If Angel's Series Had Failed...

[ubi4soft]

If Angel was there and saw Buffy come back from the dead, so what she was going through he would have been the same way Giles and the rest of the gang were,

In the real show, Angel actually met Buffy and actually he had been the same way Giles and the rest of the gang were : ignoring Buffy.

 

[Joan the Vampire Slayer]

And don't bring up "Seeing Red," because that was nothing more than a plot device used to make Spike decide to regain his soul and totally out of character for both Buffy and Spike.

I can't karma you again but YES this is how I have always felt.

When getting beat up like that is like 3rd base to him it can be called selfish.

Kean, I truly doubt Spike got his rocks of being beat to a bloody pulp by Buffy in 'Dead Things.' It was clear he felt she needed to get something off her chest, so he offered himself ('cause that's what he does, he's 'love's bitch', remember?) He never even tried to fight back, or even run to protect himself in the interest of self-preservation. To imply that the only reason Spike didn't fight back in 'Dead Things' was because he assumed it would be poinltess due to his chip, is simply wrong, IMO. He allowed her to pummel him because it was what he felt she needed, not because it got him off.

Also, when he realised he could hit back, he didn't hesitate.

True, but this was earlier, in 'Smashed.' At the time of 'Dead Things' he COULD have hurt her anf fought back. Yet, he DID NOT fight back. Just sayin.'

Firstly it couldn't have been more in character, your talking about the demon that killed 2 Slayers and loads others, tortured some with railroad spikes, attempted rape is within his character.

Well, true, but many of us believe he had done good deeds unselfishly and had somewhat changed, hence what he did in Seeing Red being OOC.

Secondly dismissing something as a plot device is such a load of crap argument, not to mention ridiculous.
We can also say The Mayor wasn't actually evil that was just a plot device to let buffy blow him up in the end.
You can't just choose to dismiss something as a plot device because you don't like it - although I see why you want to what with the beloved Spike attempting to rape Buffy not really fitting in so well with the "He loves her"

We disagree, and that's fine. We just won't ever see how the stunt he pulls in "Seeing Red" logically follows the way he'd previously been acting and the choices he had made earlier.

And yes, we are guilty as anyone in justifying the actions of the characters we love. Give us a break! lol, we're only human.

 

[Kean]

Kean, I truly doubt Spike got his rocks of being beat to a bloody pulp by Buffy in 'Dead Things.' It was clear he felt she needed to get something off her chest, so he offered himself ('cause that's what he does, he's 'love's bitch', remember?) He never even tried to fight back, or even run to protect himself in the interest of self-preservation. To imply that the only reason Spike didn't fight back in 'Dead Things' was because he assumed it would be poinltess due to his chip, is simply wrong, IMO. He allowed her to pummel him because it was what he felt she needed, not because it got him off.

Hun, we will never agree on this and I love you for your dedication to all things Spike but I don't believe he is as noble pre-soul as you do.

In season 5 Buffy tells her mother that to Spike getting beaten up is "like third base to him". Also, in Lovers Walk Spike is absolutely distraught that Dru couldn't have been bothered to set him on fire before she left. He saw this as the cruelest of actions because to him it showed how much she didn't care. In season 5 again Spike offers to kill Dru as proof of his love to Buffy. All of this points to Spike viewing violence as an expression of love and affection. So no, I don't believe he took those beatingsjust out of the goodness of his heart, nor do I believe that he didn't get off on it, even just alittle bit.

 

[ubi4soft]

In season 5 Buffy tells her mother that to Spike getting beaten up is "like third base to him".

Then why did she keep punching him all the time? Denial, your name is Buffy.

 

[Kean]

Then why did she keep punching him all the time? Denial, your name is Buffy.

Any problem Buffy has her solution nearly always involves punching someone.

 

[Kelsey]

I think it's funny that so many people can get such different opinions about a character or set of actions. I agree completely with Joan, as I usually do (and hey, what's your real name, by the way? =P), and I'm sure many other people do, too. Yet just as many probably agree with Kean. I find it so fascinating that one character can be taken so differently by so many people.

 

[Flannen]

I'd have liked to have seen him back a full cast member. Along with Cordelia and Wes. I would have loved for the Scoobies to have seen how much each had grown and season six was in serious need of an injection of unity and friendship that Cordy, Wes and Angel would have supplied.

When I was thinking about this, I thought back to what Angel pulled Faith out of and, my gosh, if he could have been there in season six to have done the same for Buffy then she would have remained a character I liked. Angel would have been a perfect person for her to confide in and get her through it without the self-destruction.

Angel being back also doesn't necessarily need to have anything to do with 'Bangel' in a romantic sense. Like BEG said (I think) Angel would have helped Buffy and finally been able to show how capable him and Buffy were of being there for each and supporting each other friends and I don't think he would have sought anything romantic with her until she was actually mentally stable.

I would also like to see Wes and Giles (had he stayed) get drunk and be English together! 😀

Kean, I want to write this with you! 😉

 

[Eleftheria]

I agree so much with Kean and Flannen! If "Angel" was canceled then Angel, Wes and Cordy should definitely come back to Sunnydale.

In her worst moment in season 5(loss of her mother) Angel was there for Buffy,he comforted her, he stood by her side. Now in S6(if we consider that corssovers between UPN and WB were forbidden) Buffy needed Angel the most.She couldn't go to her friends who totally ignored the fact that what they did was selfish...and she chose to share her pain with a vampire she hated. I truly believe Buffy was possibly turned on by Spike...not because of Spike himself, but maybe because he wanted her so much.It is an idea I had after having watched most of season 6.

My utter hope and my ideal alternative season 6 would be this: Willow is already extremely powerful(she managed to bring a dead person back), she could also find a way to make Angel's soul stay where it is forever...no damn curse and stuff. And then we would see whom Buffy would choose to "feel something". 🙂

Now seriously...I agree with Kean that there are other ways to grow up. Healthier ways. Buffy did sth which was killing her. She felt numb and she couldn't deal with life itself. Angel had already evolved as a character. In season 2, he went through a dark period himself and he finally found the way to come back after mistakes and effort. He could help Buffy,I am sure of this.

And Cordy coming back...now that would be fun! Cordy is more mature by season 3(as mature as Cordelia could be) and she would surprise the Scoobies. And Wesley...of course I would like to see him with Giles.

And about Spike enjoying being beaten up,enjoying pain, I had always known that somehow.

Also I do not think Angel would ignore Buffy after she came back from the dead. And Giles didn't ignore Buffy. He just felt he should let her grow up,take up responsibility. He had no idea that everything and every Scooby would go to hell after he left.

 

[Wesley]

So Angel ends after 2 seasons with the Fang Gang + the recently rescued Fred returning to the Hyperion and there is Willow sitting at the entrance, forlorn she says 'It's Buffy....' the cello hits for the last time and it's over.

Narratively what next? Well as we saw in the beginning of S6 that the Scoobies had create an Ad-Hoc group to fight the forces of evil with Willow as the leader. Well, with AtS now canceled there just happens to be a Champion, his best Watcher friend and their conduit to the PTB just sitting around collecting dust. So I would think that instead of Willow and the rest fighting the good fight what happens is that Angel Investigations moves to Sunnydale to fight the good fight.

What does this mean for people like Xander, Anya, Tara, Willow etc.? It means that they have gone back to try to live somewhat of a 'normal' life and are letting AI handle the dirty work. Here's how I see it starting out;

- Angel along with Wesley, Cordelia, a shuttered in Fred, Giles and occasionally Willow are busy keeping Sunnydale safe working out of Angels old mansion.

- Xander, Anya, Tara, Dawn, and Willow have gone back to school and/or work and are trying to get back to living a 'normal' life.

- Gunn did not come to Sunnydale preferring to continue the fight in L.A. and protect his hood.

- Lorne likewise has stayed in L.A. to rebuild Caritas.

- Spike is now in hiding, with Angel the new Sheriff in town Spike knows that his get out of jail free card is no longer in effect and if the Fang Gang get ahold of him he can't make snarky comments and get away with everything.

Of course we'd have to find a way to bring Buffy back from the dead and a lot of excellent drama would ensue I'll try to imagine it out a bit later after work.

 

[TheVoid68]

I'd have liked to have seen him back a full cast member. Along with Cordelia and Wes. I would have loved for the Scoobies to have seen how much each had grown and season six was in serious need of an injection of unity and friendship that Cordy, Wes and Angel would have supplied.

When I was thinking about this, I thought back to what Angel pulled Faith out of and, my gosh, if he could have been there in season six to have done the same for Buffy then she would have remained a character I liked. Angel would have been a perfect person for her to confide in and get her through it without the self-destruction.

Angel being back also doesn't necessarily need to have anything to do with 'Bangel' in a romantic sense. Like BEG said (I think) Angel would have helped Buffy and finally been able to show how capable him and Buffy were of being there for each and supporting each other friends and I don't think he would have sought anything romantic with her until she was actually mentally stable.

I would also like to see Wes and Giles (had he stayed) get drunk and be English together! 😀

Kean, I want to write this with you! 😉

This would have been awesome. Buffy + Angel does not necessarily = Bangel. Angel could have been there for her as a friend, and helped her feel better, so that she wouldn't have had to turn to Spike. So no Bangel or Spuffy! Everybody's happy!