If Angel's Series Had Failed...

[white avenger]

Lets assume that when the WB canceled Buffy's show after Season 5, they also canceled Angel. Joss negotiates with UPN to continue Buffy there, but they don't want Angel. Now, given that scenario, if the choice were yours to make, would you bring Angel back to Sunnydale beginning in Season 6 as a permanent cast member, have him appear as a semi-regular, in, for instance, 6 or 8 episodes per season, or simply make occasional guest appearances, something like Kendra did in Season 2?

Personally, I think that the guest star route would be the way to go for several reasons. Mainly, because Angel's character had evolved past the side kick phase. It's Buffy's show, so Angel would be once more, at best, second string. It would be a step down for his character.

 

[Kean]

I'd have had him back full-time on Buffy in an instant. Cordy and Wes too.

God, season 6 of Buffy with Angel? Now THAT is a season I would have loved to see!

 

[Mumrik]

I'd let him make guest appearances once in a while and say he's still busy with AI in L.A. I can't really imagine him coming back for whatever reason and I think his story on Buffy was finished, the same goes for Wes and Cordelia. Although I would have LOVED to see Fred in Sunnydale. She and Willow were so adorable together.

 

[xaphania]

I wouldn't have liked him back at all. I'm not really an Angel fan, and season six was depressing enough without Sir. Broods-a-lot 😛

In seriousness... I don't think he would have fit in well at all. What role would he have played? I can't picture it.

 

[white avenger]

I'd have had him back full-time on Buffy in an instant. Cordy and Wes too.

God, season 6 of Buffy with Angel? Now THAT is a season I would have loved to see!

Remember the "Don't come to my town giving orders" scene? That isn't the statement of a person who would willingly put himself back in the position of taking orders from someone else any more, especially if he brought his own crew back to town with him. Angel would be much better off heading his own group of rogue demon hunters, fighting evil wherever it rears its ugly head, with the open road his only home. We could get him his own motorcycle. He's already got the pink helmet.

 

[PrincessBuffy16]

I would like him to be regular. Cordy too. I think he's awesome character, and he grew up in L.A so much, so I think it would be nice to see different side of Angel in Sunnydale.

 

[Kean]

Remember the "Don't come to my town giving orders" scene? That isn't the statement of a person who would willingly put himself back in the position of taking orders from someone else any more, especially if he brought his own crew back to town with him. Angel would be much better off heading his own group of rogue demon hunters, fighting evil wherever it rears its ugly head, with the open road his only home. We could get him his own motorcycle. He's already got the pink helmet.

Who said anything abouttaking orders? The Angel that comes back to Sunnydale would not be the guy that left, nor should he be. In fact the leader Angel would be exactly the guy that Sunnydale needed in S6, Cordy and Wes too considering Willow and Giles don't really operate in their established roles in S6. I'd actually wager that a S6 with the Fang Gang would have been one filled with alot more hope than what we got.

I am so very tempted to write this.

 

[white avenger]

Who said anything abouttaking orders? The Angel that comes back to Sunnydale would not be the guy that left, nor should he be. In fact the leader Angel would be exactly the guy that Sunnydale needed in S6, Cordy and Wes too considering Willow and Giles don't really operate in their established roles in S6. I'd actually wager that a S6 with the Fang Gang would have been one filled with alot more hope than what we got.

I am so very tempted to write this.

The very fact that Giles and Willow didn't act in their established roles in Season 6 was the major contributing factor to the real theme of the season: Buffy finally having to learn to stand on her own two feet, and not depend on Willow to handle the day to day details, while Giles made all of the hard decisions. If they, or anyone else, had taken Buffy in their arms and cuddled with her, whispering, "I'll be here for as long as you need me," she would never have been the Buffy who was mature enough to make the decisions that she made in Seasin 7, decisions that required her to defy the very people whose judgement she had always deferred to in the past.

Season 6 was about Buffy growing up, and having Angel there would only have hindered the process.

 

[Black Eye Guy]

Bring him back as a regular, He would have been really interesting to see him back with the gang after his years away.

And WA Buffys growing up story could actually be better with him there, he basically takes over the gang and orders them around. Buffy tries to cling to him personally but he doesn't allow it, which still makes her do the growing up thing.

Plus in a perfect world, the opening scene for S6 would be Angel walks in, dusts Spike without a word, Willow hovers him up and he's never mentioned again!

 

[white avenger]

And WA Buffys growing up story could actually be better with him there, he basically takes over the gang and orders them around. Buffy tries to cling to him personally but he doesn't allow it, which still makes her do the growing up thing.

Plus in a perfect world, the opening scene for S6 would be Angel walks in, dusts Spike without a word, Willow hovers him up and he's never mentioned again!

(We have really got to get this Adopt-A-Bangel program going. There is just so much Bangel pain and pent up aggression here. All that energy needs to be diverted into a useful cause.)


Angel taking over the gang, assuming that they would stand for that in the first place, would only serve to lessen any need for Buffy to accept responsibilities the way she needs to to grow up and be prepared for Season 7. And Angel would NEVER refuse to allow Buffy to cling to him. He could no more refuse to comfort her than Giles did, and the only way that Giles managed was to put the entire United States and the Atlantic Ocean between them. If Angel was there, and Buffy wanted to cling, he would let her.

And since you brought up Spike, if he had been dusted in Season 6, he wouldn't be around to sacrifice himself in order to close the hellmouth and defeat the First Evil at the end of Season 7. Are you saying that Angel should have done that? And remember, with no "Angel" show for him to re-materialize on the next season, Angel's death would have been permanent, not temporary.

 

[thevikingsgirl]

Bring him back as a regular, He would have been really interesting to see him back with the gang after his years away.

And WA Buffys growing up story could actually be better with him there, he basically takes over the gang and orders them around. Buffy tries to cling to him personally but he doesn't allow it, which still makes her do the growing up thing.

Plus in a perfect world, the opening scene for S6 would be Angel walks in, dusts Spike without a word, Willow hovers him up and he's never mentioned again!

Yikes! Angel taking over the gang on *Buffy's* show? No thanks! And Buffy clinging to a man who "doesn't allow it" is growing up? Eeek.

 

[Black Eye Guy]

(We have really got to get this Adopt-A-Bangel program going. There is just so much Bangel pain and pent up aggression here. All that energy needs to be diverted into a useful cause.)


Angel taking over the gang, assuming that they would stand for that in the first place, would only serve to lessen any need for Buffy to accept responsibilities the way she needs to to grow up and be prepared for Season 7. And Angel would NEVER refuse to allow Buffy to cling to him. He could no more refuse to comfort her than Giles did, and the only way that Giles managed was to put the entire United States and the Atlantic Ocean between them. If Angel was there, and Buffy wanted to cling, he would let her.

And since you brought up Spike, if he had been dusted in Season 6, he wouldn't be around to sacrifice himself in order to close the hellmouth and defeat the First Evil at the end of Season 7. Are you saying that Angel should have done that? And remember, with no "Angel" show for him to re-materialize on the next season, Angel's death would have been permanent, not temporary.

Your getting our ensouled vamps mixed up there, Spike was the one who wouldn't turn Buffy away. Angel has already shown more then once that he knows, as things are at the moment, they can't be together, If Angel was there and saw Buffy come back from the dead, so what she was going through he would have been the same way Giles and the rest of the gang were, the only person who is truely selfish enough to do the exact opposite is Spike.

And about the amulet, since it was gotten through Angel taking over Wolfram and Hart, (Which never would have happened) I imagine the story would have been totally different!

and thevikingsgirl, I didn't really mean he'd take over, more he'd become the fighter for the show, while Buffy worked on her personal problems. I definitely think that could have been a cool Angel, get to explore more Buffy as the person rather then the slayer.

 

[ruth]

Hmmm..., hard to say, firstly i thought bring him back but the more i thought about it i thought no maybe just as a guest appearance every now and then, generally because he's grown up and in his own city now, part of him will always love buffy but i feel they have both moved on in their relationship with each other.

 

[Kean]

The very fact that Giles and Willow didn't act in their established roles in Season 6 was the major contributing factor to the real theme of the season: Buffy finally having to learn to stand on her own two feet, and not depend on Willow to handle the day to day details, while Giles made all of the hard decisions. If they, or anyone else, had taken Buffy in their arms and cuddled with her, whispering, "I'll be here for as long as you need me," she would never have been the Buffy who was mature enough to make the decisions that she made in Seasin 7, decisions that required her to defy the very people whose judgement she had always deferred to in the past.

Season 6 was about Buffy growing up, and having Angel there would only have hindered the process.

I see absolutely no reason whatsoever why Buffy couldn't "grow up" in season 6 without it "killing her", to use her own words. In fact I agrue that there are far more healthy ways for her to grow as a person and I think Angel and the gang being there would have afforded her that oppertunity.

Angel, Cordy and Wes would have had none of the baggage that the Scoobies were carrying around with them in S6. They wouldn't have been blinded by all of that. Angel, Cordy and Wes are incredibly perceptive and I wager that one if not all of them would have noticed Buffy drowning,not only that they would have pegged Willow's addiction too. Furthermore they would have had the strenght and conviction to do something about both.

 

[Lyri]

I am so very tempted to write this.

Darlin, don't you dare! We talked about this!!

I don't think Angel would have fitted in to Buffy's life at the time of S6...which is why I would have brought him back as a regular cast member. It's something I can see Joss doing, he likes to mess with Buffy's head as much as possible, and having Angel back when she's going through this would have been perfect ammo for him to play with.

Joss always said that had Angel failed in its first season, he would have brough Cordelia and Angel back to Buffy, so I'm not sure what would have happened here, as Angel would have been on S2 by this point, but I would have loved to have seen Cordy back in Sunnydale and her reaction to Xander and Anya. I've never actually gotten over Cordy and Xander ending, lol.

 

[Kelsey]

Well.... I wouldn't really want him back. I felt Bangel was pretty much well and over, at least on BtVS (someday's and maybe after's aside). The show wasn't really in the same place as when Angel had been on it. And Angel wouldn't really have been in the same place either--he had become a central character. I wouldn't really want to see him reduced to the boyfriend or the sidekick again, although knowing Joss he'd probably find a way to work Angel's storylines into the show. But that would take up valuable Spike screentime, and I admit I have an aversion to that! =P

I pick guest-starring, and only occasionally.

 

[white avenger]

Your getting our ensouled vamps mixed up there, Spike was the one who wouldn't turn Buffy away. Angel has already shown more then once that he knows, as things are at the moment, they can't be together, If Angel was there and saw Buffy come back from the dead, so what she was going through he would have been the same way Giles and the rest of the gang were, the only person who is truely selfish enough to do the exact opposite is Spike.

Up until "Once More With Feeling," the only two people who knew the truth about where Buffy had been were Buffy and Spike, and through that entire time, I can not remember a single time when he was not supportive and helpful, and I cannot remember a single instance during that time when he tried to use that knowledge to his advantage. He was, in fact, the only person in Sunnydale who was not totally oblivious to her grief.

And as for being "truly selfish," I don't see where allowing someone to beat the mortal crap out of you on a regular basis while doing nothing to defend yourself constitutes selfishness.

And don't bring up "Seeing Red," because that was nothing more than a plot device used to make Spike decide to regain his soul and totally out of character for both Buffy and Spike.

 

[Kean]

And as for being "truly selfish," I don't see where allowing someone to beat the mortal crap out of you on a regular basis while doing nothing to defend yourself constitutes selfishness.

When getting beat up like that is like 3rd base to him it can be called selfish.

Also, when he realised he could hit back, he didn't hesitate.

And don't bring up "Seeing Red," because that was nothing more than a plot device used to make Spike decide to regain his soul and totally out of character for both Buffy and Spike.

Everything that happens in an episode is part of the plot or a "plot device". If we start disregarding what happens because it was a plot device then we aren't going to be left with much of a show to talk about. If someone brings it up they have every right to regardless of what light it shines on the characters involved. You can't pick and choose your canon like that.

 

[Black Eye Guy]

Up until "Once More With Feeling," the only two people who knew the truth about where Buffy had been were Buffy and Spike, and through that entire time, I can not remember a single time when he was not supportive and helpful, and I cannot remember a single instance during that time when he tried to use that knowledge to his advantage. He was, in fact, the only person in Sunnydale who was not totally oblivious to her grief.

And as for being "truly selfish," I don't see where allowing someone to beat the mortal crap out of you on a regular basis while doing nothing to defend yourself constitutes selfishness.

And don't bring up "Seeing Red," because that was nothing more than a plot device used to make Spike decide to regain his soul and totally out of character for both Buffy and Spike.

Yeah but this isn't a Spike Vs Angel Topic, this is a What if Angel came back in Season 6, and I'd said Angel wouldn't have been selfish like Spike, and in Season 6 he was totally selfish, when their relationship started he should have know it was becasue Buffys life was sucking that it was happening and he shouldn't have done anything with her till she sorted herself out, but he was to selfish for that.

The examples you gave above were for Season 7 Spike, who as far as Im concerned was a totally different character, he did stop being selfish, but in Season 6, he just wanted sex with her, and didn't care about the reasons for it.

And don't bring up "Seeing Red," because that was nothing more than a plot device used to make Spike decide to regain his soul and totally out of character for both Buffy and Spike.

This had nothing to do with anything, so im not sure why it was brought up, but can't leave it haning there, as it's such an unfair point to make.

Firstly it couldn't have been more in character, your talking about the demon that killed 2 Slayers and loads others, tortured some with railroad spikes, attempted rape is within his character.

Secondly dismissing something as a plot device is such a load of crap argument, not to mention ridiculous.
We can also say The Mayor wasn't actually evil that was just a plot device to let buffy blow him up in the end.
You can't just choose to dismiss something as a plot device because you don't like it - although I see why you want to what with the beloved Spike attempting to rape Buffy not really fitting in so well with the "He loves her"

 

[white avenger]

Plus in a perfect world, the opening scene for S6 would be Angel walks in, dusts Spike without a word, Willow hovers him up and he's never mentioned again!

Okay, as you say, this isn't a Spike vs Angel debate, and I guess that I've been just as guilty as anyone about dragging it into another "Astronauts vs Cavemen" debate that can go on forever with no definite solution. So Season 6 begins with Spike in a dust pan. Wonderful idea. Much better world. Fine.