (meaning not only would she have not gotten out of it by the end of the season, but she wouldn't have learned as much from it and become the REMARKABLE woman seen in season 7).

She also made several mistakes when Giles and Angel were there giving their full support.

I think that's kind of missing the point. When Giles and Angel gave their full support, they "picked up the slack" after she made a mistake. AKA she wasn't completely held fully responsible for her mistakes.

note: I'm listening to Walk Through the Fire right now and I just finished the verse the Scoobies sing. They say this better than I do in that verse. "What if Buffy can't defeat it" "We'll see it through, it's what we're always here to do." THAT is why Giles had to leave. He sent Buffy alone to deal with Sweet so that she could be held fully responsible for what happened... but he couldn't sit by and let her get hurt. And he couldn't stand by and let others get hurt. He had to go for back up because of how he loved Buffy. He had no follow through, and therefore, couldn't teach Buffy what she needed to know.

 

[Kean]

So in conclusion, while I feel for Buffy because she was essentially alone in season 6, I understand why Giles had to leave and I don't feel Buffy would have grown as much from the experience as she did (meaning not only would she have not gotten out of it by the end of the season, but she wouldn't have learned as much from it and become the REMARKABLE woman seen in season 7).

I don't see Buffy that way. To me the more isolated she became the more she lost sight of her mission and her relationships with her friends. She became more slayer, and less Buffy. I fully believe that if she had had the emotional support she needed at critical times i.e. S6 and late in S7, she would have been a happier woman.

And I really don't think that Buffy learned any lesson in S6 that made her a better version of herself than she was before it. I think she survived it, but I don't think it can be called a lesson learned.

Given our respective takes on the seasons' in question, I am fairly certain we will agree on nothing here lol 🙂

I think that's kind of missing the point. When Giles and Angel gave their full support, they "picked up the slack" after she made a mistake. AKA she wasn't completely held fully responsible for her mistakes.

That's the thing though, I don't know what "slack" you are talking about. What did Angel or Giles do that Buffy passed off on them? All the big decisions, especially when it came to slaying, were Buffy's. Giles and Angel suffered, no doubt, but I don't know if any of that suffering was because they were picking up the slack for her.

 

[Icarium]

note: I'm listening to Walk Through the Fire right now and I just finished the verse the Scoobies sing. They say this better than I do in that verse. "What if Buffy can't defeat it" "We'll see it through, it's what we're always here to do." THAT is why Giles had to leave. He sent Buffy alone to deal with Sweet so that she could be held fully responsible for what happened... but he couldn't sit by and let her get hurt. And he couldn't stand by and let others get hurt. He had to go for back up because of how he loved Buffy. He had no follow through, and therefore, couldn't teach Buffy what she needed to know.

Considering that when Buffy screws up there is high chance she would die in the process, this strategy only makes sense if she knew she was the main character of a TV show and so couldn't really die and stay dead. And boy, wasn't it convenient that there was not a single formidable adversary in the entire S6, except for Willow who didn't really want to kill Buffy all that much and whom Buffy couldn't defeat anyway.

 

[white avenger]

I think that's kind of missing the point. When Giles and Angel gave their full support, they "picked up the slack" after she made a mistake. AKA she wasn't completely held fully responsible for her mistakes.

And that's my point exactly. As long as Angel or Giles was there to "pick up the slack" Buffy was allowed to BE slack, if only slightly, in an endeavor where the slightest mistake or slack moment could literally cost her her very life, and the lives of the people who she was trying to protect. There's a big difference between backing someone up, helping the Slayer in her fight, the way that Xander, Willow, Riley, and Spike did, and HOLDING her up, the way that Angel and Giles did.

And as far as taking responsibility for her mistakes, again, that is my point. Buffy HAS to be 100% responsible for her own mistakes. She has to admit to them, pay the penalty for them, and carry on from there, hopefully determined not to make those same mistakes ever again. Without knowing and taking full responsibility for her mistakes, without knowing and feeling the full consequences when she was wrong, she can never know and have the commitment to stand by her decisions when she knows that she is right. The most obvious example of that was when Angel came back in Season 3, and she tried to hide the fact, at least temporarily, from her friends. Years later, when Spike returned to Sunnydale with his soul, she didn't try to hide the fact, but even went so far as to defend him despite the objections of her friends. (And I'm only using that as an example, not trying to kindle another Angel vs Spike debate)

Angel has set himself up as Buffy's guardian angel and protector, and whenever he's around her, that's what he tries to be. The problem with that is that she no longer needs a guardian angel and protector. In fact, that's what she's supposed to be, protecting people fron the things that go bump in the night.

 

[zobothehobo]

I don't see Buffy that way. To me the more isolated she became the more she lost sight of her mission and her relationships with her friends. She became more slayer, and less Buffy. I fully believe that if she had had the emotional support she needed at critical times i.e. S6 and late in S7, she would have been a happier woman.

I think in season 7, she was doing the best she could to be the slayer and a human. And I think she did an excellent job. Like you just said "if she had the emotional support..." That wasn't up to her. In season 6, I think Giles had to step back and let Buffy pull herself up, but in season 7, it was the Scoobies' responsibility to understand that while Buffy is the slayer, she's also a human, which they did not. I think Buffy did the best job she could. (and this is why I love Spike haha)

And I really don't think that Buffy learned any lesson in S6 that made her a better version of herself than she was before it. I think she survived it, but I don't think it can be called a lesson learned.

I think she learned how to live again. She learned how to love herself and those around her. She learned how to enjoy life. If she had just survived, in season 7, she still would have been empty and out of touch. But she wasn't, and she didn't. She learned how to be in the world and enjoy it again.

That's the thing though, I don't know what "slack" you are talking about. What did Angel or Giles do that Buffy passed off on them? All the big decisions, especially when it came to slaying, were Buffy's. Giles and Angel suffered, no doubt, but I don't know if any of that suffering was because they were picking up the slack for her.

The biggest one I can think of: Angelus. To be clear, I don't blame Buffy for Angelus, but if you think Giles didn't help her clean up after that mess... And she admits she messed up. So does Giles. That was a mistake Giles had to help fix. Then of course there's leaving town at the end of season 2, which again, I don't blame Buffy for... but rather understand it was a mistake. There are also lots of little things both Angel and Giles did to protect Buffy and help "fix it" when she did something "wrong."

Considering that when Buffy screws up there is high chance she would die in the process, this strategy only makes sense if she knew she was the main character of a TV show and so couldn't really die and stay dead. And boy, wasn't it convenient that there was not a single formidable adversary in the entire S6, except for Willow who didn't really want to kill Buffy all that much and whom Buffy couldn't defeat anyway.

You're taking this a bit too literally. It's a metaphor for life. She had to learn to be her own person and not depend on others to be there and catch her when she fell. She had to live without a saftey net. And yes, I guess it was "convenient" that there wasn't a formidable opponent for her in season 6... But I fail to see where you're going with this. If you're doing what you so often do of looking outside the story to explain the story, I'm no longer going to even attempt to argue it. The story is the story. It doesn't matter why the story is the story, the story is the story. The writers have the autority to write the story (and therefore make the story) whatever they want. Therefore, what the writers say, goes. If you don't like it, tough. Find a new story. If that's not where you're going with that... I have no idea what you're trying to say.

 

[Icarium]

I think in season 7, she was doing the best she could to be the slayer and a human. And I think she did an excellent job

And I think she only won because the Big Bad from another show gave her a deus ex machina in the form of an amulet.

You're taking this a bit too literally. It's a metaphor for life.

So what? Are the characters supposed to know that and act accordingly or should they be concerned with keeping Buffy alive first and then with helping her get over her depression? A metaphor needs to work on the literal level too, otherwise it's just an excuse for bad writing. Any idiot can write a metaphor that makes no sense in the context of the show, so that's not an excuse. Good metaphors work both on the literal and on the meta level - like Angel being a bad boyfriend that Buffy literally sends to hell. If Buffy had treated Angel as if he was merely a bad boyfriend and not a serial killer too then we would have a problem, don't you think?

I think she learned how to live again. She learned how to love herself and those around her. She learned how to enjoy life. If she had just survived, in season 7, she still would have been empty and out of touch.

You mean she was vibrant and full of life in S7? Colour me stunned.

The biggest one I can think of: Angelus. To be clear, I don't blame Buffy for Angelus, but if you think Giles didn't help her clean up after that mess...

So Xander, Giles and the rest should have just left Angel finish off Buffy when she was in the hospital. This should have taught her how to be self-reliant, right? However, her being dead might have been a bit of a problem, come to think of it.

Seriously, this a textbook example of false dichotomy. It's not a choice between Buffy getting no help at all and between Buffy leaving all decisions to other people. There is a middle ground to be found and we saw that quite clearly in S1-5. The idea that Giles had to leave instead of trying to find the same middle ground again is a radical interpretation of the text. And considering there is that miraculous thing called a telephone and Buffy could theoretically always call him and ask for his help, leaving seems all the more weird of an option.

 

[Kean]

I think in season 7, she was doing the best she could to be the slayer and a human.

I can go along with this.

And I think she did an excellent job

.

But not this.

In season 6, I think Giles had to step back and let Buffy pull herself up, but in season 7, it was the Scoobies' responsibility to understand that while Buffy is the slayer, she's also a human, which they did not.

I'd actually say it is the other way around. It was Giles, and especially the Scoobies, duty to help Buffy out in season six. They brought her back. If she had real support in S6 the chances are we wouldn't have had an Empty Places type situation. If the Scoobies had drawn together in crisis in S6, rather than apart, I really think it would have changed the course of events.

I think Buffy did the best job she could.

In the circumstances she was and the adversity she was facing? Then yes, I do think she did the best she could do in that moment. However, I don' think she was the best Buffy she can be. It was all about the mission, everything else was second, even herself.

I think she learned how to live again. She learned how to love herself and those around her. She learned how to enjoy life.

I think S7 exists as the complete contrary to this.

If she had just survived, in season 7, she still would have been empty and out of touch.

For the majority of S7 Buffy is nothing but out of touch. With the Scoobies, the potentials, and mostly herself. The fact that she went with the Chosen spell, forcing slayerhood on thousands of young girls. Removing the right to choice that she has mourned since the day she was called? That isn't Buffy in touch with the world around her. And the fallout of it is S8.

She learned how to be in the world and enjoy it again.

The only time I saw a glimmer of this was that last shot and that smile. Glowing with hope and possibility for a future where she wasn't "The One". That was quickly snuffed out though.

The biggest one I can think of: Angelus. To be clear, I don't blame Buffy for Angelus, but if you think Giles didn't help her clean up after that mess... And she admits she messed up. So does Giles. That was a mistake Giles had to help fix. Then of course there's leaving town at the end of season 2, which again, I don't blame Buffy for... but rather understand it was a mistake. There are also lots of little things both Angel and Giles did to protect Buffy and help "fix it" when she did something "wrong."

But the thing is, Giles is her Watcher. It is his job to be there in the trenches with her. It is them against "the hordes of darkness". Giles and Angel were the closest people to her while they were both on the show, being that close to the slayer it was them who got the full brunt of her life. Apart from that, they helped her when she messed up because they loved her. Like any friend, father or lover would do. You stand with the people you love. Just as she stood by them when they messed up. Just as she stood by Xander, Willow, Dawn and Spike.

I mean, who doesn't lean on their friends and family when they mess up? I don't see Buffy's actions as anything more than that.

 

[zobothehobo]

And I think she only won because the Big Bad from another show gave her a deus ex machina in the form of an amulet.

And I think that's true. She was lucky. Is that what you want me to say? Everything in life can essentially be boiled down to luck. I was lucky my parents had good genes and high IQ's. I was also lucky I was born to a family that wasn't completely poverty stricken. I am lucky to have this computer. Buffy was lucky A LOT. She was lucky at the end of season 7, she was lucky in season 6, she was lucky in season 5. How lucky was it that Willow and Anya screwed up that spell in Triangle and brought Olaf so Buffy had the troll hammer in season 5? How lucky was it Spike made the Buffybot so Buffy had it in season 5? And even in the early seasons... how lucky was it Buffy's classmates were willing to go along with her plan in season 3? Is that even possible with still having a secret identity of "slayer"? No. Luck is a part of life. Accept it and move on.

So what? Are the characters supposed to know that and act accordingly or should they be concerned with keeping Buffy alive first and then with helping her get over her depression? A metaphor needs to work on the literal level too, otherwise it's just an excuse for bad writing. Any idiot can write a metaphor that makes no sense in the context of the show, so that's not an excuse. Good metaphors work both on the literal and on the meta level - like Angel being a bad boyfriend that Buffy literally sends to hell. If Buffy had treated Angel as if he was merely a bad boyfriend and not a serial killer too then we would have a problem, don't you think?

It does make sense in the context of the show. Buffy needed to pull herself out of her depression. I said you're taking it too literally because nothing did kill Buffy and like you said there were no real formidable big bads in season 6 (and yes, that was lucky. See above). Yes, Buffy could have made a mistake that killed her. But she didn't. She almost did... in OMWF she almost kills herself and Spike saves her. In this case, it was lucky Spike was there to support her. And she leaned on him for a good bit of season 6. But then even she knew she had to do it herself and pull herself out of the depression. She acknowledged that when she said goodbye to him in As You Were.

You mean she was vibrant and full of life in S7? Colour me stunned.

She was a lot more vibrant and full of life in season 7. She was well rounded... Buffy the vampire slayer and Buffy the woman had equal parts. She was who I want to be.

So Xander, Giles and the rest should have just left Angel finish off Buffy when she was in the hospital. This should have taught her how to be self-reliant, right? However, her being dead might have been a bit of a problem, come to think of it.

What? No. I was merely giving an example of a time Buffy made a mistake and Giles helped fix it... but the support was what she needed then. But there comes a time in a person's life where they must learn how to deal with their own mistakes. Had Buffy made the mistake of sleeping with Angel in the later seasons, I would have expected Giles (note, I'm not talking about Xander or anyone else but Giles) to be supportive... but not hold Buffy's hand like he did in season 2.

Seriously, this a textbook example of false dichotomy. It's not a choice between Buffy getting no help at all and between Buffy leaving all decisions to other people. There is a middle ground to be found

I agree. And this is where Spike comes in and tries the best he can. Giles can't find that middle ground because of how he loves Buffy. He says that to her "As long as I stay you'll always turn to me if there's something comes up that you feel that yuo can't handle, and I'll step in because, because ... (pause, sighs) Because I can't bear to see you suffer." He tells her straight up "I cannot help you find that middle ground." He of course doesn't know how absent Willow and even Xander are going to be.. so I'm assuming he's expecting them to help her find the middle ground.

and we saw that quite clearly in S1-5.

They had a middle ground of support and responsibility on Buffy in season 5? I think by then the idea of a "middle ground" had gone out the window. It was kind of "make it up as we go along" and in some ways, they put so much pressure on Buffy and she was held accountable for everything. And in other ways she was held accountable for nothing. Season 5 was a clusterfreak of inconsistency in this respect.

The idea that Giles had to leave instead of trying to find the same middle ground again is a radical interpretation of the text. And considering there is that miraculous thing called a telephone and Buffy could theoretically always call him and ask for his help, leaving seems all the more weird of an option.

It's not a radical interpretation of the text. He basically says it straight up! And yes, there is this thing called a telephone... but did Buffy use it? No. I think it was kind of understood that she couldn't. Turning to Giles was not an option after he left. Buffy knew that because he told her he was leaving so she couldn't turn to him. For an example: It used to be my job to help my sister with her homework. After I would explain it all to her and we did a few problems together, it was then time for me to walk away and tell her to work on the next couple problems by herself. So I would go in the other room... and she wouldn't follow me or yell to me or ask me for help because the whole point in me leaving was so that she could try it by herself. Same goes here.

---------- Post added at 04:53 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:47 PM ----------

I hit enter too soon on my rep to [MENTION=7585]Kean[/MENTION]. I'm glad I interpret it the way I do and not your way because it just sounds sad and depressing.

---------- Post added at 04:54 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:53 PM ----------

But the thing is, Giles is her Watcher. It is his job to be there in the trenches with her. It is them against "the hordes of darkness". Giles and Angel were the closest people to her while they were both on the show, being that close to the slayer it was them who got the full brunt of her life. Apart from that, they helped her when she messed up because they loved her. Like any friend, father or lover would do. You stand with the people you love. Just as she stood by them when they messed up. Just as she stood by Xander, Willow, Dawn and Spike.

I mean, who doesn't lean on their friends and family when they mess up? I don't see Buffy's actions as anything more than that.

See my post to Icarium.

 

[white avenger]

But the thing is, Giles is her Watcher. It is his job to be there in the trenches with her. It is them against "the hordes of darkness".

A biy off topic, here, but Giles was "there in the trenches," not because he was a Watcher. He was fired from that job because he cared too much for his Slayer. He lost his objectivity, by Watchers' standards. Watchers watch, record, train, and send the Slayer out on her mission. But they never, supposedly, develop any affection for them.

Anyhow...

The original question was whether or not Angel and Cordy would have been able to fit in back in Sunnydale if his show had been canceled after the first or second season. I'm not sure that Joss would have even written them back in as full time cast members. He might have done better just having them as frequent guest stars, still permanently residing in LA, only returning to the hellmouth when their business required it. Especially after Angel's speech about Buffy coming into "his town" and giving orders, he would quite likely have ben a bit reluctant to trespass on her turf.

As guest stars, they wouldn't have really had to fit in, in fact it would have almost certainly worked out better if they quite obviously DIDN'T fit into the small town routine anymore. Plus, there would have been all kind of opportunities to work off of the discomfort of Angel being in town while Buffy was still with Riley, and Anya jealous of Xander's former relationship with Cordy. That might have worked pretty well without them interfering with the existing story line.

But I still say that Buffy was better able to stand on her own two feet without Angel around trying to protect her from what was her job in the first place,

 

[Icarium]

I agree. And this is where Spike comes in and tries the best he can. Giles can't find that middle ground because of how he loves Buffy.

Yes, he can. Watch Tough Love where he tells Buffy that he is going to help her but Buffy's the one who is ultimately responsible for Dawn's wellbeing, not Giles. Or Innocence when he doesn't yell at Buffy but doesn't pat her on the back, either. The idea that Giles is totally helpless to resist Buffy's cries for help or that him helping her makes her incapable of doing anything right is a S6 invention and I really doubt it would have ever happened if it weren't for ASH's desire to leave the show.

I think it was kind of understood that she couldn't. Turning to Giles was not an option after he left. Buffy knew that because he told her he was leaving so she couldn't turn to him.

Well then he could have just told her not to turn to him instead of moving to another continent, don't you think?

Yes, Buffy could have made a mistake that killed her. But she didn't. She almost did... in OMWF she almost kills herself and Spike saves her.

And yet this incident somehow did nothing to make Giles see how dumb his idea of leaving Buffy deal on her own was. That's OOC behaviour if I ever saw one. He tries to let her do the job all on her own, the plan completely backfires and almost kills her, yet his conclusion remains unchanged. WTF, Giles? And yes, Buffy didn't end up dead but that doesn't make the whole thing any less stupid.

And I think that's true. She was lucky. Is that what you want me to say?

No, I want you to say that if "the best Buffy could do" was what we saw in S7 then she should never lead anybody, let alone be the one the world relies on to protect it from destruction. 🙂

Seriously, there is luck and luck. In S7 Buffy is bailed out through silly plot contrivances way more often than in any other season, her plans are Harmonyesque, her over-reliance on Spike is hilariously at odds with your idea that she learnt to be self-reliant and yet I am supposed to see all that as her improving and becoming a remarkable person? Sorry, can't do.

What? No. I was merely giving an example of a time Buffy made a mistake and Giles helped fix it... but the support was what she needed then. But there comes a time in a person's life where they must learn how to deal with their own mistakes. Had Buffy made the mistake of sleeping with Angel in the later seasons, I would have expected Giles (note, I'm not talking about Xander or anyone else but Giles) to be supportive... but not hold Buffy's hand like he did in season 2.

Well, I think your very premise is wrong since Giles did nothing of the sort in S2. Buffy had been dealing with her mistakes from the very start of the show. Her friends were way more likely to call her on her errors than they did in S6-7, especially Mr. yes-man Spike. Not to mention in S7 she exhibits quite a few times that she is living in a fantasy world - "Spike's trigger must be inactive despite me just seeing how he attacked Dawn", "Caleb must be hiding something important in the same place he lured me to", etc.

It does make sense in the context of the show. Buffy needed to pull herself out of her depression.

Wasn't going to happen if she was killed, was it?